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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

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  #1  
Old 01-15-2018, 4:46 PM
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Default Self defense bullets

Self defense rounds are pricey, but really, aren't they just hollow points?

So shouldn't we be able to duplicate SD rounds fairly easily?

For 9mm - any recommended projectiles? I'm guessing that some jacketed hollow points is best. Then load up a hot but safe charge.

Any recommendation on weight?

Thanks!
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Old 01-15-2018, 5:25 PM
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I have duplicated Gold Dot ammunition in 9mm 124, .40 180, 10mm 200, 357 sig 124, 357 Mag 158 and 45 ACP 230.
All you need is a chrono. I usually get a bout 50 fps lower than advertised velocity.
I load the most accurate load at the closest factory velocity.
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Old 01-15-2018, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by maxx03 View Post
I have duplicated Gold Dot ammunition in 9mm 124, .40 180, 10mm 200, 357 sig 124, 357 Mag 158 and 45 ACP 230.
All you need is a chrono. I usually get a bout 50 fps lower than advertised velocity.
I load the most accurate load at the closest factory velocity.
Plus 1.
Also, hst, hydrashok, Barnes, gold dots all great. Projos pop up from time to time. Get them when you find them.

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Old 01-15-2018, 7:42 PM
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No legal issues using handloads for SD?
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Old 01-15-2018, 8:11 PM
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Sure you can. Some projectiles aren't available as components, but others are. XTP is prolly the best value of a component SD designed bullet. Gold Dot is right in there too. Not all HP's are created equal.
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Old 01-15-2018, 8:35 PM
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No legal issues using handloads for SD?
Yes, there are. Not a wise idea for many reasons.
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Old 01-15-2018, 8:46 PM
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Yes, there are. Not a wise idea for many reasons.
FUD
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Old 01-15-2018, 9:00 PM
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Yes, there are. Not a wise idea for many reasons.
What are those reasons?
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Old 01-15-2018, 9:06 PM
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Ok I found this argument on that topic;

https://gundigest.com/handguns/conce...oncealed-carry

Which has some compelling points.

However I think if you can get round close to your chosen rounds, then practicing with them would be a good thing.

And of course having them at hand at home is better than factory fmj probably.
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Old 01-15-2018, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
Ok I found this argument on that topic;

https://gundigest.com/handguns/conce...oncealed-carry

Which has some compelling points.

However I think if you can get round close to your chosen rounds, then practicing with them would be a good thing.

And of course having them at hand at home is better than factory fmj probably.
Ayoob should stick to ballistics rather than legal advice.

The ONE case he cites, the accused was actually released as forensics couldn't duplicate the load which killed his GF with lack of powder burns.

No one can find a case where a good shoot became a bad shoot based on conventional ammo.
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Old 01-15-2018, 9:24 PM
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I am not a fan of Ayoob's , as many can clearly tell, but I carry Federal HSTs. I can certainly work up a load that matches many premium commercial cartridges, but my question is whats the benefit of doing so for SD?

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  #12  
Old 01-15-2018, 9:47 PM
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I am not a fan of Ayoob's , as many can clearly tell, but I carry Federal HSTs. I can certainly work up a load that matches many premium commercial cartridges, but my question is whats the benefit of doing so for SD?

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About $15/box of 20 (without a CA premium).
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
Self defense rounds are pricey, but really, aren't they just hollow points?
There is much more to a modern self-defense round than simply having a hollow point. The design and construction of the bullet plays a big role in determining effectiveness.

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So shouldn't we be able to duplicate SD rounds fairly easily?
Duplicating the velocity is relatively easy. Duplicating the ability of the bullet to reliability expand under varying conditions is much more difficult.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:08 PM
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There is much more to a modern self-defense round than simply having a hollow point. The design and construction of the bullet plays a big role in determining effectiveness.



Duplicating the velocity is relatively easy. Duplicating the ability of the bullet to reliability expand under varying conditions is much more difficult.
Several of the best SD bullets are available as components. XTP and GDHP are well respected and reasonably priced.

I'd agree that Xtreme, Montana Gold, etc. prolly aren't the best choice for SD.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:17 PM
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Ayoob should stick to ballistics rather than legal advice.
Well legal advice and expert testimony is how he made his living, to be fair.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Several of the best SD bullets are available as components. XTP and GDHP are well respected and reasonably priced.
Yes, if the same bullet that is used in a commercial SD round is available for purchase, then you can certainly duplicate its performance. As you pointed out, both the XTP and GDHP are excellent bullets.

That said, many other highly-respected bullets (e.g. HST, Ranger-T, PDX1, etc) aren't available as components, and/or they aren't reasonably priced.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:45 PM
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About $15/box of 20 (without a CA premium).
Ok, fair enough. Reloading can save a ton of money if you shoot a lot.

