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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 09-01-2013, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totus44 View Post
+1 post #128, tip my cap to the head janitor.

I never understood why fellow 2A supporters flame each other. We've got to be open to minority opinions, otherwise we are as despicable as the legislators we rail against. We need to debate all opinions, and then work to align all gun-owners to a common agenda. We've got to take the high road and not take the bait. Once you resort to an emotional flame response, you have lost the argument even if to are 100% correct.
please !!!the op,s 5yearold posting skills is not the way to voice opposing opinions. there are plenty of others here like taperxz,tincon ,Kestryll and more that have different view points but still can post like adults.as far as i'm concerned,childish postings like the op's are not needed and less productive than opposing views posted with intelligence and tact.
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  #122  
Old 09-02-2013, 12:51 AM
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We should all thank Squidman or giantsquid, whatever his sn is...(seriously), lol. By him calling it "I told you so" before these bills are even signed or become laws just made him jinx it.
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  #123  
Old 09-02-2013, 4:37 AM
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Thx, Kes.

-hanko
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Originally Posted By System Message:
Why can't you guys participate in a simple discussion about some guy's mom making a porno without violating the COC? This is why we can't have nice things.



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  #124  
Old 09-02-2013, 5:09 AM
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Yeah I have no problem with dissenting views but 'our firm is better than yours' or 'are we there yet' hardly adds to the discussion. I appreciate the neutrality you're advocating on this forum Kes, it's partly why I joined.

I'm very happy to find another worthy org fighting for my rights; thanks for pointing out CRPA's involvement in these cases.


Last edited by naeco81; 09-02-2013 at 5:51 AM..
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  #125  
Old 09-02-2013, 6:19 AM
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Wow! After wading through this entire post, I am glad that it became civil again. The hostility can be disarming! I appreciate both points of view (sometimes even the juvenile and/or micro-focused); if you can't ask the hard questions you'll never get comprehensive and critical answers that can lead to new and enhanced strategic developments that improve your original position! We need the back and forth!

As a new member and a "Lady" Calgunner, IMHO, my observations are that there needs to be a great deal more education in our state with major outreach efforts. Politics bother regular people! We need to develop good outreach that gets beyond the emotions, the now-regular anti-gun media events and that will focus on the real and practical reasons for being gun owners/users. We need to preserve and protect our rights!

All the talk about law firms, foundations and organizations working on the legal/political battles...we should also engage public relations firms to assist in turning around this media mess! Get better messages out!

I became aware of Calguns via Google searches when I was doing gun purchasing-related research. From afar it was intimidating, sometimes crass and hosted lots of questionable opinions, even (dare I say...) BS! However, I chose to join anyway-because I thought I could increase my knowledge and improve my position as a gun owner/user. And, so far, I have! I can't imagine being a California gun owner/user today WITHOUT CGN/CGF/CGSSA! For that matter, NRA, SAF, NSSF, CRPA and GOA as well, if it helps our cause!
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  #126  
Old 09-02-2013, 7:13 AM
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While the Squid is certainly a Troll, and has a bit of a sour attitude, he/she brought a lot of replies, and I can only hope that everyone who took the time to reply belongs to at least one pro-gun organization, and donates now and then. The days of non joiners are coming to a close, you have to get on the right side of the argument, contribute, and stand up for our rights. I am an unabashed member and contributor to:

The Calguns Foundation
CRPA
NRA Endowment member

Stand And Fight!
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  #127  
Old 09-02-2013, 7:32 AM
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What, 4 pages and no Squid response? He's probably back at his post as Brady Campaign forum moderator.
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  #128  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cjc16 View Post
What, 4 pages and no Squid response? He's probably back at his post as Brady Campaign forum moderator.
Or maybe he did as I hoped and didn't go away mad, just went away.

I have no problem with an opposing point of view. What pisses me off are the armchair quarterbacks who never add to the dialog, they're just here to antagonize and gloat.

