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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:21 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
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Default We Need A New Plan

Time to ruffle some feathers again folks.

Here's why. Those of you who put your faith in the courts must consider the following. The time between Miller vs US and Heller vs DC was 69 years. Even if we cut that time in half, that means its a good possibility we won't see another SCOTUS case on firearms for another 34 odd years.

Wanna bet what California's laws will look like in 30+ years?

Sorry folks. The Judiciary is simply not a reliable strategy anymore, not with the opposition spamming the legal books with anti-rights laws. Even if they rule in our favor, 70 years is a long time to wait on a pro-rights verdict.

So, we need a new plan . I hope to kickstart a PRODUCTIVE dialogue on the matter, not continual denials about the state of things. Miracles are good things, but a Deus Ex Machina is the stuff of poor planning.

The new idea I have is one the oppositon has effectively used against us-namely, we need to change the culture. At one time even California was pro-RKBA. That changed because the hoplophobes modified the culture, which then modified the laws in their perspective.

We need to do the same. Instead of waiting on a Judicial bailout as a primary plan, lets get grassroots and start changing the culture from the bottom up. Make firearms ownership a cool and trendy act, not a reporbate sign of criminal intent. Once the sheeple treat firearms like they do iPods and iPads, they'll be amenable to voting in favor of the RKBA. Once we've made guns a positive cultural trait, people will accept and own firearms in greater numbers-which will influence the voting booth, and then we can turn the tide effectively.

Once we've made being a hoplophobe to be a sign of personal immaturity, their movement will die on the vine. We need to go beyond just taking people to the gun range-we need to get pro-gun media out there. Post fliers, make short movies, get the word about the RKBA into the mainstream. Put pro-gun activity on Facebook, make short independent films showing say , a horror movie where the herione pulls a Glock instead of getting killed by the masked bandit with a knife.

By changing the media culture from the ground up, we'll influence the will and perspective of the sheeple. Once the masses join our new Pro-Gun media bandwagon, the politicians will have no choice but to respect the Constitution. Get the trendy guys and girls with satchels,drama degrees and patchouli in the Starbucks lounge to back gun rights, and we solve this problem permanently.


What will NOT work is sending angry emails to politicians who don't need your vote to stay in office. What will NOT work is believing blind obedience to a failed strategy will get a different result. The old plan's been done since the late 80s, and to what end?

Time to change the music folks.
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:27 AM
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The simple fact is the only way you can combat this stuff peacefully (meaning states like California) is simply to defund them. This means move your tax money somewhere else (which is happening in a big way in CA). I can honestly say I can't see another way to get what you want in this state. It's run by fascist commies and the vast majority of voters in this state are astonishingly clueless. When you have that combination, you get what California is becoming and what Germany became in the late 30's.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:01 AM
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Anti-gun politicians (both repub and dem) are and always will be the super-majority

An anti-gun majority populace, that is growing in numbers

A court system composed of anti-gun activist judges

State agencies building and training "goon squads" to confiscate guns from "bad people".

An anti-gun media that will spin guns as society's greatest evil

A school system that indoctrinates future voters to be anti-gun

A gun owner community that is weak-kneed, watered down, and in denial. Just skim through the posts here on Calguns before every bill passes and before every election, you see wise quotes like this:
* "Jerry Brown is pro 2nd Amendment"
* "calm down, nothing will happen"
* "Take off the tinfoil hat, guns WILL NOT be banned"
* "stop being paranoid, it will not pass"
* "don't listen to the trolls, the state can't do that"
* "We need to make friends with people who own guns, but hate the constitution"

California truly is a lost cause. Nothing short of a complete collapse or the state splitting into 2 states will change the political climate for you. SCOTUS rulings may give us some recourse, but as you stated that could take decades.
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Old 08-31-2013, 8:05 AM
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Personally, I think there is a long-term goal with the Gun Prohibitionists. Very insidiously there is an entire generation coming of age who don't shoot, hunt or engage in any firearms-related activity. I do believe I've read that the age of the average firearms user is rising dramatically.

Times are changing. In 30 years I wouldn't be surprised if most adults under the age of 70 look at firearms like they do cigarettes. And if this nation proceeds towards a United Nations sovereignty - an agenda decidedly against personal ownership of small arms - that will be a very convenient social attitude for the future administrations who would then move to amend the Constitution and strike 2A as a personal right.

A lot of people don't tend to grow up with rifles, shotguns and handguns the way I (and many of you) did. And it is one of the worst trends ever to influence the direction of this nation. Once it is gone, short of civil war, it will never come back.

Now I shall await my beating on this forum.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Time to ruffle some feathers again folks.