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  #18  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:46 PM
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Well legal advice and expert testimony is how he made his living, to be fair.
Expert witness? Sure. Legal advice? Not really.

He's a tactical, use of force and ballistics guy.

That he can't support his conclusion with any evidence is all I really need to know. The one he does cite, is rather contrary to his conclusion.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:48 PM
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Expert witness? Sure. Legal advice? Not really.
Well lawyers hire him for advice - I guess you can call it what you like
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by boo2112 View Post
Yes, if the same bullet that is used in a commercial SD round is available for purchase, then you can certainly duplicate its performance. As you pointed out, both the XTP and GDHP are excellent bullets.

That said, many other highly-respected bullets (e.g. HST, Ranger-T, PDX1, etc) aren't available as components, and/or they aren't reasonably priced.
I've been lucky to find a few here and there.

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Old 01-15-2018, 10:55 PM
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Well lawyers hire him for advice - I guess you can call it what you like
Whatever dude. They hire him for his technical analysis (ballistics, use of force, etc.), not legal opinions regarding ammo used.

When he, or you, or anyone else can show significant evidence that a good shoot became a bad shoot hinging on commercial-like ammo, I'll listen. Until then, he's a FUDster in this venue.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:00 PM
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I've been lucky to find a few here and there.
What brands and price?
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Whatever dude. They hire him for his technical analysis (ballistics, use of force, etc.), not legal opinions regarding ammo used.

When he, or you, or anyone else can show significant evidence that a good shoot became a bad shoot hinging on commercial-like ammo, I'll listen. Until then, he's a FUDster in this venue.
What's the value in taking the risk? I (used to, will again) reload a lot, but for SD I just use PDX1 or something with XTP or whatever. It's not a big deal and it eliminates one factor. Where is the harm?
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:04 PM
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What brands and price?
On sale? 500 for 39.00 or 50.00. Depending on pricing. I've purchased, 9 x 124, 9 x 147, .40 x 155 165 180.
Brands?
Hst, hydrashok, gold dot and Barnes. Nereloaders, American reload, rmr. Best price was 29 per 500 but that was last year.

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Old 01-15-2018, 11:05 PM
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Ok, fair enough. Reloading can save a ton of money if you shoot a lot.

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If you're already reloading for other reasons (reloading for SD ammo alone would be pretty silly), the biggest savings are in the higher end ammo. The equipment is already amortized. The additional cost for SD and premium hunting ammo is somewhat marginal vs. range fodder. On the shelf, premium ammo sells for...a premium.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:08 PM
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What's the value in taking the risk? I (used to, will again) reload a lot, but for SD I just use PDX1 or something with XTP or whatever. It's not a big deal and it eliminates one factor. Where is the harm?
Well...a lot of folks aren't going to purchase enough at $1/round for 9mm to truly verify their firearm likes that ammo. Seems like a big risk to me.

What factor have you eliminated other than in your mind?
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:20 PM
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On sale? 500 for 39.00 or 50.00. Depending on pricing. I've purchased, 9 x 124, 9 x 147, .40 x 155 165 180.
Brands?
Hst, hydrashok, gold dot and Barnes. Nereloaders, American reload, rmr. Best price was 29 per 500 but that was last year.
Thanks. I guess finding them on sale is the key. Otherwise, at least for me, there isn't enough of a price savings to justify the time/effort to reload (for example, I've been able to get 9mm HST for about $23 per box of 50).

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Old 01-15-2018, 11:23 PM
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Thanks. I guess finding them on sale is the key. Otherwise, at least for me, there isn't enough of a price savings to justify the time/effort to reload.
Agreed. I got a few when they were on sale for 89 bucks for 1500 delivered. That was too cheap to pass up.
Not sure if it will ever go down that cheap again.

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Old 01-15-2018, 11:34 PM
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Thanks. I guess finding them on sale is the key. Otherwise, at least for me, there isn't enough of a price savings to justify the time/effort to reload (for example, I've been able to get 9mm HST for about $23 per box of 50).
How much do you have to save to make any reloading "worth it"? I don't think anyone would suggest reloading just "tactical" ammo.

And with mail order gone in CA, you'll likely never see 9mm HST for $23/50. Midway (OOS) charges $26/20. I'll take $1/rd savings...even $.25/rd.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:02 AM
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How much do you have to save to make any reloading "worth it"? I don't think anyone would suggest reloading just "tactical" ammo.
Reloading would have to save me more than my hourly billing rate. Otherwise, it doesn't make financial sense for me spend an hour reloading when I could just work/bill an extra hour and buy my ammo.

