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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-31-2013, 1:20 PM
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Default NRA Setting the record straight re: AB711

I just got a call from a guy who said he was told that the "NRA sold out" hunters in a secret meeting with the antis and the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. He called it by it's former name, "the Fish and Game."

He was upset because I was supposedly "covering up for the NRA's backroom deals" by posting aggressive messages urging people to call key legislators in the Assembly Appropriations Committee on CalGuns.net. He noted that I never targeted AB711 in my alerts and claimed that was because "NRA had already cut a deal."

The reason that I'm posting this here is because the caller claimed to be a reader of Calguns.net and that I wanted to go on record before more false blame could be leveled at the NRA.

For the record: THIS CLAIM AGAINST NRA IS A LIE!!! The NRA was not, did not, and will not, "cut a deal" or participate in any way, shape, or manner, that will/would harm hunters, sportsmen, shooters, gun owners, etc. Furthermore, we have been and shall remain the leading opponent to the ban on traditional lead-based ammunition, known currently as Assembly Bill 711 (AB711). Some of the many reasons that NRA is against AB711 can be found at HuntforTruth.org

But the main reason is that science does show that firearms ammunition is NOT poisoning animals, people, or the environment. In fact, the science shows just the opposite. Metallic lead is in a form that is not the same as the soluble form that is in products such as fuels, paints, and other products.

I have learned that there was a meeting, last Wednesday I believe, with the Director of the CA DFW and some hunting groups and others. The following groups were NOT informed about the meeting, they/we weren't there: NRA, CRPA, SCI, GOC, NSSF.

The reported reason for this meeting was to get support from hunting groups for AB711. I'm told that some groups agreed to support the ban.

Again, the NRA, CRPA, SCI, GOC, NSSF, did not know about the meeting and did not attend or participate in this effort in any way.

I am personally and professionally offended and upset about being blamed for selling-out. Anyone who knows me or my reputation knows that this is simply not my style. Heck, a lot of people (even here on CGN) wish that I would compromise a little bit more and stop being such as hard-***. That's not going to happen!

As you might also know, I don't often take a defensive position when someone makes an outrageous claim against me. I might respond, but I usually don't justify the claim with details. But this is different.

First, they made a scandalous charge against the NRA. But secondly, and much more important: Some groups reportedly DID agree to support AB711 and with their support -- it got passed out of the Senate Appropriations Committee. But the major Second Amendment, Hunting, and Trade/Industry groups were not informed or involved with this action.

I hope this helps to clear up the rumors regarding this scandal.

Paul
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Last edited by H Paul Payne; 09-04-2013 at 9:20 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-31-2013, 1:39 PM
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Who were the groups that did sell out? So we now who not to send donations to.
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:01 PM
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Who were the groups that did sell out? So we now who not to send donations to.
+1

thanks for the update, hpp
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:07 PM
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Who were the groups that did sell out? So we now who not to send donations to.
This^^^^

Otherwise it's just third hand info.
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:08 PM
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I've heard some chatter about this as well.
I'm not as politic as Paul is, what a statement...

What I've heard is that this was guided for the most part by a guy named Bill Gaines, the same guy who sold us out on the bill about hunting bear with dogs.
I'm sensing a pattern here.

The names I'm hearing are NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc.

We e been sold out for nothing, concessions that are meaningless or worse should someone else be appointed to the CA DFW Directorship.
They handed off the ability to declare ammo illegal and the vaporware promise the 'hunting will always be legal'.
No mention of being functionally regulated out of existence.

They need to repudiate their agreement and get back on board opposing AB711 or the need to get the Zumbo treatment on steroids!
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2013, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
The names I'm hearing are NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc.
I'm not 100% sure about the "Elk Foundation" and if it is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation or maybe some other group. I have only one source claiming they were involved and have not verified this as fact, yet. But we will know soon enough.

At this time, I don't want to "accuse" them. But I do plan on "asking" them.

Paul
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2013, 2:19 PM
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This is sad. Instead of inviting all the "Stake Holders", nanny state word, they invited some and tried to pin it on entities that were not even present. No Honor in the Politics of Emotion.

Even if lead magically left the entire earth, the Condor is still going to be extinct.