Here's why. Those of you who put your faith in the courts must consider the following. The time between Miller vs US and Heller vs DC was 69 years. Even if we cut that time in half, that means its a good possibility we won't see another SCOTUS case on firearms for another 34 odd years.

Wanna bet what California's laws will look like in 30+ years?

Sorry folks. The Judiciary is simply not a reliable strategy anymore, not with the opposition spamming the legal books with anti-rights laws. Even if they rule in our favor, 70 years is a long time to wait on a pro-rights verdict.

So, we need a new plan . I hope to kickstart a PRODUCTIVE dialogue on the matter, not continual denials about the state of things. Miracles are good things, but a Deus Ex Machina is the stuff of poor planning.

The new idea I have is one the oppositon has effectively used against us-namely, we need to change the culture. At one time even California was pro-RKBA. That changed because the hoplophobes modified the culture, which then modified the laws in their perspective.

We need to do the same. Instead of waiting on a Judicial bailout as a primary plan, lets get grassroots and start changing the culture from the bottom up. Make firearms ownership a cool and trendy act, not a reporbate sign of criminal intent. Once the sheeple treat firearms like they do iPods and iPads, they'll be amenable to voting in favor of the RKBA. Once we've made guns a positive cultural trait, people will accept and own firearms in greater numbers-which will influence the voting booth, and then we can turn the tide effectively.

Once we've made being a hoplophobe to be a sign of personal immaturity, their movement will die on the vine. We need to go beyond just taking people to the gun range-we need to get pro-gun media out there. Post fliers, make short movies, get the word about the RKBA into the mainstream. Put pro-gun activity on Facebook, make short independent films showing say , a horror movie where the herione pulls a Glock instead of getting killed by the masked bandit with a knife.

By changing the media culture from the ground up, we'll influence the will and perspective of the sheeple. Once the masses join our new Pro-Gun media bandwagon, the politicians will have no choice but to respect the Constitution. Get the trendy guys and girls with satchels,drama degrees and patchouli in the Starbucks lounge to back gun rights, and we solve this problem permanently.


What will NOT work is sending angry emails to politicians who don't need your vote to stay in office. What will NOT work is believing blind obedience to a failed strategy will get a different result. The old plan's been done since the late 80s, and to what end?

Time to change the music folks.
What does work is for people to take part in the political system and communication is a big part of that. Courts can and do work. Unfortunately for you, your general assumptions and claims, don't reflect reality. What's needed is for people to carry on, in being active, and to not give up. Part of exercising the right to keep and bear arms has a positive effect on the culture. In effect we're doing the right thing.
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:29 AM
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There is no dialogue. The left has been holding the 'talking stick' for the past 30 years in California and do not intend on relenquishing it for anything, as they are the only ones who offer 'common sense' gun policy. It is a monologue for tyrannical morons spouting 'public safety'.

Defunding their programs would be a nice idea, if the left didnt believe that there is no program that isnt worthy of raising taxes for (or as with the APPS program, stealing the funds from DROS). Effectively, the only way to bankrupt the system is to overburden it until it is unsustainable.

As I see it, the new strategy cannot rely on a single goal, but broad objectives and incrementalism. Starting with drowning kittens and puppies until we get the result we want.

(By kittens I mean anti rights legislators holding office. By puppies I mean prior bad court gun rights decisions. By drowning, i mean defeat.)

An achievable objective that we must set our sights on in the immediate future, is to break the supermajority in both houses at the state level. Doing this with electable republicans outside rural California is a tough row to hoe. So support of Dems like Rod Wright, is an acceptable compromise.

The next objective is to propogate our own kind. Or at least dig them out of the ground. Too many gun owners are political potatoes. I have run into more than one gun owner who has looked at the bills, and shrugged...ceding their political will and surrendering without a fight, just because 'its how California is'. We must illustrate for them, the fact that when they elect to do nothing but sit there, that the burden for changing the face of California gun ownership is placed on those who remain to fight. It seems that new gun owners are easier to motivate than the old ones. Perhaps that is where we should spend our effort.
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Old 08-31-2013, 8:31 AM
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i am all for a new plan to fight CA gun control. our old ways of emailing and calling are not and will not work. what we really need is more public events and a hearts and minds campaign. the anti gunners are winning in CA because they have convinced the people guns are evil. we need to show people guns are just tools and have many other uses besides crime. the courts are important, but we cant ignore the hearts and minds on the street. i know it has been our attitude that we fight with logic and facts while the enemy uses emotion. we need to change this and use emotional arguments as well as facts against the enemy. most importantly though we need to organize and get out in public more.
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
Personally, I think there is a long-term goal with the Gun Prohibitionists. Very insidiously there is an entire generation coming of age who don't shoot, hunt or engage in any firearms-related activity. I do believe I've read that the age of the average firearms user is rising dramatically.

