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  #121  
Old 08-16-2013, 2:10 PM
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Dana,

Why hasn't your company published dispositive, legally-binding authority by CA DOJ on the possession and use of your product?

Why isn't your company funding the legal defenses of people being prosecuted for possessing and using your product?

Is it your claim that the letters and analysis by John H. Brooke, an attorney in Indiana, should be relied upon by people who buy, sell, possess, or use Tannerite in California?

-Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.

Tanneite(r) Binary Targets DO NOT cause fires. If you are going to post about arrests and individual cases, you need to have all of the facts and post accordingly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are repeatedly making false claims with no evidence to back it up. Tannerite(r) brand targets are to ONLY be used as instructed and directed. It is only to be used as a shot indicator. There are laws that can be broken if you misuse the product, however, it the responsibility of the customer to read the directions, check to make sure it is ok to use the product in a particular area, and to use common sense in regard to safety. For proper use information visit www.tannerite.com.
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  #122  
Old 08-16-2013, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Ocean View Post
You started a 3 acre fire and thought there wouldn't be consequences? I've shot tannerite and in order to start a fire with it you had to have been very reckless, careless, or ignorant. That's not anyone's fault but your own and your legal defense is not anyone's responsibility but yours.
Fires start when shooting sometimes, even with all reasonable precautions taken and no tannerite involved. It just takes one spark. But when there is a fire and a subsequent investigation reveals tannerite was being used, the witch hunt will begin. Then it won't matter what started the fire, all that will matter is that the person was using "explosive devices".
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  #123  
Old 08-17-2013, 2:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.

Tanneite(r) Binary Targets DO NOT cause fires. If you are going to post about arrests and individual cases, you need to have all of the facts and post accordingly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are repeatedly making false claims with no evidence to back it up. Tannerite(r) brand targets are to ONLY be used as instructed and directed. It is only to be used as a shot indicator. There are laws that can be broken if you misuse the product, however, it the responsibility of the customer to read the directions, check to make sure it is ok to use the product in a particular area, and to use common sense in regard to safety. For proper use information visit www.tannerite.com.
I have massive respect for Tannerite. In a few of my out-of-state trips, I have had the opportunity to play with some of it as well as some competitors' products. With the Tannerite, I had some issues early on with reliability of ignition but quickly realized I wasn't properly packing the activated prills into the target vessels. One competitor's product I tried was a "low velocity" type that was advertised as being sensitive to 22 LR. It came with an anti-static bag in which to mix the powders (brings a certain worrisome implication) and my friend and I had a bit of a scare after loose powder from a grazed low-velocity target was stricken by a follow-up shot and ignited a small cardboard fire which was surprisingly difficult to stamp out completely. I definitely felt safer using the Tannerite due to its proven stability and wouldn't go near that particular competitors product again.

As far as legality, it seems pretty cut and dry. Within a few minutes of googling, I was able to find a few possibly relevant law citations:

Quote:
CAL. PEN. CODE § 12312
Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid permit to make such destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a felony, and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.

18720. Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid permit to make that destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a felony, and is punishable by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for two, three, or four years.
Two different sections of CPC state that constructive possession of explosives or destructive devices is felonious. Despite being lawn fertilizer and common metal flake, the bright orange cross-hair label and mixing instructions are plenty to prove intent. So then we have to ask whether or not Tannerite is a destructive device or explosive:

Quote:
CAL. PEN. CODE § 12301
(a)The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:

(1)Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

(2)Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

(3)Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(4)Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.

(5)Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.

(6)Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

(b)The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.
I have a feeling the primed targets could meet (2). Regardless of whether or not that's the case, they certainly do meet (6). My early issues with ignition reliably speak well for the safety of Tannerites's products, as it seems to be the case that the lid had to be level and tight and the powder slightly packed for proper reliable detonatinon. However, that implies that being constrained in a sealed container is a defining feature of the product, and the primed compound is undeniably chemically reactive. And then:

Quote:
California Health and Safety Code
12000. For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
any of the following:
(a) Dynamite, nitroglycerine, picric acid, lead azide, fulminate
of mercury, black powder, smokeless powder, propellant explosives,
detonating primers, blasting caps, or commercial boosters.
(b) Substances determined to be division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.6
explosives as classified by the United States Department of
Transportation.
(c) Nitro carbo nitrate substances (blasting agent) classified as
division 1.5 explosives by the United States Department of
Transportation.
(d) Any material designated as an explosive by the State Fire
Marshal. The designation shall be made pursuant to the classification
standards established by the United States Department of
Transportation. The State Fire Marshal shall adopt regulations in
accordance with the Government Code to establish procedures for the
classification and designation of explosive materials or explosive
devices that are not under the jurisdiction of the United States
Department of Transportation pursuant to provisions of Section 841 of
Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to Section
555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that define
explosives.
(e) Certain division 1.4 explosives as designated by the United
States Department of Transportation when listed in regulations
adopted by the State Fire Marshal.
(f) For the purposes of this part, "explosives" does not include
any destructive device, as defined in Section 16460 of the Penal
Code, nor does it include ammunition or small arms primers
manufactured for use in shotguns, rifles, and pistols.
Even without getting into the letter-designated sub-sections, Tannerite easily meets the main definition. Even if it didn't, I have seen Tannerite marketed as being less hazardous than but fundamentally similar to black powder. If it is a true analogue to black powder, then it meets the definition in (a). Even if not, then section (d) provides enough latitude that could be deemed an explosive by the state fire marshall. I don't think it would pass any of those tests, let alone all of them.

