Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-29-2013, 11:43 AM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Infographic — Privately Owned Firearms vs. Intentional Death Rates

UPDATE: An updated version of the graphic is shown in post #36. Feel free to check it out. :-)

As a graphic designer I thought it might be a good idea to create an infographic comparing the numbers of privately owned firearms with intentional death rates (suicides and homicides) of a number of countries around the world.



The design work I do doesn't normally involve infographics, but I definitely enjoyed creating this and can hopefully find time to gather more statistics and design some more of these.

I would like some feedback though if you have a moment:

1. How easy or hard was it to figure out what the main chart was saying? Did the chart make sense, especially for those of you that didn't already know these numbers? Or does it make you go, "What on earth are all those symbols, and what on earth do they mean?"

2. Anything you feel I should change? It can be with the info itself, the presentation of the info, or even the overall design of the graphic. If you feel something might work better if it was different, let me know.

3. Any other related stats or statements that you feel I should have included on THIS particular graphic? (Not stuff that would work better on future infographics.)

4. Any ideas on other eye-opening stats/facts that could be used for future infographics? While these will obviously be somewhat pro-gun if you look at them closely, I want them to be something a fence-sitter might read (possibly even an anti-gunner). So no strong rhetoric or overly-used stats/facts that would be dismissed immediately by the close-minded statist folks.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?

Last edited by jdouglas; 09-03-2013 at 11:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:09 PM
Hoooper Hoooper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 2,370
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I think its great, but graphs like these seem like they have to be quick hitters, if the person looking at it doesnt recognize right away what the numbers are they might move on. I would suggest adding value markers on top of each "bar" to make it quicker to read and compare.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:14 PM
FXR's Avatar
FXR FXR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 504
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Very nice overall. I don't recognize every flag, maybe add a country name line below the flags? It's a little confusing that some of the smaller violent crime stats have a number, and everything else is several skulls. I guess a skull = 5 units? Maybe define that, or better yet, put the number at the top of every column. You might include a link to a page where you compile all the specific data you used rather than just referencing Wikipedia.org, since there may well be conflicting information on many wikipedia pages.
__________________
"I'm so hard, b****, I carry TWO in the chamber!"
"Keeping people from being free is big business." -Bob Dylan
"There will be no horse-trading in the stable of civil rights. Either the Constitution means what it says, or it doesn't." -Brandon
"Most Rights that are accused of being 'created from whole cloth' exist because in fact the Bill of Rights is not limiting. Lack of liberty is statist thuggery.
If you don't like sodomy or abortion, don't do it." -Bill Wiese
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:15 PM
zhyla's Avatar
zhyla zhyla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,205
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Are there any countries that have high firearms ownership and high death rates? It would be good to include that. Otherwise it kind of looks like you're cherry picking your examples.

It was easy to read and understand.
__________________
compromise•conformity•assimilation•submission•igno rance•hypocrisy•brutality•the elite
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:18 PM
Chameleon Loco Chameleon Loco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,114
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

It looks good. It is very easy to understand and I like the little facts on the bottom of the chart.
__________________
Want to Buy: Ruger PC9 Magazine Buttstock Pouch
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:22 PM
robcoe's Avatar
robcoe robcoe is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 8,665
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

I would label the countries(I for one don't recognize all the flags) and provide a table with the hard numbers, not just the graphs which can be a bit hard to read.
__________________
Yes, I am an electrical engineer.
No, I will not fix your computer.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:23 PM
broofy broofy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 306
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

my only comment is to make all metrics consistent. Use gun homicides per 100K, not per 100. The use of different scales for the data makes the gun homicide numbers read as proportionally much higher and a quick read of the image looks like the US is the gun murder capital of the universe, thereby making the anti-gun argument.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:25 PM
broofy broofy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 306
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Also, I'd include other large 1st world countries so it looks more "apples to apples", like Russia.

One thing I'd be curious about is, what would happen if you added a metric for "number of cities over 250K population". It's not specifically gun related, but it is violence related.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:38 PM
onethumb onethumb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 182
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I would either use symbols or numbers or both--but be consistent. Ideally, use symbols to create the bar, then have a number above the bar. This allows you to remove the scale on the left side for a cleaner presentation.