Times are changing. In 30 years I wouldn't be surprised if most adults under the age of 70 look at firearms like they do cigarettes. And if this nation proceeds towards a United Nations sovereignty - an agenda decidedly against personal ownership of small arms - that will be a very convenient social attitude for the future administrations who would then move to amend the Constitution and strike 2A as a personal right.

A lot of people don't tend to grow up with rifles, shotguns and handguns the way I (and many of you) did. And it is one of the worst trends ever to influence the direction of this nation. Once it is gone, short of civil war, it will never come back.

Now I shall await my beating on this forum.
I don't know why you're expecting to get a beating, no one who's paying attention would disagree with your overall assessment of the anti's strategy. However I would disagree with you if you're saying the outcome is inevitable, it's not.

There's no doubt that California is working overtime to demonize and eliminate guns, but looking at other states many of them, in fact the majority of them, have made it easier for people to carry. That's not a small and insignificant point.

We can turn the tide in California! It's not easy, and it's far from guaranteed that we will prevail, but it certainly is possible!

There is no single effort that will do the trick either. It will take fighting them in court, we will need to battle them in Sacramento, and we need to whip them on the streets. Key to all strategies is to influence voters. This is such an overused phrase that it seems trite, but we must win hearts and minds!

Again, there are at least 8 million gun owners is CA. Like any large group of people when it comes to individual characteristics we probably fall into the classic 10/80/10 bell curve, 10% own guns but would just as soon trade 'em in for $20 worth of Chucky Cheese tokens, 10% are committed and will make an effort to actually vote for 2A rights, and 80% (or 6.4 million owners) just aren't that aware or concerned.

We have a chance at converting those 6.4 million from couch potatoes into 2A warriors. Although not all low hanging - they are fruit within reach, and we must do a far better job of picking them off. That means all of us need to work harder at finding other gun owners and waking them up.

And there are also millions of Californians who don't currently own guns, but would if the opportunity hit them at the right time.

Plus there are more millions who may never want to own a gun, but would support 2A rights nonetheless if presented with the facts.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2013, 8:43 AM
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The left wins the culture war by targeting children via the education system. We're essentially the ones that slipped through the cracks, so to speak. So how do you do this?

I see several things that can be done. First, we need a media hook - a challenging game that makes shooting fun. There are levels, weapon types, etc. But unlike video games, this virtual shooter has a reality phase. You don't get to the next level until you qualify at the range. This brings the parent(s) into the equation. And kid doesn't advance until mom/dad Q's as well. You can incorporate Eddie Eagle, Appleseed, etc into the program design. You make sure there are temporal requirements, guaranteeing a basic level of frequency or you revert back to a previous level.

That's the guts of it, someone that's uber creative has to craft a cool concept that's addictive.

I started shooting with my dad when I was 7. And Thanksgiving was not only a family reunion, but also a 'turkey shoot'. That was our family culture and it has lasted over 40 years despite the constant attack on the 2A. The culture war is not being engaged in any organized fashion.

Rather than being cast as the minority complaining about our civil rights, we need to redefine ourselves as that 'cool clique', with the important distinction of being all inclusive. That also means be nice to noobs. Its very intimidating coming into a forum, walking into a LGS or range for the first time. We have to make people comfortable around firearms, not afraid, with the proper maturity and respect.

ST - to your grassroots approach, I think there are many ways to integrate that into my comments above.
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Old 08-31-2013, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FastFinger View Post

...And there are also millions of Californians who don't currently own guns, but would if the opportunity hit them at the right time.

Plus there are more millions who may never want to own a gun, but would support 2A rights nonetheless if presented with the facts.
I do hope you are right. And I proceed on a daily basis with those goals in mind.
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Old 08-31-2013, 8:48 AM
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I see several things that can be done. First, we need a media hook - a challenging game that makes shooting fun.
I agree. It would be great to have a real, hands-on, shooting sport that engages people immensely. Half the people I talk to outside of my work have one experience with "guns:" games like Grand Theft Auto.
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Old 08-31-2013, 8:58 AM
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I'm pretty sure there's no way we're going to get a "civil rights" movement on our behalf.

Nothing will change unless we're willing to throw some tea in the bay.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
I agree. It would be great to have a real, hands-on, shooting sport that engages people immensely. Half the people I talk to outside of my work have one experience with "guns:" games like Grand Theft Auto.
There's already an instrument along those lines, and that's video games. They're very popular, but also coming under scrutiny for the same reasons real gun users are. The point is, there is something attractive out there, so maybe we fix that one to our own ends, or find something new and exciting.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
I agree. It would be great to have a real, hands-on, shooting sport that engages people immensely. Half the people I talk to outside of my work have one experience with "guns:" games like Grand Theft Auto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
There's already an instrument along those lines, and that's video games. They're very popular, but also coming under scrutiny for the same reasons real gun users are. The point is, there is something attractive out there, so maybe we fix that one to our own ends, or find something new and exciting.
Are you suggesting of getting the attention of the gaming community by banning pixelated firearms from the game that are prohibited or neutered by California law?