/rant
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  #129  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:41 AM
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So, Mr. Critic, do please enlighten us as to what YOU would do if you were the chief executive and dictator of CalGuns resources for the next few days...
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  #130  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
So, Mr. Critic, do please enlighten us as to what YOU would do if you were the chief executive and dictator of CalGuns resources for the next few days...
If you were speaking to squidy, I think he's tuned out of the thread.

If you're speaking to me I think we as a community need to reach out to more of those 7.5 million California firearms owners. Every visit to the range I've made in the last 3 months I've encountered multiple people that have no idea what's going on in Sacramento right now.

It needs to be a full court press, billboards, flyers, radio and television spots, quarter page ads in the Union Trib, Sacbee, etc.

We also need to get range owners, sporting goods and gun stores, FFL's to start having a conversation with every patron. During all of those range visits, not once did I hear the person at the counter ask the customer he was serving if they knew what was going on. There were a few Calguns flyers lying around on the counter and tables, but there has to be more effort to inform firearms owners.
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  #131  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
By the same token how many lawyers and law firms have been alienated from CGN and the 2A forum by the echo chamber effect and the hard core CGF supporters.

Even supporting CGF I have come to realize that was wrong and so was protecting CGF from negative comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
We should be as open to hear the concerns and criticisms as we are to hear the support and accolades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontClaire View Post
Oh great! Call us all suckers and we'll gladly jump to constructively criticize our foundation.
Constructive criticism is always wise and welcome, no matter what you're called or how you're described.


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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Imagine their surprise when they get a letter from the Cal DOJ indicating that they must register their 'assault weapons' or surrender them to local law enforcement. Lack of action is undoubtly more damaging than the attitude of the OP.

Just like the 2001 AW ban??

DOJ estimates 10 to 20% (it keeps getting a little higher) were registered then. The number of arrests since then is a very small drop in the bucket of those who did not register.

I'd expect history to repeat itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
So, Mr. Critic, do please enlighten us as to what YOU would do if you were the chief executive and dictator of CalGuns resources for the next few days...
I'd occasionally post on this forum.

I might update my website as there's nothing new there in the last couple of months.

I might hire an attorney who's familiar with weapons laws.

I might $h!t-can the one who, so far, has specialized in representing tree-huggers suing for "environmental" reasons. Before I did, though, I'd thank him for making sure that keeping spotted owls safe is partially responsible for this summer's wildfire devastation.

What would you do?

-hanko
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Originally Posted By System Message:
Why can't you guys participate in a simple discussion about some guy's mom making a porno without violating the COC? This is why we can't have nice things.



“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
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  #132  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:08 AM
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CGF did not have anything to do with Sacramento. that was the sheriff elect and his platform. the case was dismissed as moot because the new sheriff agreed to issue.
I like CGF, and dont agree with the OP, but Sacramento is not something CGF can claim credit for.
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  #133  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazdat View Post
If you were speaking to squidy, I think he's tuned out of the thread.

If you're speaking to me I think we as a community need to reach out to more of those 7.5 million California firearms owners. Every visit to the range I've made in the last 3 months I've encountered multiple people that have no idea what's going on in Sacramento right now.

It needs to be a full court press, billboards, flyers, radio and television spots, quarter page ads in the Union Trib, Sacbee, etc.

We also need to get range owners, sporting goods and gun stores, FFL's to start having a conversation with every patron. During all of those range visits, not once did I hear the person at the counter ask the customer he was serving if they knew what was going on. There were a few Calguns flyers lying around on the counter and tables, but there has to be more effort to inform firearms owners.
I wholeheartedly agree! In my experience, at various LGS & regional chains, there is much confusion in the discussion about proposed and existing firearm laws. I incorrectly assumed that I would get properly educated when and where I purchased my firearms! I tried, it just wasn't the case!

I think, as I mentioned in an earlier post here, that the Public Relations method (as you've mentioned above) is drastically needed to immediately disseminate factual and realistic information.

