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  #1  
Old 05-13-2016, 4:46 PM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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Default COAL all over the map on .270 winchester...what gives ?

COAL is all over the place in the reloading book on .270 winchester....for the exact bullet I have it lists 3.335 ...that leaves it almost a 1/4 inch from the cannelure....lol

Factory ammo in same grain weight is 3.136.

Book shows a low"lyman book 49th edition" 3.090 - 3.340 to high.

Does this caliber have a moon jump in the chamber ?

I understand different projectile profiles will change ogive distance in different weights, but in 140 grain I have the exact bullet the book is referencing and I am 3/16ths minimal from the cannelure at 3.335 coal.


No I do not have a ogive comparator.......yet.


Any help out there ?
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2016, 4:56 PM
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Don't worry about the cannelure it's only there if you're going to crimp and there is no need to crimp.
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  #3  
Old 05-13-2016, 5:08 PM
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Load to mag length or to lands,but to the lands you will be single round loading.Just because your bullet has a cannelure doesn't mean the bullet needs to be crimped.
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Old 05-13-2016, 5:42 PM
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Thanks for the info...it has a mag, but I usually load one at a time.


From the reading I have been doing, all the stuff you can`t find room for in garage will fit in the free bore/ throat of a .270 win rifle.

Apparently a huge jump is common and does not hurt in this caliber.

I guess I will need to load a dummy round and find the lands just to know what is happening.

I am going to check the mag for length, but memory serves me there was a ton of room in the mag.

Here I thought using powder and projectiles from the book was going to be straight forward...lol

The 1/4 inch from the cannelure made me stop immediatly and do some checking.....
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Old 05-13-2016, 5:47 PM
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Using a sized case no primer or bullet,seat a bullet long ,slowly turning seating stem down alittle at a time until cartridge fits in chamber.You should be able to feel case shoulder hit chamber shoulder.At this point seat bullet .020-.050 deeper and call it good enough.
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Old 05-13-2016, 5:54 PM
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Ask the mods for a name change?

Or buy the bullets that the book is using, maybe.
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Old 05-13-2016, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
Ask the mods for a name change?

Or buy the bullets that the book is using, maybe.
I think maybe you need glasses or RIF{ reading is fundamental} was discontinued when you were younger.......just kidding.

My post a few above yours states not only did I order the exact bullet in the book, I also am using the same powder....

I would have just went by the book if the cannelure was not exposed by 1/4 inch....seemed prudent as a new loader to ask questions.....
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Old 05-13-2016, 6:19 PM
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In my opinion if your going to reload you might as well get the most out of it.
The picture above shows two 338 Lapua Improved rounds both loaded to 3.065 inches at the lands.
One has a 300 grain Sierra and the other has a 300 grain Berger.
Once you find the best seating depth it will be universal even though the over all length will be all over the map due to the various bullet profiles.
The pictured pair measure 3.972 inches and 3.875 inches for over all length even though they both touch the lands at the same point.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20160513_190910.jpg (104.7 KB, 79 views)
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Old 05-13-2016, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post

In my opinion if your going to reload you might as well get the most out of it.
The picture above shows two 338 Lapua Improved rounds both loaded to 3.065 inches at the lands.
One has a 300 grain Sierra and the other has a 300 grain Berger.
Once you find the best seating depth it will be universal even though the over all length will be all over the map due to the various bullet profiles.
The pictured pair measure 3.972 inches and 3.875 inches for over all length.
I appreciate the info !

I am with you, one of my goals in reloading was to increase accuracy as that part is free/only costs time.

Looks like I need a ogive comparator{not sure the proper name of the tool} and do some measurements to the lands on my rifle.

Thank goodness I only loaded 5 to the cannelure so far at the lowest grain charge weight.

I think instead of pulling them I will shoot a 5 shot group with them and then with 5 seated just off the lands with the same charge weight and compare them for reference.

Thanks, I see why there was soo much room in the mag and why oal was all over the map....I suspected it had to do with ogive differences.


Just struck me that I bet this was probably a years worth of learnig curve in this thread already if this was the 60`s when we did not have internet to be able to compare notes as easily as we do now, unless you happened to run into a really good handloader and were smart enuff to pay attention.

I was fortunate enuf to run into a lot of good people when I was young and a few of those times I was smart enuff to listen.


I just want to say thanks to all who have helped, it just dawned on me how valuable a resource these forums and people like you are on the internet really are, I think a lot people take for granted how easy it is to just join a forum or start typing out questions and get answers.

Thanks everyone !
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2016, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unretarded View Post
I think maybe you need glasses or RIF{ reading is fundamental} was discontinued when you were younger.......just kidding.

My post a few above yours states not only did I order the exact bullet in the book, I also am using the same powder....

I would have just went by the book if the cannelure was not exposed by 1/4 inch....seemed prudent as a new loader to ask questions.....
I know what you posted. Either the book is wrongish.. or
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Old 05-13-2016, 8:34 PM
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A few things to keep in mind;
Factory barrels are chambered for the heaviest Bullet that can be fired in that round, so there is usually a lot of free-bore. Unless you want to use a heavy Bullet, don't worry about the distance to the lands.
The important thing about hand loading is finding the "node" of velocity for your Bullet. Fine tuning the velocity will often involve changing the depth of the bullet to change the pressure and velocity, not necessarily the jump to the lands.
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Old 05-13-2016, 9:40 PM
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I just ran some mock up rounds in the chamber.