COD Black Ops II played with 10 round mags, no grenades, and rifles that wont shoot three burst or must be reloaded by the action being broken open would cause mass disinterest. It would be like playing NRA's FPS video game.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
I agree. It would be great to have a real, hands-on, shooting sport that engages people immensely. Half the people I talk to outside of my work have one experience with "guns:" games like Grand Theft Auto.
That and Call of Duty. Would also love to see a big box store type of range and retail store. Including DIY classes (build a gun, reloading, etc.). Don't get me wrong, I love my LGS's but they are forced to maintain a low profile. The public walks into Pepboys, not the local speed shop. Home Depot/Lowes open doors to the general public - the pros can still hang at Rocklers, etc.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:27 AM
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You wanted an out of the box idea! Well here it is.
This is based on the fact that California does have a Military Department. Within that organization is the 'Unorganized Militia' consisting of all able bodied males between 18 and 45. Yes, the Governor can call you up for active duty, its the law! Check it out!

The idea is to
Summary of the Proposition, it needs help in the actual working.
1. A new California militia group shall be created within the Unorganized Militia: called the Regulated Militia

2. The Regulated Militia shall consist of all registered firearm owners, regardless of age or disability, and who are residents of the State, and such other persons who may upon their own application be enlisted or commissioned.
a. Active members of the United State Military, California Militia or California law enforcement may apply to be exempted from serving in the Regulated Militia.

3. The Regulated Militia may be called for active duty in case of war, rebellion, insurrection, invasion, tumult, riot, breach of the peace, public calamity or catastrophe, or other emergency, or imminent danger thereof, or may be called forth for service under the Constitution and laws of the United States. Whenever it is necessary to call out any portion of the unorganized militia, the Governor may call for and accept as many volunteers as are required for such service, under regulations provided by this division.
a. The Regulated Militia shall not be deployed beyond 250 miles of the state boundary of the State of California.
b. The Regulated Militia shall not be deployed beyond the borders of the United States of America.

4. Regulated Militia members, at any time, who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission. The scene of an emergency shall not include emergency departments and other places where any care is usually offered.

5. The Military Department shall make available childcare, or other similar services to individuals with dependents or wards, who are called to active duty and have no means to insure the dependent or ward is placed with a guardian before reporting for duty.

6. Any Regulated Militia member who has been called to active duty shall be evaluated if treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder.

7. Members of the Regulated Militia shall provide themselves with the arms, uniforms, and equipment at their personal cost.
a. Arms shall consist of one or more of the following: revolver, semi-automatic pistol, semiautomatic assault rifle, semiautomatic rifle, bolt action rifle, shotgun, nonlethal firearm, with no functional restrictions or limitations; and four high capacity magazines with greater than 20 round capacity, telescopic sights or “scopes” with no functional restrictions or limitations including type of illumination capabilities.
b. Uniforms shall consist of two service uniforms prescribed and approved by the Governor. Other uniforms shall be supplied by the State.
c. Other Equipment may consist of helmet, ballistic armor, riot shield, baton, night vision devices, and other equipment prescribed and approved by the Governor.
d. Ammunition shall be maintained for each arm, 1000 rounds for each firearm and 100 rounds for nonlethal weapons.
e. The reloading of ammunition by Regulated Militia members shall not be restricted.

8. All arms, uniforms or equipment shall be kept in good repair when not on active duty.
a. Material and repair expenses shall be exempt from all sales tax

9. Surplus arms, uniforms or equipment shall be made available to the Regulated Militia through an online auction service managed by the Military Department. Regulated Militia members shall certify that any items purchased shall not be resold, except through the Military Departments auction service.

10. Any personal arm, uniform or equipment damaged or rendered nonfunctional during active duty shall be exchanged for an equivalent arm, uniform or equipment, if available, or a cash reimbursement upon application to the California Military Department.