Also, I would include Russia, China and India--especially considering that many immigrants come from China and India. You could also analyze the relationship between immigration source country and relative violence. in other words--who are the largest population groups who are immigrating here and are they from countries more or less violent than the USA? Might be hard data to find but I think it would tell a story about who to target with pro-2a marketing.

You might consider a different way of sorting. Possibly sort from highest intentional homicide rate to lowest. This way you can show the haphazard relationship more clearly.

Great work, though!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:39 PM
speedrrracer speedrrracer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,499
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Great start.

One thought that I don't see already posted:

Make the USA numbers & bottom line more clear: the USA flag has Mexico / Brazil info underneath it, and while we all know about the large number of weapons in the USA, viewers will want to learn about the other numbers, and how they compare with the other developed nations. Therefore, in the limited space for the USA, don't tell us what everyone knows and is not in dispute (the large number of civilian firearms) tell us the other stats.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-29-2013, 12:41 PM
lolkopter's Avatar
lolkopter lolkopter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 701
iTrader: 22 / 100%
Default

love it. and I like the summary blurbs on the bottom
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-29-2013, 1:07 PM
gomatty's Avatar
gomatty gomatty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 301
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhyla View Post
Are there any countries that have high firearms ownership and high death rates? It would be good to include that. Otherwise it kind of looks like you're cherry picking your examples.

It was easy to read and understand.
Because the anti's make sure they include statistics that show high gun ownership and low crime?
__________________
"Anybody can do it...with tools" - Raisin' Rey
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-29-2013, 1:29 PM
morfeeis's Avatar
morfeeis morfeeis is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Freeman in Mesa AZ
Posts: 7,601
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

works great, just used it in a debate to refute a Harvard study.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayn Rand View Post
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-29-2013, 1:36 PM
PhillyGunner PhillyGunner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Back East
Posts: 750
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Very Nice. Articulates the information without all those pesky numbers that turn people off.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-29-2013, 1:38 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
I think its great, but graphs like these seem like they have to be quick hitters, if the person looking at it doesnt recognize right away what the numbers are they might move on. I would suggest adding value markers on top of each "bar" to make it quicker to read and compare.
Good suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FXR View Post
Very nice overall. I don't recognize every flag, maybe add a country name line below the flags? It's a little confusing that some of the smaller violent crime stats have a number, and everything else is several skulls. I guess a skull = 5 units? Maybe define that, or better yet, put the number at the top of every column. You might include a link to a page where you compile all the specific data you used rather than just referencing Wikipedia.org, since there may well be conflicting information on many wikipedia pages.
You're right, adding country names would be helpful.

As for the skulls, yes each icon represents five units, which is why the numbers that were too small were just shown as decimals.

I'll probably go back in and add the original links to the three wikipedia pages I used as well (one for firearms, one for homicides, and one for suicides).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhyla View Post
Are there any countries that have high firearms ownership and high death rates? It would be good to include that. Otherwise it kind of looks like you're cherry picking your examples.

It was easy to read and understand.
Out of the countries with "very high" firearm ownership rates, Uruguay is the only one with more homicides. It isn't by a whole lot either, 4.8 (USA) vs 5.9 (Uruguay) per 100k. Most countries with high firearm ownership are actually very low on the intentional homicide chart, as most of them are European.

That's actually the strength behind the stats: countries with more privately owned firearms are typically much lower on the intentional homicides chart than countries with few privately owned firearms. (If only because countries with privately owned firearms have residents that are better off financially, and thus less likely to commit crimes.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
I would label the countries(I for one don't recognize all the flags) and provide a table with the hard numbers, not just the graphs which can be a bit hard to read.
I'll figure out something to make the main graph more readable. (After all, the point of an infographic is to make raw data easier to comprehend.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by broofy View Post
my only comment is to make all metrics consistent. Use gun homicides per 100K, not per 100. The use of different scales for the data makes the gun homicide numbers read as proportionally much higher and a quick read of the image looks like the US is the gun murder capital of the universe, thereby making the anti-gun argument.
Hmmm...maybe my graphic isn't very clear, because you read it very wrong. The little pistol icon represents the firearms themselves, not firearm murders.