Knowledge is everything and I now try to share the importance of it all with my friends. It is too important NOT to share!
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  #134  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:34 AM
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C'mon, you guys know better than to feed the Trolls....
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  #135  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wazdat View Post
If you were speaking to squidy, I think he's tuned out of the thread.
The OP.
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  #136  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -hanko View Post

I'd occasionally post on this forum.

I might update my website as there's nothing new there in the last couple of months.

I might hire an attorney who's familiar with weapons laws.

I might $h!t-can the one who, so far, has specialized in representing tree-huggers suing for "environmental" reasons. Before I did, though, I'd thank him for making sure that keeping spotted owls safe is partially responsible for this summer's wildfire devastation.

What would you do?

-hanko
Resign immediately since I have no inclination to manage this forum or oversee its resources. However, I would keep my support forthcoming for CalGuns since I do think it does a pretty good job without my executive oversight.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the foundation already retain attorneys who are familiar with California weapons laws?
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  #137  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:57 AM
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I would be curious to know how much they received and how much they paid which attorney if I were to consider donating, which I might actually consider if I had that information and it may b=very be available since they are a 501c3.
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  #138  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:00 AM
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They do a crap ton more for California then the NRA ever thought about doing.

If you don't like them because they can't wave a magic wand and get rid of all of CA's insane gun laws then you need to brush up on how the process works. It isn't that easy.

If you want to be free from all of CA's gun laws right now, move. That's it, it's the only instant "CA gun law be gone" solution.

If you plan on staying there for the "great weather" or whatever reason keeps you there be prepared to loose more rights while the process oozes through the court system.
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  #139  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
So in closing, I'd just like to poll what you guys that actually donated money think about it now? Do you see the light and agree with me? Or will you continue to listen to the crook lawyers that now is not the time to give up and they need more funds? How do you feel about how much difference your donations made now with the Appropriations @$$ whupping?
Do you belong to the NRA? If so, why? You're just giving your money to a group that has been essentially ineffective in the state of California, right? How did they help us avoid the Appropriations Butt-Whooping as you put it?

Can you PROVE that the lawyers are crooks? Where is your evidence? Bold statements if you don't have proof. Were funds embezzled? What exactly are you saying? CRPA? SAF? Are they crooks too?

Are you familiar with the litigation to which CalGuns is either directly involved or peripherally attached? Can you honestly say that CalGuns has done NOTHING? It's not all about legislation. And do you think CalGuns will not step up to the plate with litigation pending the outcome of this legislation?

How many times did YOU call your congress critters, write letters, send faxes, meet with them directly? Everyday? More than once per day? Why don't you step up, start your own organization and attack Sacramento?

To answer your question, I don't feel bad about a single dime I've donated to CalGuns, SAF, NRA, or any other group for that matter. And I will continue to contribute when I can, which isn't often enough. Sounds like YOU are ready to throw in the towel.

Last edited by Dieter; 09-02-2013 at 11:11 AM..
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  #140  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
Resign immediately since I have no inclination to manage this forum or oversee its resources. However, I would keep my support forthcoming for CalGuns since I do think it does a pretty good job without my executive oversight.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the foundation already retain attorneys who are familiar with California weapons laws?
CGN and CGF are different entities not run by the same people.
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  #141  
Old 09-02-2013, 12:47 PM
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The people in california actively fighting for their civil liberties I give credit to. You all are the minority in california. I would give more words of encouragement if i could find them but the odds are clearly against the liberties of the citizenry. The recall in Colorado.You all think we could do what Colorado is doing? Is california to far gone? No nullification from federal tyranny? Other states and their elected officials are doing it.
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  #142  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:01 PM
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Wild Squid,

I donate because I want too. Do I expect to win the battle........... No.

Do I enjoy this forum, being a Life Member of the NRA, being a member of the SAF......... Yes.


Do I think you're existence is worthless...... Yes.
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  #143  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:46 PM
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Wild Squid your initial post was one of the stupidest and what appears to be least informed that I have seen on this forum.

1 - CGF showed a tax return of $120k for 2010. At that rate, even after 8 years of existence, it doesn't amount to $millions. It doesn't even amount to $1 million.