11. Training shall be required for all Registered Militia members.
a. Training shall consist of either instruction, and/or indoor and outdoor practice for a minimum of 80 hours per year. Yearly training records shall be submitted to the Military Department.
i. When an individual fails to complete 80 hours of training, a makeup program shall be developed with the Military Department, or the individual shall be placed on active duty until the training time is satisfied at a mutually agreed upon start date.
b. The Military Department shall establish criteria for all training programs.
i. Any business providing training to members of the Regulated Militia shall certify that their training program meets the criteria established by the Military Department.
ii. Training shall be in any of the following areas to support mission assignments for war, rebellion, insurrection, invasion, tumult, riot, breach of the peace, public calamity or catastrophe.
iii. Training areas may also include specialization in marksmanship, unarmed combat, martial arts combat, law enforcement support, search, rescue, recovery, medical aid, and communications.
c. Training costs including: tuition, ammunition, lodging and transportation shall be deductible from the state income tax when purchased in the State of California.

12. Funding for the Regulated Militia shall be from redirecting existing taxes, fees and penalty sources currently associated with firearm laws, except those sources currently funding the Department of Fish and Game, to the Military Department.
13. All Regulated Militia members shall be given a state income tax credit of $750. This credit shall be adjusted annually on October 1, and shall be increased at the higher percentage of base salary increase given to any member of the State Senate or State Assembly, and shall be increased at the higher percentage of the Cost of Living rate given to any member of the State Senate or State Assembly.
14. Regulated Militia members shall be exempt from paying all sales tax for ammunition and components of ammunition.
15. The Adjacent General shall review and report to the Governor on any proposed law as to its impact on the readiness of the Regulated Militia to perform when called to active duty.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:30 AM
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we need to rid the state of liberal democrats. the time for warm, fuzzy bipartisan BS is over. it's time to wake up and face reality.
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Old 08-31-2013, 9:59 AM
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Gather together with other gun owners/pro-2a people and sponsor youth shooting programs.

Scouts, 4H, and other groups are looking for activities.

Volunteer your time to coach young people in competitive shooting sports, and teaching firearms safety.

This reaches the next generation of voters - and their parents.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:00 AM
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new plan, new schman... you don't seem to understand supermajority. They have the window of oppty and they are using it to the max. The only good to come of this is red votes will migrate to the last bastions of common decency.

the courts are the only play left.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
There's already an instrument along those lines, and that's video games. They're very popular, but also coming under scrutiny for the same reasons real gun users are. The point is, there is something attractive out there, so maybe we fix that one to our own ends, or find something new and exciting.
I think there is a certain amount of video games to airsoft to real guns that occurs.

Unfortunately, the reception such people often get is to be called "mall ninjas" and mocked as being "tacticool".

Just about every "gun person" I know who is in their 20s or 30s and was not brought up in a gun owning family came to gun ownership through video games and/or airsoft.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tzotzo View Post
new plan, new schman... you don't seem to understand supermajority. They have the window of oppty and they are using it to the max. The only good to come of this is red votes will migrate to the last bastions of common decency.

the courts are the only play left.
The courts full of judges that were attorneys and students brought up in the statist/leftist training academies? We didn't get here over night. We need long term plans as well as the short term approaches. There is no drive-thru / instant gratification solution to securing our rights.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:09 AM
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The simple fact is the only way you can combat this stuff peacefully (meaning states like California) is simply to defund them. This means move your tax money somewhere else (which is happening in a big way in CA). I can honestly say I can't see another way to get what you want in this state. It's run by fascist commies and the vast majority of voters in this state are astonishingly clueless. When you have that combination, you get what California is becoming and what Germany became in the late 30's.
I disagree completely. No civil rights advancements succeeded through funding efforts. They all were long, drawn out battles that tested individual resolve and collective unity. Most importantly, they all depended on external support from people with an empathetic appeal to their cause.

That's what we need urgently. We need the vast majority of non-owners who don't already have a firm side in this fight to recognize that the guilt-by-association thinking we face today is the same that empowers racism and discrimination on the basis of gender, age, sexual orientation, religion, or anything else. Honestly this should be a liberal cause... but it isn't because we are equated as criminals and not victims. How do you break the stereotype of being a criminal? Easy, get to know people and let them get to know you.

One of the most effective ways to change this opinion is simple: get out there and be a part of your neighborhood and community. It's the dead easy stuff that people miss. BBQs, picnics, and any event that brings you together (particularly if you can share a meal) does more to support your cause than you can ever imagine. Why? Because it humanizes you and by extension it humanizes gun owners. It's hard to digest the AR-15 owners want to kill humans argument if you happen to know one and they're a great example of an engaged community member.

Also, if you've given up then fine but please stop trying to encourage others in joining you. I'll leave this gem from the man upstairs:

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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Let me make this simple:

If you have and continue to send letters, emails, faxes and phones calls I encourage you to keep doing so and to not quit fighting until these bills are either dead or signed.
If signed then we'll see what is needed to fight them in court.
The only time you lose is when you quit fighting.