Sorry Paul that you even had to write the above.
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:19 PM
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That sounds familiar I think he had a ".org" for "California Hunting Heritage" or something like that based in downtown Sacramento. I wouldn't be surprised if there are small astro-turf sort of movements out there claiming to be hunting or pro-2A organizations right now.
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:28 PM
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Why in Gods green earth would the Deer foundation endorse this?

CWA and NWTF are shotgunners who have been using steel or copper (for turkeys. I can see them as "oh OK"

But still! As an avid hunter i think it will be my duty to make life hell for their ORGS. I will inform every hunter to think twice before they give money to these guys. EVEN IF IT MEANS GOING TO EVERY SINGLE DINNER THEY HAVE TO HAND OUT FLYERS TO INFORM THEM.

Rant over.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2013, 2:35 PM
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What's disgusting is that any hunting or fishing orginazation would agree to any thpe of compromise on anything the criminals running this state try to put into law, shame on all of them. I know the NRA seems to get a lot of crap from people on this forum and I may not agree with everything they do, but what I do know is they are the best organization helping us firearms owners here, and the way I look at it is, if your not a member of the NRA then you are part of the problem not the solution.
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
The names I'm hearing are NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc.
I would very much be surprised and saddened if the NWTF was involved here, can anyone confirm or deny this?
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Old 08-31-2013, 2:54 PM
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I have sent emails out to these organizations and will post when I hear back. If I hear back.
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Old 08-31-2013, 3:44 PM
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Aren't NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, affiliated to the CRPA? = Yes
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc. not affiliated
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Old 08-31-2013, 4:52 PM
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Thought:

The Bill AB 711, as amended, Rendon. Hunting: non-lead ammunition.

This bill would revise and recast these provisions to require the use of non-lead ammunition for the taking of all wildlife, including game mammals, game birds, nongame birds, and nongame mammals, with any firearm. The bill would require the commission, by July 1, 2014, commission to certify, by regulation, non-lead ammunition for these purposes. The bill would require that the list of certified ammunition include any federally approved nontoxic shotgun ammunition.
(c) Fifty years of research have shown that the presence of lead in the environment poses an ongoing threat to the health of the general public and the viability of the state’s wildlife species, including federally listed threatened and endangered species.

The NRA has been fighting this lead ammo ban for years and proven with science that the claims are just not true.

Question:

Director of Fish and Wildlife, Bill Gaines President of now defunct COHA, Jim Waters of CA Waterfowl Assn., Jerry Springer of the California Deer Association and others in a “Back Alley Deal” collude to bring forward the Ban on lead ammo.

They discussed amendments to 711. They felt we didn't have the votes to stop the bill and the Governor would sign AB-711. A Guarantee to Hunt in California was discussed by Director of Fish and Wildlife, The Director of Fish and Wildlife would be the only person that could determine if a projectile was legal or not. After a long conversation President of CDA (California Deer Association) and the NWTF (National Wild Turkey Federation) signed off on the idea
Does this mean the unproven points listed in the AB-711 become fact by “Back Alley Deals”?

If the Director of Fish and Wildlife would be the only person that could determine if a projectile was legal or not has this power and a “AB-711 Back Alley Deal” makes the false lead ammo fact, then California Shooting Ranges will be closed because of lead ammo?

Or does it mean the Director of Fish and Wildlife would be the only person that could determine if a projectile was legal or not has this power to make all lead ammo in California illegal in 2014?
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2013, 5:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
I would very much be surprised and saddened if the NWTF was involved here, can anyone confirm or deny this?
Then you should be "surprised and saddened."
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennys dad View Post
Aren't NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc. affiliated to the CRPA?
As of 8/1/13 the National Wild Turkey Foundation and California Deer Association are both CRPA affiliates.
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennys dad View Post
Aren't NWTF National Wild Turkey Foundation, California Deer Association, Elk Foundation and CWA California Waterfowl Assoc. affiliated to the CRPA?
I know that CDA and NWTF are affiliates of the CRPA. But I don't know about any "elk Foundation" or CWA.

I honestly doubt the CWA would be affiliated with CRPA. Their President is John Carlson, Jr. who used to be the Executive Director of the CA. Fish & Game Commission and their Vice Chairman is Ryan Broddrick, who used to be the Director of the CA. Department of Fish & Game.

Paul
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Paul Payne View Post
I know that CDA and NWTF are affiliates of the CRPA. But I don't know about any "elk Foundation" or CWA.