2 - While CGF has had some losses, they have had some wins as well. Pretending those wins don't exist or don't matter, which is something you appear to be doing, doesn't make it so.

3 - Your initial post seems to lay the blame for the current corruption in the CA legislature at the feet of CGF. That position is incredibly naïve and stupid. If the NRA couldn't stop it with their $300 million/year budget, how do you expect CGF to do so with $120k?

If you want to have a meaningful discussion of the most effective and efficient way to spend pro-2A dollars, well that is a discussion worth having. Your intention to "gloat" shows a fail on just about every layer of this debate that can be thought of.
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  #144  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
2 - While CGF has had some losses, they have had some wins as well.
Well actually, no they haven't.
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  #145  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:50 PM
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Hodor
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When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

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  #146  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:52 PM
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Hodor
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  #147  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:02 PM
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yes they have had a very poor record as far as overturning cailif gun laws,however they have made a difference for many individual gun owners as far as legal help,getting firearms returned,ccw aps,and so fourth.that alone was worth my donation.
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  #148  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:04 PM
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@Tincon: Hmm, local level wins like CCW's in Sac don't count? Successfully defending people from prosecution don't count? Convincing cities like SF to back off of anti-2A policies don't count?

I've been reading your posts for a while now. You seem hell bent on disparaging CGF, but you have provided little in the way of alternatives. When I asked, in another thread, about research on other organizations, you had little to contribute. Your posts are almost always negative and you are dishonest by omission. How about this: If you are going to come here to assassinate the character of CGF, you also provide decent, researched alternatives.

I'm all for a discussion on the most efficient and effective organizations for us to throw our weight behind. Your posts seem to offer little in the way of efficiency or effectiveness. So far, they have been little more than internet garbage.
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  #149  
Old 09-02-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
@Tincon: Hmm, local level wins like CCW's in Sac don't count?
Not when they don't exist. The only "win" that brought that about a change in Sac CCW policy was a new sheriff getting elected. CGF could not even get a binding settlement, lot alone a court victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Successfully defending people from prosecution don't count?
Oh, are CGF officers getting law degrees and representing defendants now? I think what you meant to say is CGF is collecting money from people on CGN and using it to pay a some people's legal bills. Guess what, that was happening right here on CGN long before there WAS a "CGF". So CGF is now handling what was basically the legal trust fund that some paralegal at a law firm used to handle. Standing ovation! And considering CGF's recent choices in counsel, those people might actually be better off with a public defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Convincing cities like SF to back off of anti-2A policies don't count?
When exactly did that happen? I know CRPA/NRA lawyers got an SF law overturned in court (something CGF has never been able to do by the way), but I'm not aware of CGF ever convincing anyone to "back off", let alone SF (who at this very moment is suing magazine importers in a totally BS lawsuit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
you are dishonest by omission.
BS. There is nothing to omit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
If you are going to come here to assassinate the character of CGF, you also provide decent, researched alternatives.
Take a look below. Seems like there is are several great alternatives right in front of you.

Obviously Squid's post (OP) is a bunch of childish BS, but your post inventing fantasy achievements for CGF is nearly as bad. We need to "get real" if we are going to win this fight.
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Last edited by Tincon; 09-02-2013 at 10:32 PM..
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  #150  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:31 PM
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Using progressive tactics now?

Take what an organization does and twist it into the worst possible light so as to support your position?

Why don't you provide us with your definition of success? Give us a clear definition so we know what you are using as a measure.

Please also let us know why collecting money and defending people against CA injustice is not a worthy goal. Let us know why out of court settlements that defend Californians are not worthy goals.

As far as SF is concerned, I am talking about their policy to limit gun rights ads on the MTA. Work between CGF and the SAF had them backpedal before the lawsuit even got started. Of course, you'll probably try to pretend the work they did on that had no value either.