If you feel sending letters, emails, faxes and phones calls is a waste of time, don't do it. And don't come here telling those who are sending them in that it is a waste or not to.
Shut up, hit 'Back' and find another thread to read.
It's not complicated or hard to grasp, if you don't want to fight don't but don't get in the way of those who are willing to fight.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:11 AM
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We need to adopt the sorts of attitudes that black activists had in the 50s and 60s; the government is not going to support us, the media will call us crazies and worse, and all the pro-2A cops we see on these forums will have no problem arresting people for violating the mag ban or whatever. We need to protest and fight things the way minority rights groups did in the past because that is what we are, a minority without a voice.

Secondly we need to figure out a way to organize as many CA gun owners as possible. California Rifle and Pistol is a joke and the NRA hasn't made nearly enough inroads. I think Calguns could be the organization we need.

Basically I think we need to raise Hell, but we need to do it in a smart way. If that makes sense.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:14 AM
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It's easy, get active in voting, and I don't mean just vote. We should actually work the phone banks, get others to vote, walk the precincts and create multiple gun rights advocacy groups (if the NRA is strong, then 5 different NRA's are even better). We could phone bank at the new establishments where like minded people are.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by retiredAFcop View Post
Just about every "gun person" I know who is in their 20s or 30s and was not brought up in a gun owning family came to gun ownership through video games and/or airsoft.
I have definitely noticed that as well.

ALL of the sub 30 year old gun owners I know became interested in firearms because of either video games or military service. NONE of them have a hunting background, not ONE.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:17 AM
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The effect of "realistic" FPS games cannot be understated.

We already have an ENTIRE GENERATION obsessed with firearms rapidly aging. It is only a matter of time until they start having an effect. Right now, they are simply too young to matter.

The anti's know this. Why do you think they are trying so hard to ban violent videogames (heck, the NRA is HELPING THEM ALONG)?! Why do you think they are trying so hard to prevent videogame makers from using "real" looking firearms?

Games are already getting kids interested in real shooting sports. The ideas about making it "educational" and "safety first" blah blah blah will fail. The average kid knows "educational" and will avoid it.

Start with realism. Have the firearms act realistically.

Many games come with "difficultly" levels. Why not add a "CA" or "NY" difficulty which accurately models the laws of CA? Have the human players be restricted, but all his enemies can, of course, use whatever is available today.

Or, for the multiplayer games, give the player the option of choosing which mode of play to use.

Give them variants; have the "cosmetic restrictions" separate from the truly functional restrictions... game balance wise, of course, you'd have to tweak the incentive structure.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:20 AM
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We need candidates to run. Everything else falls into place supporting them. To win an election you need to talk to people (including groups we are under represented now), present your ideas, and win them over with our ideas.

Go research how close your last cal rep's election was. If it was 10% or less in the bad reps favor let us know and start thinking who could do a better job and not be a anti gun nut.

We've got tons of issues that diverse groups of people should be interested in 'change' for.
Ruining AG in this state and the human costs (poor AG workers out of work... not just farm owners)
Horrible Schools.. even if we can't have choice for private schools we need to shake the existing system up... hard
Police needing more oversight in cities / supporting the dem machine will not produce change here.. like teachers, just another public employee union that can do no wrong
Out of control legislature - spending, fraud, kickbacks from supporters, passing laws exempted from admin review. They ran as reformers but became the new bosses.
Prosecutorial abuse - abuse of the public / what the hell is up with many of the DAs in this state?

Re: rebalance the power dynamic between the state gov and the public being the message. You've seen the left run a state for awhile now; are you not entertained? I'm not. Loosening gun laws will be part of this. As only part; the dems will keep harping on it because it is their strongest issue but as part of a large package of change they'll get drowned out for ignoring the wider issue of the power dynamic.

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Old 08-31-2013, 10:22 AM
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We need to change the minds of the youth. They are the key.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:29 AM
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The problem is the media is run by the liberal left. A good number of, maybe even a majority, of network execs are women and gay men.

It's a culture war for them, and until you change it from the inside... until the president of NBC, CNN, etc is pro-gun... it's a losing battle.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:33 AM
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I'd love to use the same stupid way of thinking of the liberast agenda on themselves. Ban their iPads, iPods, MacBooks and iPhones. No desirable electronics on your person - no victims of the street crime. Simple as they think no guns- no crime. Oh and before anyone says: " you can't kill with an iPhone"......really?
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Wanna bet what California's laws will look like in 30+ years?
And if I'd asked you that same question in 1970, when this state was leading the 2A charge in this nation with luminaries like Col Cooper, what would you have said?

Short-sighted views are not the answer.

Quote:
Sorry folks. The Judiciary is simply not a reliable strategy anymore, not with the opposition spamming the legal books with anti-rights laws. Even if they rule in our favor, 70 years is a long time to wait on a pro-rights verdict.
For all you know, we could get a pro-2A verdict from SCOTUS in 9 months. How does that suit you?