I honestly doubt the CWA would be affiliated with CRPA. Their President is John Carlson, Jr. who used to be the Executive Director of the CA. Fish & Game Commission and their Vice Chairman is Ryan Broddrick, who used to be the Director of the CA. Department of Fish & Game.

Paul
Noted and adjusted.
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:39 PM
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This is rather absurd.

Guarantee hunting, but then make it so you have to buy stupidly expensive, possibly illegal ammunition to do it?

Isn't it illegal to use harder than lead ammo in rifles anyways??

What the hell are these people thinking? Oh wait, don't answer that. I know exactly what they're thinking.

It's not about the environment. It's about pocketbooks and more control. Lead ammo ban will spread to all uses for ammo, and thus effectively prohibit possession of affordable ammo.
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:49 PM
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Oldest trick in the book, DIVIDE AND CONQUER. Useful idiots are helping the enemy. A pox on their house.
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Old 08-31-2013, 5:53 PM
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I guess I will have to make some stone arrowheads
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Paul Payne View Post
I have learned that there was a meeting, last Wednesday I believe, with the Director of the CA DFW and some hunting groups and others. The following groups were NOT informed about the meeting, they/we weren't there: NRA, CRPA, SCI, GOC, NSSF.

The reported reason for this meeting was to get support from hunting groups for AB711. I'm told that some groups agreed to support the ban.
Divide and conquer. Just you wait and see, the leadership of those groups will be offered high paying jobs somewhere.
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:15 PM
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This is the message I am sending far and wide. Take it and post it everywhere you can.

California Shooting Community has Been Betrayed

More to come:

There was a lengthy conference called that included Director of Fish and Wildlife, Bill Gaines, Jim Waters of CA Waterfowl Assn. and Jerry Springer of the California Deer Association, Joe Pecsi (President of the California State Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation) and others.

They discussed amendments to 711. A Guarantee to Hunt in California was discussed by Director of Fish and Wildlife. The Director of Fish and Wildlife would be the only person that could determine if a projectile was legal or not. After a conversation President of CDA (California Deer Association) and the NWTF (National Wild Turkey Federation ) signed off on the idea" to help the Director" by not opposing the other bill.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=816421
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:20 PM
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Geee why is the Press not covering this?
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:30 PM
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BOOM!

"The CRPA is proud to welcome three important California organizations as its first three CRPA affiliate members, including: the California Youth Shooting Sports Association, the California Deer Association, and the California Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Foundation, all effective August 1, 2013. It is hoped that the addition of these three initial key players as CRPA
affiliate partners will create momentum for many more organizations to follow.

CRPA believes that adding these important new affiliate partners to the CRPA family is mutually beneficial for all concerned. Not only does the affiliate partner organization benefit from CRPA’s excellent lobbying representation in Sacramento at a very reasonable rate, but the CRPA’s “legislative influence” tent is enhanced and enlarged by 1,000’s of additional affiliate members, providing CRPA’s lobbying efforts with a stronger voice and a larger, broader constituency. "


I'm not exactly feeling the "mutual benefits" right now.
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:34 PM
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Note to self do not renew membership in CRPA!!!!
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:47 PM
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Note to self do not renew membership in CRPA!!!!
I'm not sure that blaming the CRPA is the most appropriate response to this situation.

Paul
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Old 08-31-2013, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Paul Payne View Post
I'm not sure that blaming the CRPA is the most appropriate response to this situation.

Paul
I'll take it a step further and say that it's flat out stupid.
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Old 08-31-2013, 7:05 PM
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Earlier this year Wayne LaPierre, CEO and vice president of the NRA, attended and spoke to a standing-room-only crowd of 600 at the annual NWTF Convention and Sport Show.

Should we not renew membership in NRA also?
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Old 08-31-2013, 7:06 PM
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From their Facebook page.

CDA Response to False Rumor

I was at the meeting on Wednesday, August 28th with DFW staff and some other conservation groups. The meeting was not held to discuss AB 711 but at the beginning of the meeting there was some discussion of the Director's letter. It is totally false that CDA or any of the other conservation groups who participated in the meeting came out in support of AB 711, or voiced support of AB 711, or the amendments in the Director's letter.

Remember the saying, "Divide and Conquer" - is the false rumor coming from the antis to distract us from spending our time opposing AB 711? If not, shame on the person among us who started this false rumor!