I'll say it again: Pointing out failures as part of a discussion on efficiency and effectiveness can be valuable. Dishonesty amounting to disinformation is not. You clearly have a personal axe to grind with CGF. In this light, your commentary is growing marginal and tedious.
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  #151  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
How much money did they get off you suckers in the last 5 years? $$Millions?? They predicted 2A rights would start improving real soon and here we are losing more and more by the minute. Do you even feel cheated at all? I know I would.
You can join that other chump that posted here that doesn't want to support the NRA. So both of you can drop all support of the NRA and Calguns, and if everyone did what you did, you'd see how much worse things could be...
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  #152  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:53 AM
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I hate doing this kind of post, because they are annoying, but everything you are saying is such complete BS that there is no other way to address it. So:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Using progressive tactics now?
The truth is exactly the opposite of "progressive" tactics, so no, I'm not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Using progressive tactics now?

Take what an organization does and twist it into the worst possible light so as to support your position?
So pointing out a lack of success "is the worst possible light? No. It's reality. I noticed you don't actually have anything material to say in response to that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Please also let us know why collecting money and defending people against CA injustice is not a worthy goal.
Tell you what, I'll donate $5 to CGF right now if you can figure out (and name) which logical fallacy you've just used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
Let us know why out of court settlements that defend Californians are not worthy goals.
Because unless they are binding (in these types of cases), it means the plaintiff didn't win anything. Let me know if you don't understand why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
As far as SF is concerned, I am talking about their policy to limit gun rights ads on the MTA. Work between CGF and the SAF had them backpedal before the lawsuit even got started. Of course, you'll probably try to pretend the work they did on that had no value either.
To the extent they did work on it (SAF seems to want to take all the credit), it was certainly of value. More of a 1A issue really (hey that's important too), but in any case they got the MTA to let them put up an ad. But after 5+ years and hundreds of thousands in donation dollars, it would be nice if they had accomplished more than somehow being involved with another group's defense of free speech rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
I'll say it again: Pointing out failures as part of a discussion on efficiency and effectiveness can be valuable. Dishonesty amounting to disinformation is not.
More BS. You are the only one being dishonest here, by trying to inflate and fabricate CGF "accomplishments". Getting the MTA to drop ad policies that were likely indefensible does not equate to "Convincing cities like SF to back off of anti-2A policies". Also, you said cities, plural. So what were the other cities? Or are you just making things up? Again, that makes you just as bad as the OP, who is fabricating CGF failures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post
You clearly have a personal axe to grind with CGF. In this light, your commentary is growing marginal and tedious.
OK, put up or shut up time. Either post exactly what this supposed "personal axe to grind" is, or admit you are completely full of crap. EVERY TIME anyone says anything intelligent/accurate that is critical of CGF, some sycophant pops up with the "personal axe to grind" comment. What exactly has CGF done to create all these personal axes?
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  #153  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:59 AM
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OP, before you spew your nonsense, maybe you should take a look in the mirror. You can stand there on your soapbox preaching your view of Calguns' supposed failings, but what have you done to further the cause to restore our rights? Sure, they haven't turned over all anti-gun laws in the state, but they've done more than you have for the state and our rights. That much I can guarantee.
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  #154  
Old 09-03-2013, 7:02 AM
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Before you spew your nonsense, maybe you should take a look in the mirror. You can stand there on your soapbox preaching your view of Calguns' supposed failings, but what have you done to further the cause to restore our rights? Sure, they haven't turned over all anti-gun laws in the state, but they've done more than you have for the state and our rights. That much I can guarantee.
How can nothing in "advancement" be more?

What are you guaranteeing? Nothing?
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  #155  
Old 09-03-2013, 9:05 AM
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I don't think we should blame calguns. We should blame the lazy gun owners that don't call, email or send letters to the people in charge of California. If we kept up the pressure or if we still keep up the pressure they will know. We shouldn't give up yet. Fight to the last fight. Only cowards give up when the light at the end of the tunnel fades. Keep fighting and don't give in.
At this point in CA, every gun owner could call, write, and email everyday and they still wouldn't listen to us. Those guys are bought and paid for, there are far to many low information voters, they vote with their hearts and not their minds, so a positive change at this point is damn near impossible from the voter both. I cant wait to watch this place go belly up in a few years from AZ. At that point CA will have hope, till then they think what they are doing is working so whyh would they change?
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  #156  
Old 09-03-2013, 9:52 AM
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@Tincon: You are correct, the truth is contrary to progressive tactics. However, progressive tacticians always use a portion of the truth and twist it. That is what you are doing here.