The red skulls represent homicides of all kinds (which unfortunately includes justified homicides). The blue sad faces represent suicides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broofy View Post
Also, I'd include other large 1st world countries so it looks more "apples to apples", like Russia.

One thing I'd be curious about is, what would happen if you added a metric for "number of cities over 250K population". It's not specifically gun related, but it is violence related.
Russia is right there on the chart. They are fifth from the left.

This will be addressed in the updated version though, as all of the flags will have the name accompanying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onethumb View Post
I would either use symbols or numbers or both--but be consistent. Ideally, use symbols to create the bar, then have a number above the bar. This allows you to remove the scale on the left side for a cleaner presentation.

Also, I would include Russia, China and India--especially considering that many immigrants come from China and India. You could also analyze the relationship between immigration source country and relative violence. in other words--who are the largest population groups who are immigrating here and are they from countries more or less violent than the USA? Might be hard data to find but I think it would tell a story about who to target with pro-2a marketing.

You might consider a different way of sorting. Possibly sort from highest intentional homicide rate to lowest. This way you can show the haphazard relationship more clearly.

Great work, though!
Russia is there already. I'm not sure I'd trust numbers from China (given that they hide so much from their own people). India might work.

I do like your idea of sorting by homicide rate (or perhaps total death rate...possibly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
Great start.

One thought that I don't see already posted:

Make the USA numbers & bottom line more clear: the USA flag has Mexico / Brazil info underneath it, and while we all know about the large number of weapons in the USA, viewers will want to learn about the other numbers, and how they compare with the other developed nations. Therefore, in the limited space for the USA, don't tell us what everyone knows and is not in dispute (the large number of civilian firearms) tell us the other stats.
Good idea. I'll come up with some other interesting fact for that spot. ;-)

I have a couple other changes in mind as well. Right now the graphic is in magazine spread format (11 x 17), but I think I might make it a vertical layout to be more scroll/browser friendly.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?

Last edited by jdouglas; 08-29-2013 at 1:40 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-29-2013, 2:04 PM
pastureofmuppets's Avatar
pastureofmuppets pastureofmuppets is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Posts: 1,805
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Perfect. Leave the flags they don't need words, they are symbols and it is an infographic.

I really like the last statement on there, it doesn't ram it down your throat but definitely indicates that drug trade and murder rates go hand in hand.

Excellent job.
__________________
Host of the FAST OC podcast. and holster maker at Overwatch Holsters
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-29-2013, 2:10 PM
Old_Bald_Guy's Avatar
Old_Bald_Guy Old_Bald_Guy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Posts: 2,490
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Infographic — Privately Owned Firearms vs. Intentional Death Rates

Maybe someone mentioned this (I skimmed the thread), but it's essential that you specify your data sources on the image. I can use something like this for fence-sitters, but if its not going to be dismissed as propaganda it will need attribution to reliable sources. Go back to the Wikipedia entries and get the referenced primary sources. Double check the data, and use those sources on the graphic, not Wikipedia.
__________________
“Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-29-2013, 2:21 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastureofmuppets View Post
Perfect. Leave the flags they don't need words, they are symbols and it is an infographic.

I really like the last statement on there, it doesn't ram it down your throat but definitely indicates that drug trade and murder rates go hand in hand.

Excellent job.
Apparently I do need the names spelled out, because there were two or three people that didn't see Russia. (Maybe they were looking for the old Hammer and Sickle flag.)
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-29-2013, 2:24 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Maybe someone mentioned this (I skimmed the thread), but it's essential that you specify your data sources on the image. I can use something like this for fence-sitters, but if its not going to be dismissed as propaganda it will need attribution to reliable sources. Go back to the Wikipedia entries and get the referenced primary sources. Double check the data, and use those sources on the graphic, not Wikipedia.
I looked at the Wikipedia page for intentional deaths, and the source is the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC). The original XLS file is downloadable from the unodc.org website: http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-...istics2013.xls

The suicides are originally from the World Health Organization: http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre...cide_rates/en/

And the firearms per capita is taken from: http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...nnexe-4-EN.pdf

I'll probably add all three links above as my sources.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?