Jerry Springer
President
California Deer Association
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Old 08-31-2013, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
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I'll take it a step further and say that it's flat out stupid.
I have to ask why? Please backup your statement. I am a CRPA member and have to say I am wondering why I should renew... I am also a lifetime member of the NRA and many other organizations. Am I missing something here?
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Old 08-31-2013, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mmayer707 View Post
I have to ask why? Please backup your statement. I am a CRPA member and have to say I am wondering why I should renew... I am also a lifetime member of the NRA and many other organizations. Am I missing something here?
For one thing right now all you have is a lot of rumor and possible BS. IF this is true, then how the CRPA responds is certainly something worthy of scrutiny. Right now though, all we have is some chatter about what an affiliate group the CRPA has no control over MIGHT have done. Does that somehow negate all the value you apparently perceived in the CRPA when you decided to become a member?
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  #33  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by VaderSpade View Post
From their Facebook page.

It is totally false that CDA or any of the other conservation groups who participated in the meeting came out in support of AB 711, or voiced support of AB 711, or the amendments in the Director's letter.
There is a gulf of distance between "support" and "will not oppose" or placing on "watch" status instead of a clear "oppose" status. I would hope that CDA or NWTF make their position(s) crystal clear on this or any other meetings, formal or informal.
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  #34  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
As an avid hunter i think it will be my duty to make life hell for their ORGS. I will inform every hunter to think twice before they give money to these guys. EVEN IF IT MEANS GOING TO EVERY SINGLE DINNER THEY HAVE TO HAND OUT FLYERS TO INFORM THEM.
I wouldn't even consider myself an avid hunter...

But if we can find out with certainty what pro-hunting organizations sold us out, I'll be in with you to do this.
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Old 08-31-2013, 7:52 PM
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there is this... not quite sure what is true or not...

"CDA Response to False Rumor

I was at the meeting on Wednesday, August 28th with DFW staff and some other conservation groups. The meeting was not held to discuss AB 711 but at the beginning of the meeting there was some discussion of the Director's letter. It is totally false that CDA or any of the other conservation groups who participated in the meeting came out in support of AB 711, or voiced support of AB 711, or the amendments in the Director's letter.

Remember the saying, "Divide and Conquer" - is the false rumor coming from the antis to distract us from spending our time opposing AB 711? If not, shame on the person among us who started this false rumor!

Jerry Springer
President
California Deer Association"
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  #36  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by H Paul Payne View Post
I'm not sure that blaming the CRPA is the most appropriate response to this situation.

Paul

So they make an alliance with a few groups who essentially just threw us all under the bus, but it's not their fault? Hmm interesting theory, then maybe what the CRPA should do at this point is to break all associations with all those groups and then when that happens I will reconsider. Or prove that it is all false.
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  #37  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by halh View Post
there is this... not quite sure what is true or not...
See my post above. While they may not have supported the bill, did they go on record as opposing it? Or did they take a weasel approach and go with "not oppose", "neutral", or "watch" position?

The firearms rights community has been sold out by such back room, middle ground shenanigans before.
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  #38  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:02 PM
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Ya, I just posted that a few post up???

Quote:
Originally Posted by halh View Post
there is this... not quite sure what is true or not...

"CDA Response to False Rumor

I was at the meeting on Wednesday, August 28th with DFW staff and some other conservation groups. The meeting was not held to discuss AB 711 but at the beginning of the meeting there was some discussion of the Director's letter. It is totally false that CDA or any of the other conservation groups who participated in the meeting came out in support of AB 711, or voiced support of AB 711, or the amendments in the Director's letter.

Remember the saying, "Divide and Conquer" - is the false rumor coming from the antis to distract us from spending our time opposing AB 711? If not, shame on the person among us who started this false rumor!

Jerry Springer
President
California Deer Association"
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  #39  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by H Paul Payne View Post
I know that CDA and NWTF are affiliates of the CRPA. But I don't know about any "elk Foundation" or CWA.

I honestly doubt the CWA would be affiliated with CRPA. Their President is John Carlson, Jr. who used to be the Executive Director of the CA. Fish & Game Commission and their Vice Chairman is Ryan Broddrick, who used to be the Director of the CA. Department of Fish & Game.

Paul
There is much cronyism in and around the environs of CF&W.
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  #40  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:07 PM
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@ VaderSpade... yes you did... while I was compiling my post. I guess great minds work in similar fashion or something like that
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