As I said, I have massive respect for Tannerite. To do what it does, reliably and safely, is an amazing achievement. It is a very fun and satisfying product. It is an example of good old American ingenuity. But unfortunately, I just can't buy into the claim that it is not illegal in California.

(and to those that would say this post is "helping the enemy" I would say that's ridiculous. The enemy in the case would be overzealous DA's. The cites above were assembled with 4-5 google queries. It's trivial. But more importantly, any harm it does to "us" by helping "them" is far outweighed by alerting more of "us" to the potential legal trappings of owning and using these products)

Have fun, shoot straight, and - as always - be safe.
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Last edited by Some Velvet-Fisted Brute; 08-17-2013 at 2:27 AM.. Reason: clean-up
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  #124  
Old 08-17-2013, 2:53 AM
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It seems like either this thread or Bill's other thread on the subject would make a good sticky. Lots of people are still unaware of the legal risks.
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  #125  
Old 08-17-2013, 5:31 PM
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"Tannerite Explosion sends Shrapnel into Shooters Forehead"

-Brandon
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  #126  
Old 08-17-2013, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
I think the issue in this instance has more to do with stupidity than it does with Tannerite.
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  #127  
Old 08-17-2013, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jaymz View Post
I think the issue in this instance has more to do with stupidity than it does with Tannerite.
Are you sure all 58 DAs agree with you?

-Brandon
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  #128  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.
Thats not true... We've talked before about WHY its considered a Destructive Device in California. If your company honestly believes that there has been a mistake, then financially back the individuals who have been charged with crimes for using it. Perhaps then some case law can be built up and in a couple years we'll be able to legally use it.

I love Tannerite!! I want to buy Tannerite! If it were legal in California (but it is not), I would buy a $1000 of it tomorrow. Really Really.
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  #129  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Are you sure all 58 DAs agree with you?

-Brandon
I'm pretty sure he is talking about the guy who sent shrapnel flying into his own forehead.
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  #130  
Old 08-18-2013, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.

Tanneite(r) Binary Targets DO NOT cause fires. If you are going to post about arrests and individual cases, you need to have all of the facts and post accordingly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are repeatedly making false claims with no evidence to back it up. Tannerite(r) brand targets are to ONLY be used as instructed and directed. It is only to be used as a shot indicator. There are laws that can be broken if you misuse the product, however, it the responsibility of the customer to read the directions, check to make sure it is ok to use the product in a particular area, and to use common sense in regard to safety. For proper use information visit www.tannerite.com.
This is from the RCSO:

"... was found with several exploding targets and was arrested on suspicion of possession of a destructive device and possession of materials with intent to make a destructive device, according to sheriff’s officials and jail records."

"Exploding targets are illegal to possess in California before they are mixed, as well as after the components are mixed together."

So much for your theory Dena. Is this arrest enough evidence for you to remove your illegal product from California before more innocent people get arrested? You should be ashamed of yourself.
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  #131  
Old 08-18-2013, 7:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.

Tanneite(r) Binary Targets DO NOT cause fires. If you are going to post about arrests and individual cases, you need to have all of the facts and post accordingly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are repeatedly making false claims with no evidence to back it up. Tannerite(r) brand targets are to ONLY be used as instructed and directed. It is only to be used as a shot indicator. There are laws that can be broken if you misuse the product, however, it the responsibility of the customer to read the directions, check to make sure it is ok to use the product in a particular area, and to use common sense in regard to safety. For proper use information visit www.tannerite.com.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaHoTex View Post
This is from the RCSO:

"... was found with several exploding targets and was arrested on suspicion of possession of a destructive device and possession of materials with intent to make a destructive device, according to sheriff’s officials and jail records."

"Exploding targets are illegal to possess in California before they are mixed, as well as after the components are mixed together."

So much for your theory Dena. Is this arrest enough evidence for you to remove your illegal product from California before more innocent people get arrested? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Riverside County Sheriff's Press Release

"Jeremy Ingram, 38 years old, of Menifee, was arrested and booked into Southwest Detention Center for possession of bomb making components (18720 PC), and possession of a destructive device (18710(a) PC), both charges are felonies."