Apparently the jump is pretty big, the 1/4 inch of cannelure past the case is pretty close to the lands., but not quite to them.

The mag is plenty long with a 1/8th inch left after seated to just touching the lands.

From doing some reading most say little is to be gained in .270 loading to the lands and most brands of these calibers have a huge freebore.

I will load some at the lyman/hornady provided measurements with the exposed cannelure and some more to the cannelure and shoot 10 of each to see the difference.

It was under or right at 1 moa with the factory ammo with the huge jump. I will not be shooting matches and groups on paper with this rifle. If nothing over 1/4 to half moa happens with the oal, I will not play with getting super close to the lands.

It is good to know if you follow the book or use the cannelure you will never get close to making them too long in this gun.
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Old 05-13-2016, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM View Post
I know what you posted. Either the book is wrongish.. or
As a new loader I was scared to trust the book, why lyman decided to test that bullet with almost a 1/4 inch of the cannelure past the case and not mention that is beyond me.

If they put out bad data and it blows my eyes out of my head or my fingers off, I could care less at that point about filing a lawsuit, better safe than sorry.


I am not sure I will trust any book data if it seems funny in any way or I do not know how to confirm it myself that it is safe.

Now I know how to get a ruff estimate to the lands by using a dummy case a bullet and a magic marker, precise enuff in this case to stay a safe distance away from the lands.

If I was to try and get real close to the lands for accuracy I would buy a real tool made for this.


I was just givin you hard time too...... I understood what you meant .


Sometimes the flavor of the conversation gets lost in text. The first thing I question is me as being wrong since I am new, I did not think the book was wrong, I just did not know enuff to understand what was happening, but now I do.
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Old 05-13-2016, 9:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thospb View Post
A few things to keep in mind;
Factory barrels are chambered for the heaviest Bullet that can be fired in that round, so there is usually a lot of free-bore. Unless you want to use a heavy Bullet, don't worry about the distance to the lands.
The important thing about hand loading is finding the "node" of velocity for your Bullet. Fine tuning the velocity will often involve changing the depth of the bullet to change the pressure and velocity, not necessarily the jump to the lands.
Thanks, I am working up powder charges now to find the node.
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Old 05-14-2016, 2:42 AM
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You want to set your seating depth as long as possible when working on your powder charge.
That means either to the lands or to maximum magazine length whichever is shorter.
Seating depth is the second biggest accuracy improvement you will find in reloading.
If you look at the 25-06 data from Sierra bullets they list the starting load in one book as higher than the maximum load in another book.
They are not crazy they have changed the freebore and the Overall Length considerably and it makes a huge difference in how much powder gets used even for the same exact bullet.
What happens in a reloading manual is they write data that will work in many guns not what is best in one particular gun. That is why we reload so we can take full advantage of our combination and not a universal one size fits all.
Most centerfire 22 calibers like a bullet seated with 0.018-0.023 bullet jump for best accuracy but with all the different freebores it would be impossible to list every combination.
A barrel with 7 twist rate is intended to stabilize heavy bullets while a 14 twist is limited to lighter bullets and should have a shorter freebore to take full advantage of there use.
What we often see on this forum when someone is working up a load is there rifle is not set up to take advantage of hand loading.
By that I mean they are using the wrong target the wrong scope the trigger pull is too heavy and the rest is all wrong to get the most out of what they are shooting and it makes it difficult to decipher.
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Old 05-14-2016, 9:57 AM
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Thanks I appreciate the info.

I can see that coal length with calipers using the bullet tip is all over the map. I am going to need to some better tools to close in on precise measurements.

I am going to run with what the book has on coal for this bullet as it is closer to the lands than the cannelure by about 3/16th`s of a inch, but well before the lands a safe distance.

It has to be better than factory ammo untill I get some tools....ogive comparator and a land measuring tool.


The learning curve is happening quickly on this cartridge.......223 was fairly easy compared to this. We will see what .308 holds in store for me.
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Old 05-14-2016, 2:42 PM
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OP
Here are two more pictures for you to look over.
One shows a 223 case next to a 300 grain Sierra and a 300 grain Berger. In the picture it is easy to see one has a longer boattail and one is much longer than the other.
If your particular gun likes 0.020 off of the lands just about every bullet you buy will like that same seating depth.
The COAL will be all over the map but when using a comparator they will all be the same length at the point where the bullet makes contact with the lands.
The other picture shows you the comparator tightened onto a cheap digital caliper measuring the seating depth.
You can pick up a 6 inch digital caliper from Harbor Freight for $12 and a comparator from Sinclair for $15.
It will be the best money you ever spent.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20160514_152146.jpg (101.2 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20160514_152901.jpg (99.1 KB, 29 views)
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Last edited by LynnJr; 05-14-2016 at 2:50 PM..
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Old 05-14-2016, 3:09 PM
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There is a lot more useful information in the loading manuals than merely the recipe for a given cartridge. I highly suggest before using any manual as a "Bible" read the intro page first. Given you used the Lyman 49th the test specifications indicates the data for a 270 Winchester came from testing in a universal receiver. Keep that in mind as to comparisons to ammo shot in an actual firearm. Your results may vary.
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