Progressive tactics also requires sidestepping of questions that provide objective measures. The progressive always wants to stay in the realm of the subjective. I asked you to provide an objective measure on how to judge success. You have declined. I ask again, what constitutes a success in your book?

Defending people against unfair gun laws has value. Preventing anti-2A or anti-1A laws and codes has value. Forcing cities, however it is done, to actually respect the 2A has value. It is a progressive tactic to diminish the accomplishments of a target or dismiss them altogether.

I have also found it to be a progressive tactic to claim a logical fallacy while sidestepping pertinent questions.

When asked in another thread about alternatives, you pointed out the CRPA. When I pointed out that a huge amount of money went to salaries and other wasteful projects, as indicated by their tax records, you then suggested CRPAF might be different.

From the accounting of those two organizations, it appears that approximately 9 cents out of every dollar donated to them goes towards litigation. The rest goes towards salaries and a magazine. You didn't know this when offering them as an alternative. You are either too lazy to do the research or you have an ulterior motive. You take great pains to point out the failures of CGF. You take great pains to dismiss or diminish their successes. You have a hard time offering a viable alternative. This suggests a personal axe to grind.

As for being a sycophant: Sorry, over the last 4 years I've donated exactly $20 to CGF and hundreds and hundreds to the NRA. I couldn't care less which organization wins provided it is an organization representing 2A rights. What I am, is someone who can read. What I have read from you over the last few months has been acerbic vitriol, which, while rationally questioning the effectiveness of CGF, irrationally and dishonestly dismisses the answers you don't like.

I have some questions for you, which I doubt you will answer:

1 - What measure of success are you using to determine effectiveness of an organization?

2 - Does successfully defending individuals against unfair gun laws constitute a success for one of these organizations? If not, who should it constitute a success for?

3 - Does successfully backing down a city or county from putting into place an unfair gun law count as a success? If not, who should it constitute a success for?

LOL, I must say over the last few months, with all of the infighting between CGF and the other pro-2A organizations, I had begun to wonder as to the lack of results from most of them. I was wondering as to the motivations of Gene, Brandon, and their board. When an opponent is going to the great, dishonest lengths to discredit them, as you are doing, I think maybe they warrant a second look.
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  #157  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:33 AM
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As I suspected your claim of a personal axe to grind was pure BS. I highly doubt it was "suggested" to you by my criticisms. Like many people I criticize Obama all the time as well, and I don't have a viable alternative. Do think think that's personal too? More likely you read something like that from some other CGF sycophant, or a CGF member themselves. It's a classic defensive ad hominem attack. Since you said:

Quote:
You clearly have a personal axe to grind with CGF.
And now you admit that all you have is pure speculation, I think you owe me an apology.

As for your other questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsenerd View Post

I have some questions for you, which I doubt you will answer:

1 - What measure of success are you using to determine effectiveness of an organization?

2 - Does successfully defending individuals against unfair gun laws constitute a success for one of these organizations? If not, who should it constitute a success for?

3 - Does successfully backing down a city or county from putting into place an unfair gun law count as a success? If not, who should it constitute a success for?
1. Objectively, a consistent track record of substantive wins (for example those in the list linked to above). Subjectively, quality work.

2. No. It counts as a success for the defendant, the lawyers who won the case, and the people who donated the funds. It does not count as a success for the middle man who took the money and gave it to the lawyers. This is also true for the NRA when they do the exact same thing.