Last edited by jdouglas; 08-29-2013 at 2:29 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-29-2013, 2:35 PM
Old_Bald_Guy's Avatar
Old_Bald_Guy Old_Bald_Guy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Posts: 2,490
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Cool.
__________________
“Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-29-2013, 3:13 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 33,139
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

+1 to using rates per 100K.

I like the distinction between suicide and murders.

But the base information on gun ownership per capita is suspect; nobody really knows those numbers, and frankly I do not trust the reporting from the UN.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-29-2013, 6:03 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
+1 to using rates per 100K.

I like the distinction between suicide and murders.

But the base information on gun ownership per capita is suspect; nobody really knows those numbers, and frankly I do not trust the reporting from the UN.
I'm actually not very good with numbers...what do y'all mean when you say to make everything per 100k? Both the suicide and homicide rates are already shown per 100k, and unless I'm missing something (quite possible), it wouldn't make sense to show the number of firearms per 100k. If I did, the number of pistols I'd have to create would increase 100 times, and there wouldn't be enough room left on the graphic to show anything else.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:03 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 33,139
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Yes, that might be a bit of a problem, since the number of guns in the US is probably about 100K per 100K people. (But nobody really knows for sure - 330K guns for 330K people is a projection from BATF data; their manufacturing import/export data is OK, but their initial estimate is unsourced, and of course their numbers do not include illegally imported guns.)

I looked at the death spreadsheet from the UN; ordinarily UK and several others report deaths/1000, but I see the UN doc does the conversion to /100,000.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:15 PM
Shanesmyname's Avatar
Shanesmyname Shanesmyname is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 92
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

DON'T use wikipedia as your source. Use wikipedia's sources are your source.

But other than that, good job!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:18 PM
curtisfong's Avatar
curtisfong curtisfong is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,818
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Awesome chart. the little red skull looks like an alien though... perhaps a more conventional skull/crossbones would be more impactful?
__________________
The Rifle on the Wall

"“[S]cientific proof” of both gun-rights and gun-control theories “is very hard to get”; therefore, requiring “some substantial scientific proof to show that a [firearm] law will indeed substantially reduce crime and injury” is tantamount to applying strict scrutiny to, and almost certainly will lead to invalidation of, the law." - Kamela Harris

Lawyers and their Stockholm Syndrome
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:44 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Awesome chart. the little red skull looks like an alien though... perhaps a more conventional skull/crossbones would be more impactful?
Hah, I had someone else tell me that the skull looked like an alien. (To be honest I kinda agree.)

The full skull and crossbones wouldn't show up very well as it would have to be shrunk down considerably to fit the space. But I'll figure out something...
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:45 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanesmyname View Post
DON'T use wikipedia as your source. Use wikipedia's sources are your source.

But other than that, good job!
Had someone else tell me that, and that's what I'm planning on doing in the updated version (which I will hopefully find time to do in the very near future).
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-30-2013, 12:57 AM
2nd Mass 2nd Mass is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,250
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Great graphic and thank you for doing this!

Answers
1) It takes me a few minutes to get the hang of what's going on.
2) It could be helpful to move brazil and mexico to first position over korea. That way the first thing people are seeing is that less gun ownership doesn't lower homicides. It's a marketing technique. Also perhaps a caption under the flag with the countries name. Remember how bad our public school system is.
3) Nope
4) I think percentages and ratios would be great for you're next one. Percentages are easy to remember and can have an effective impact. E.g. people are twice as likely to be killed in Chicago (some of the strictest gun laws in US) than on active duty in Afghanistan. That one freaks people out when I use it. Showing gun ownership crime rate inverse correlation of Washington DC vs. Vermont. Remember that one being off the charts.
__________________
“Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people.” Mitt Romney 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-30-2013, 8:37 AM
mud99 mud99 is offline
Make Calguns Great Again
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,077
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

I think Yemen is #2 as far as percentage ownership.