Quote:
We need to do the same. Instead of waiting on a Judicial bailout as a primary plan, lets get grassroots and start changing the culture from the bottom up. Make firearms ownership a cool and trendy act, not a reporbate sign of criminal intent. Once the sheeple treat firearms like they do iPods and iPads, they'll be amenable to voting in favor of the RKBA. Once we've made guns a positive cultural trait, people will accept and own firearms in greater numbers-which will influence the voting booth, and then we can turn the tide effectively.
In theory there's merit here, but there are also big holes. For example, I would argue that guns are already cool (because of the dominance of Hollywood action movies and video games in our culture over the last few decades). It seems clear, however, that the anti-2A media has effectively countered that by promoting hoplophobia and hysteria following high-profile (if statistically insignificant) shootings.


Quote:
Once we've made being a hoplophobe to be a sign of personal immaturity, their movement will die on the vine. We need to go beyond just taking people to the gun range-we need to get pro-gun media out there. Post fliers, make short movies, get the word about the RKBA into the mainstream. Put pro-gun activity on Facebook, make short independent films showing say , a horror movie where the herione pulls a Glock instead of getting killed by the masked bandit with a knife.
Solid suggestions. I think countering the MSM would win the war. I don't know if it can be done -- the media rules. Bloomberg owns (literally) much of it. Without Gene or Alan Gura or the NRA buying NBC & the NY Times & CNN, we can't fight in their league. Therefore, we're grassroots, which is (I feel) what's already going on.

We have "Assaulted", and apparently there's another documentary in the works. Many of us are taking non-shooters from our offices and personal lives to the range . Etc. We should all continue these efforts, but such things can take decades, so we need to be in this for the Long haul.
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ZNinerFan View Post
Nothing is going to change and nothing is going to happen. You can plan all you want but it doesn't change the fact that most gun owners, even the ones on this site, would rather piss and moan about stuff then actually do anything.

There have been a million "molon labe", "come and get them", "f this and that" posts but these same people failed at the following:

1. DID NOT VOTE
2. DID NOT REACH OUT TO THEIR REPS AND TALK TO THEM
3. WOULD RATHER POST ON THE NET THEN DO ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE

You guys hate the prison rape that is coming our way? Guess what, it is our flippin fault. We can preach to the choir all day long and pat each other on the back and say "we'll get em next time champ" but that doesn't change the fact we are the prison ***** of the California legislature.

Don't like it? Then make sure you vote the next election cycle. Go meet your Reps when they have office hours in your district and speak to them FACE TO FACE.

If the above doesn't apply to you then don't worry about it. If the above does apply to you, then do us all a favor and get out there and be active. The only way things will change is for people to change what they do one person at a time.

I know my State rep's by sight because I have met them face to face and spoken to them about my concerns. How many on here can claim the same?
You're foolishly yelling at the choir. I understand (and share) your frustration at our predicament, but the people in this forum are the ones who are politically active, and are trying to make a difference.

I would not make the same statement for the non-political forums on this site, and certainly not for the "average CA gun owner", and that's the base we need to activate, IMO.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:27 PM
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I'm interested to hear more about all of your ideas/suggestions on the game idea. I've been toying with the idea for the past few months. I might try something later on this year, but there's certain "game" aspects (I.e. how to keep someone entertained), conceptual things (beyond basic firearms safety), and legal (would it be OK to use 3d models of real world guns? Does it run into patent or trade dress issues?).

I was thinking that it might be fun to have a fairly realistic "simulation"-like game. Just to introduce people to the simple pleasure of shooting (without the stigma).
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:32 PM
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What do you mean 'we'?

You've been running around telling people that you moved out of State and that they should give California up as a lost cause and move away too.

Your plan was to flee while others stayed and fought and then tell them it was useless and a wasted effort.

Now 'we' need a new plan?
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:37 PM
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As to the subject, the first email I sent after the bills passed out of committee was to our NRA Liaison, Lobbyist and CGSSA BoD asking what the play was and that while they heard us they ignored us.

Believe me, the next steps and strategy are being worked on.

That's what's going on behind the scenes, that doesn't mean we sit and wait.
There are things we can do and actions we can take in concert with the background efforts.

Regardless of who started the thread if you've got an idea or thought post it up and let's see if it can be developed.
Grassroots means were ALL involved and have input so lefts hear it.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
COD Black Ops II played with 10 round mags, no grenades, and rifles that wont shoot three burst or must be reloaded by the action being broken open would cause mass disinterest. It would be like playing NRA's FPS video game.
How about incorporating the above as a "California Rules" penalty?
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Time to ruffle some feathers again folks.