3. It depends on the circumstances, this is an incomplete hypothetical and it depends on what was actually accomplished, and what the alternative would have been. I know of several cases where CGF actually did the opposite and provoked a new law into creation or implementation. But I'm not trying to attack CGF in this thread, just counter your false assertions of success.
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  #158  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:37 AM
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Haters gunna hate

You should save this CGF flame thread for after the Yolo CCW case reaches the end of the line. Right now the 9th looks backed into a corner buying time to come up with any excuse to avoid handing us a win. If it goes down in flames, and is rejected by SCOTUS, then your message will have more weight.
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  #159  
Old 09-03-2013, 1:55 PM
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Pure speculation?

1 - You have repeatedly accused CGF of mismanaging court cases.
2 - You have demanded to see an accounting of where their money is going. 3 - It took repeated questions to you to get an answer of where you thought money should otherwise be placed. One of your responses, the CRPA and obviously not well researched, appears to spend very little of their money on litigation or even legislation.
4 - After having asked to see their finances, you now claim that money spent on outside lawyers doesn't count.
4- The NRA has a string of failures going back as far its existence.
5 - Likely the same can be said for the CRPA.
6 - You don't appear to have made the same demands on those organizations as CGF. Nor have you directed as much criticism.

Now, with those things in mind, you have taken little notice or made few complaints regarding NRA and CRPA failures. You have also shown a disinterest in the accounting statements of those organizations. You repeatedly have given them credit for hiring outside lawyers to fight legal battles. Now you claim that money properly managed and allocated by CGF to outside counsel doesn't count.

Which is it?Do we give credit for successes/failures of outside lawyers or not?
Were the litigation failures that you are highlighting tried by outside counsel that CGF hired?

If the money that CGF receives and allocates to outside counsel doesn't count, why have you asked for transparency in their finances?

If you don't have a personal axe to grind, why haven't you demanded the same of CRPA or the NRA? Why haven't you held them to the same standards?

Why is it that your metrics for deciding success are so vague? Are you afraid of being held to them? Give us something more concrete than the word substantive. At what level in the courts would a win be substantive? Which court system, state or federal? How sweeping of a win will it have to be?

You can call me a sycophant all you want. Your omissions and manipulations are in text for all to see. Erroneously calling me a sycophant doesn't change that.

Also, you got to love calling me a sycophant and then accusing me of an ad hominem. LOL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
As I suspected your claim of a personal axe to grind was pure BS. I highly doubt it was "suggested" to you by my criticisms. Like many people I criticize Obama all the time as well, and I don't have a viable alternative. Do think think that's personal too? More likely you read something like that from some other CGF sycophant, or a CGF member themselves. It's a classic defensive ad hominem attack. Since you said:



And now you admit that all you have is pure speculation, I think you owe me an apology.

As for your other questions:


1. Objectively, a consistent track record of substantive wins (for example those in the list linked to above). Subjectively, quality work.

2. No. It counts as a success for the defendant, the lawyers who won the case, and the people who donated the funds. It does not count as a success for the middle man who took the money and gave it to the lawyers. This is also true for the NRA when they do the exact same thing.

3. It depends on the circumstances, this is an incomplete hypothetical and it depends on what was actually accomplished, and what the alternative would have been. I know of several cases where CGF actually did the opposite and provoked a new law into creation or implementation. But I'm not trying to attack CGF in this thread, just counter your false assertions of success.
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  #160  
Old 09-03-2013, 3:07 PM
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I've never understood the personal glee some folks exhibit pointing out what they suppose are shortcomings of others or certain organizations. They don't present their case as a constructive criticism with a goal of shining a light and improvement, it's with an eye to tearing down. It's as though being right, and making sure everyone knows it, is the most important thing in the world to them.

Whether they dislike GAO, NRA or CalGuns or whatever else is out there my suggestion would be the same. Present you case in a spirit of co-operation and improvement, from which we might all benefit, or have the courage and commitment to peel off and build your own pro-gun organization. Seems to me with all the folks of late who dislike existing organizations, if they have the intelligence and ability they assign themselves they'd do quite well on their own.

Or as Gov Stevenson once remarked would that be too much "don't just do something, stand there"?
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