BTW, I find your data on Mexico highly suspect. According to the Mexican government, they have very few guns, but Mexicans would tell you otherwise...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-30-2013, 8:39 AM
Hoooper Hoooper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 2,370
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mud99 View Post
BTW, I find your data on Mexico highly suspect. According to the Mexican government, they have very few guns, but Mexicans would tell you otherwise...
I think the graphic is meant to show legal ownership, not cartel/F&F ownership
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:15 AM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 9,693
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Looks very nice and to the point, but I have a scientific problem with these types of graphs in general - they are playing the correlation game, where the presented information is trying to show the connection between the firearm ownership and deaths and by doing so implies that this correlation is a valid measure to begin with. It's not.

To see the problem, consider plotting the same death rates against, e.g., car ownership per capita. You might say "what do cars have to do with firearms related deaths?" and you'd be right - nothing. The same goes for "legal firearm ownership" unless someone can prove that the legal firearms are causing the gun related deaths. Just looking at Chicago, we can have an educated guess that the real problem is gangs and organized crime, not random acts of violence by legal gun owners.

There are two statistically correct things we can do with these types of graphs: use similar charts to plot Bradys data, but in such a way to depict their own "correlation fallacy," or, use this particular chart to show the lack of causality (lack of correlation implies lack of causality). Since the plot already does the latter, I'd try to make it much more explicit to avoid making it look like the data is cherry-picked (even some in this thread pointed it out).

So, I would add to the current graph several European nations where the correlation is opposite (Brady data) then add a sarcastic comment such as "Bradys believe legal guns cause violence, but it appears to be true only in some countries. Do Bradys also believe HIV causes AIDS, but only in some countries? Gangs and organized crime are responsible for gun violence, not legal firearm owners and industrialization. Countries with organized crime and gangs have higher rate of gun violence - industrialization has nothing to do with it. Do Bradys really believe industrialization prevents gun crime?"

Just my 2c.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:35 AM
Frito Bandido's Avatar
Frito Bandido Frito Bandido is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 555
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Mexico and Brazil need moar guns!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:46 AM
Nrai2020's Avatar
Nrai2020 Nrai2020 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Fresno/Modesto.. but in SoCal often
Posts: 2,181
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

Awesome... great job!!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:59 AM
chead's Avatar
chead chead is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,045
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Why does Brazil share a weed leaf with Mexico?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalK9.com View Post
Hecka funny all my friends with AR's call them "clips" but I call them bullet holder things lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeR View Post
So suck it HK, If I wanted an $800 pistol with a crap trigger I would just go buy 2 Glocks.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-30-2013, 11:10 AM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Looks very nice and to the point, but I have a scientific problem with these types of graphs in general - they are playing the correlation game, where the presented information is trying to show the connection between the firearm ownership and deaths and by doing so implies that this correlation is a valid measure to begin with. It's not.

To see the problem, consider plotting the same death rates against, e.g., car ownership per capita. You might say "what do cars have to do with firearms related deaths?" and you'd be right - nothing. The same goes for "legal firearm ownership" unless someone can prove that the legal firearms are causing the gun related deaths. Just looking at Chicago, we can have an educated guess that the real problem is gangs and organized crime, not random acts of violence by legal gun owners.

There are two statistically correct things we can do with these types of graphs: use similar charts to plot Bradys data, but in such a way to depict their own "correlation fallacy," or, use this particular chart to show the lack of causality (lack of correlation implies lack of causality). Since the plot already does the latter, I'd try to make it much more explicit to avoid making it look like the data is cherry-picked (even some in this thread pointed it out).

So, I would add to the current graph several European nations where the correlation is opposite (Brady data) then add a sarcastic comment such as "Bradys believe legal guns cause violence, but it appears to be true only in some countries. Do Bradys also believe HIV causes AIDS, but only in some countries? Gangs and organized crime are responsible for gun violence, not legal firearm owners and industrialization. Countries with organized crime and gangs have higher rate of gun violence - industrialization has nothing to do with it. Do Bradys really believe industrialization prevents gun crime?"

Just my 2c.
Good points. But like I said earlier, there just aren't any European countries with high numbers of guns per capita with accompanying high homicide rates. The data looks like it's clearly in our favor because it IS in our favor.