Here's why. Those of you who put your faith in the courts must consider the following. The time between Miller vs US and Heller vs DC was 69 years. Even if we cut that time in half, that means its a good possibility we won't see another SCOTUS case on firearms for another 34 odd years.

Wanna bet what California's laws will look like in 30+ years?

Sorry folks. The Judiciary is simply not a reliable strategy anymore, not with the opposition spamming the legal books with anti-rights laws. Even if they rule in our favor, 70 years is a long time to wait on a pro-rights verdict.

So, we need a new plan . I hope to kickstart a PRODUCTIVE dialogue on the matter, not continual denials about the state of things. Miracles are good things, but a Deus Ex Machina is the stuff of poor planning.

The new idea I have is one the oppositon has effectively used against us-namely, we need to change the culture. At one time even California was pro-RKBA. That changed because the hoplophobes modified the culture, which then modified the laws in their perspective.

We need to do the same. Instead of waiting on a Judicial bailout as a primary plan, lets get grassroots and start changing the culture from the bottom up. Make firearms ownership a cool and trendy act, not a reporbate sign of criminal intent. Once the sheeple treat firearms like they do iPods and iPads, they'll be amenable to voting in favor of the RKBA. Once we've made guns a positive cultural trait, people will accept and own firearms in greater numbers-which will influence the voting booth, and then we can turn the tide effectively.

Once we've made being a hoplophobe to be a sign of personal immaturity, their movement will die on the vine. We need to go beyond just taking people to the gun range-we need to get pro-gun media out there. Post fliers, make short movies, get the word about the RKBA into the mainstream. Put pro-gun activity on Facebook, make short independent films showing say , a horror movie where the herione pulls a Glock instead of getting killed by the masked bandit with a knife.

By changing the media culture from the ground up, we'll influence the will and perspective of the sheeple. Once the masses join our new Pro-Gun media bandwagon, the politicians will have no choice but to respect the Constitution. Get the trendy guys and girls with satchels,drama degrees and patchouli in the Starbucks lounge to back gun rights, and we solve this problem permanently.


What will NOT work is sending angry emails to politicians who don't need your vote to stay in office. What will NOT work is believing blind obedience to a failed strategy will get a different result. The old plan's been done since the late 80s, and to what end?

Time to change the music folks.
While I don't disagree with you on the culture part (it's pretty obvious that a culture war is going on, we're losing it, and it has to be won in order to secure RKBA. In fact, a lot of us have been talking about making RKBA a non-partisan and "cool" issue for quite a long time), I gotta correct you on the judicial part. For one, those victories (if any) are important. It would be hard to attract the kind of people you're talking about (or any people) with no way for them to even try shooting. Of course, some of them might get attracted to something "forbidden by the man", but most won't bother, if it takes too much effort. So one direction doesn't contradict the other. Secondly, Miller wasn't the last gun case SCOTUS took before Heller. And there was another gun case taken soon after Heller - the McDonald one. At this point, 2nd and 3rd Amendments are the last largely unsettled by case law amendments, so SCOTUS might try to settle that case law.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
What do you mean 'we'?

You've been running around telling people that you moved out of State and that they should give California up as a lost cause and move away too.

Your plan was to flee while others stayed and fought and then tell them it was useless and a wasted effort.

Now 'we' need a new plan?
I think leaving the state is exactly the right approach. That doesn't mean you give up the fight. I can still contribute $ to the cause from the border. Call it a tactical retreat. Kinda like burning the crops and leaving the advancing enemy troops with nothing to eat. Eventually they will wither and die.

I will be firmly planted in Oregon by this time next week. My reason for leaving goes way beyond the 2A infringements being imposed. I will deny the state of California my income tax, sales tax, property tax, and my spending. Multiply me by thousands and that makes more difference than all the ignored letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc to firmly entrenched Democrat politicos. California will implode fast under the weight of their own stupidity. It's the John Galt approach that will work in the end.
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Old 08-31-2013, 1:05 PM
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If leaving is your choice that's fine, if you continue to help from there that's great.

But telling people that didn't leave that it's a lost cause, fighting is a waste of time and money and that the only answer is to leave and abandon the State is another thing entirely.

Then to come back saying 'we need a new plan' is just ridiculous.
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Old 08-31-2013, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
If leaving is your choice that's fine, if you continue to help from there that's great.

But telling people that didn't leave that it's a lost cause, fighting is a waste of time and money and that the only answer is to leave and abandon the State is another thing entirely.

Then to come back saying 'we need a new plan' is just ridiculous.
I don't disagree. It is not a lost cause. I just feel it's more effective to deny the beast it's fat tax fed meal. Also, by moving to a gun friendly state you keep it a gun friendly state.
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