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And with mail order gone in CA, you'll likely never see 9mm HST for $23/50. Midway (OOS) charges $26/20. I'll take $1/rd savings...even $.25/rd.
I pick up 9mm HST for $23/50 rounds at the LAX Ammo retail store.

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Old 01-16-2018, 12:40 AM
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Whatever dude. They hire him for his technical analysis (ballistics, use of force, etc.), not legal opinions regarding ammo used.

.
How do you know who Massad Oyoob is or isn't working for? In your above post, whom is, "they"?

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Old 01-16-2018, 1:49 AM
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I have duplicated Gold Dot ammunition in 9mm 124, .40 180, 10mm 200, 357 sig 124, 357 Mag 158 and 45 ACP 230.
All you need is a chrono. I usually get a bout 50 fps lower than advertised velocity.
I load the most accurate load at the closest factory velocity.


What’s your powder of choice? Pm if you get a chance.
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Old 01-16-2018, 6:47 AM
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There may or may not be a legal aspect to loading your own SD rounds, but for me it’s easier to use factory. I got a great deal on 6k rounds of rangerT last fall, plus the several cases I already owned, so I’m set for life!

Last year(no longer avail in ca) TSUSA had hst9 for $20/box and 40 for 15/box. Def not worth it to load your own at those prices...

And if your just loading hollow points for practice, why not just use plated bullets loaded to similar speeds to keep costs down? Paper targets don’t care what bullets you’re using. And if (when?!) SHTF ball ammo works just fine too...
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Old 01-16-2018, 7:44 AM
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How do you know who Massad Oyoob is or isn't working for? In your above post, whom is, "they"?
I'm not going to googlefu for you.

He's been discussed many times, many places and there's a wealth of information at your fingertips.
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Old 01-16-2018, 7:47 AM
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There may or may not be a legal aspect to loading your own SD rounds, but for me it’s easier to use factory. I got a great deal on 6k rounds of rangerT last fall, plus the several cases I already owned, so I’m set for life!

Last year(no longer avail in ca) TSUSA had hst9 for $20/box and 40 for 15/box. Def not worth it to load your own at those prices...

And if your just loading hollow points for practice, why not just use plated bullets loaded to similar speeds to keep costs down? Paper targets don’t care what bullets you’re using. And if (when?!) SHTF ball ammo works just fine too...
How's $12/50 (for XTP or GDHP)?

Everyone has their own idea of what price differential makes reloading "worth it". I'd reload for zero savings as I enjoy the process. My equipment is already amortized.
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Old 01-16-2018, 9:35 AM
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For 9mm, Gold Dots are probably the best SD projectile you will be able to find as a component. Back in the day I used to buy Silvertips as a component. Golden Sabers also work but I don't care for the step in the jacket. XTP's are great for range practice, but I haven't had much luck getting them to expand.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:42 AM
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For 9mm, Gold Dots are probably the best SD projectile you will be able to find as a component. Back in the day I used to buy Silvertips as a component. Golden Sabers also work but I don't care for the step in the jacket. XTP's are great for range practice, but I haven't had much luck getting them to expand.
Most have a very different experience.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:22 AM
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So bulk jacketed hollow points would be better than FMJ, but not as good as the specially designed SD projectiles.

I admit I have no way of testing "effectiveness" (ie; not ballistic gelatin, etc), the only thing I could hope to match with what I have would be choosing an "effective" bullet design, and velocity (by tweaking powder or powder charge).

Some good points here, even with the tangential discussion on legalities.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:35 AM
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So bulk jacketed hollow points would be better than FMJ, but not as good as the specially designed SD projectiles.

I admit I have no way of testing "effectiveness" (ie; not ballistic gelatin, etc), the only thing I could hope to match with what I have would be choosing an "effective" bullet design, and velocity (by tweaking powder or powder charge).

Some good points here, even with the tangential discussion on legalities.
Water jugs (people are mostly water), wet newsprint/phone books (if they still exist). While not "calibrated" like ballistic gelatin, work well for qualitative analysis. You can add obstacles (dry wall, sheetmetal, textiles, etc.) in front of the medium to evaluate that aspect.

Check out boxoftruth website for ideas.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Water jugs (people are mostly water), wet newsprint/phone books (if they still exist). While not "calibrated" like ballistic gelatin, work well for qualitative analysis. You can add obstacles (dry wall, sheetmetal, textiles, etc.) in front of the medium to evaluate that aspect.

Check out boxoftruth website for ideas.
Actually, I'm mostly limited to indoor ranges that allow a piece of cardboard, or their own paper targets on hangers.

I think for me the drywall obstacle would be interesting.
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