The only country that might work is Uruguay (South America). The homicide rate there is only marginally higher than the USA, and it still has fewer guns per capita than many of the European countries.

Serbia, number 2 on the list in guns per capita (according to that particular source; although everybody agrees the USA is at the top, many people disagree on the numbers that follow), has an intentional homicide rate equal to the "Utopian" United Kingdom. I'd add them to the list, but then it might look like I'm cherry picking the data even more...

Anyway, like you said, all this goes to show that it's certain types of people that are responsible for violent crimes, not guns. The statistics show that if the people are well-behaved, the number of weapons in that society will have no negative effects.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:09 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default



Here is an updated version of the infographic. I incorporated some of the suggestions.

Notable changes:
1. India and Germany added.
2. Iceland and New Zealand removed.
3. Numbers added to each stat, and the former stacks of symbols are now (mostly) solid bars with a single symbol.
4. Original data sources are provided at the bottom.
5. The chart is organized from lowest intentional homicide rate to the highest. (Showing the lack of correlation between intentional deaths and guns per capita.)
6. Reordering of the "quick facts" at the bottom; one was rewritten.
7. Rewording of the intro text at the top.
8. Names of the countries added (for those who are geographically challenged ).
9. Updates to some of the numbers (for consistency).

I didn't make the graphic into a vertical format as that would be an even more time-consuming project.
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:23 PM
2nd Mass 2nd Mass is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,250
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

jdouglas, you nailed it! Like the bar graph with symbol at top instead of all symbols. Really looks clean.

Btw, just and idea, for the first quick facts, what would you think about rewriting it? Such as "US has 13 times more firearms than the UK but only 4 times the homicide rate"

It says the same thing but reframes the context. The one you have makes sense but the first thing I read was "US has 13 times the homicide rate of the UK...." then I could hear anti's screaming, see, see how dangerous guns are. Might sound lame but proper framing helps get the right message across.

Also perhaps if you do a future project I believe I had read that per capita the US is close to the UK in homicide rate. Per capita makes the same argument but the favorable numbers become clearer for the US without people having to think to much.

Either way it looks great!
__________________
“Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people.” Mitt Romney 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:28 PM
AeroEngi's Avatar
AeroEngi AeroEngi is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 2,883
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Mass View Post
jdouglas, you nailed it! Like the bar graph with symbol at top instead of all symbols. Really looks clean.

Btw, just and idea, for the first quick facts, what would you think about rewriting it? Such as "US has 13 times more firearms than the UK but only 4 times the homicide rate"

It says the same thing but reframes the context. The one you have makes sense but the first thing I read was "US has 13 times the homicide rate of the UK...." then I could hear anti's screaming, see, see how dangerous guns are. Might sound lame but proper framing helps get the right message across.

Also perhaps if you do a future project I believe I had read that per capita the US is close to the UK in homicide rate. Per capita makes the same argument but the favorable numbers become clearer for the US without people having to think to much.

Either way it looks great!
Great job on the infographic OP! However, I would use the suggestion given by 2nd Mass in his last post. It sounds better.

Sent from my Droid Maxx using Tapatalk 2
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:34 PM
jdouglas's Avatar
jdouglas jdouglas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I was debating the wording of the US vs UK fact box thingy. I purposely went with a more generic wording to make it seem a little less "pro-gun," while still stating the facts clearly.

I'm still not sure about it though, so if enough people bring it up, I'll probably change it.

(If anybody has a suggestion for a completely different fact to put in that box, I'm all ears.)
__________________
WARNING: THE ABOVE POST MAY CONTAIN EXCESSIVE USE OF SARCASM.


Are you a member?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:48 PM
pastureofmuppets's Avatar
pastureofmuppets pastureofmuppets is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Posts: 1,805
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

2ndMass has a really good point about the wording, lead with what you want people to remember I think is sound advice.

Just an interesting link about the statistics of UK Vs. US in terms of homocide rates:

http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/...der-rates.html
__________________
Host of the FAST OC podcast. and holster maker at Overwatch Holsters
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:13 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.