.
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  #132  
Old 08-18-2013, 8:11 PM
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Hm, I thought the OP was arrested because a fire was actually started, here is a guy arrested and no fire was started.

We should ask the OP, did Tannerite start the fire?

Strange that you can buy it in the store and then get arrested as soon as you get outside - for possessing unmixed components. If this is true, why aren't the vendors getting arrested for possessing it?
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  #133  
Old 08-18-2013, 8:24 PM
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People keep saying gunshows and gun stores, implying that this stuff is only sold in mom and pop style stores or outlaw gunshow booths. You can buy it at Dick's Sporting Goods! WTF?!! How is it that a corporation like Dicks's is selling something that when, not only used as intended, but mere possession of it can land you in jail? This makes no sense.
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  #134  
Old 08-18-2013, 8:46 PM
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http://blog.pe.com/2013/08/18/lake-e...-deputies-say/

i would like to see the doj in on this.
if i start a petition asking the ca doj to make a ruling on tannerite.
would everyone help pass it along?

i have a few friends at some news stations to help get it out there.
even if they say its not legal. it will at least keep people out of jail.
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  #135  
Old 08-18-2013, 9:00 PM
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Almost every time I shoot on BLM there are guys using tannerite. They have no idea they are breaking the law as their mindset is that they bought it legally, thus it must be legal. How is it logical to allow the sale of a device, but by possessing or using said device it is a felony? Honestly, it is entrapment.
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  #136  
Old 08-18-2013, 9:57 PM
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DOJ BoF will not issue a determination.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelthetrojan View Post
http://blog.pe.com/2013/08/18/lake-e...-deputies-say/

i would like to see the doj in on this.
if i start a petition asking the ca doj to make a ruling on tannerite.
would everyone help pass it along?

i have a few friends at some news stations to help get it out there.
even if they say its not legal. it will at least keep people out of jail.
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  #137  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:41 PM
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I don't think it's a given OP should have known the legality of Tannerite's use here in CA. Not too long ago, I wouldn't have known and I don't consider myself particularly ill-informed. Buying it at a mainstream place like Bass Pros makes it's use falsely credible.

With that said, I think it's curious why 4 pages into a thread we still don't know how water vapor started a fire in the desert.
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  #138  
Old 08-19-2013, 7:18 AM
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Tannerite Brand Targets do not start fires. If a fire was started, he was not using Tannerite. People get our brand confused and think it is a chemical component or that all exploding targets are Tannerite. They are not. Tannerite is simply a brand of target--a brand that will not burn.
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  #139  
Old 08-19-2013, 7:22 AM
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Again, everyone, Tannerite is a Brand of target. Yes, Tannerite was the first and is the safest but it is simply a brand. There are many brands of exploding targets out there. We do not make any claims about the safety of other brands. Exploding target is a generic term--Tannerite is not.
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  #140  
Old 08-19-2013, 7:26 AM
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True, but that does not change the fact that people are being arrested for utilizing "Exploding Targets"

From RCSO in response to the latest arrest: “Exploding targets are illegal to possess in California before they are mixed, as well as after the components are mixed together.”

Note the term "Exploding Targets" in the RCSO statement.

ETA:
It is really bad when you can stop by Dicks Sporting Goods on your way to a camping trip, buy a fishing pole, a tent and a few exploding targets on your way to a fun family weekend of fishing and shooting and find out you walked out with a felony in a box.

While I would say the majority of those that visit CalGuns now know these types of targets are not legal for use in California, there are 50X as many shooters that do not even know of CalGuns. These people very likely do not know this stuff is illegal to use and will be the next person arrested for a felony while on their fun family weekend getaway.
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  #141  
Old 08-19-2013, 7:46 AM
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I'm obviously new to this forum and I'm replying wrong. Each time I try to reply to a comment it moves all of them to the end of the thread. I'm trying to respond to everyone but it's not working out so well. I am giving full disclosure here. I represent Tannerite® brand targets. I am posting only to answer questions and provide facts.

Here's a response that will hopefully cover most of everything.

One comment asked how a sporting good store could or would sell a destructive devise. Have you looked at the shelves? I see ammunition, crossbows, guns, knives, etc. Each of these when used the wrong way can be destructive and cause harm. Tannerite® brand exploding targets must be shot with a bullet from a high-speed rifle to detonate. You must purchase a gun and the ammunition to shoot Tannerite® exploding targets. We encourage everyone to check the laws in their areas before shooting Tannerite® exploding targets. There are some areas where you will break a noise ordinance law that will get you a citation. However, it should be noted that shooting a gun of any kind or playing music too loud will get you the same citation.

When discussing exploding targets, you should call them exploding targets (and then you’ll keep me from chiming in). Tannerite® is a BRAND. Tannerite® exploding targets do not cause fires; it can’t make a spark. Other exploding targets can and do cause a spark. Any exploding target if used incorrectly and not as directed can cause harm. Again, just because it is an exploding target, does NOT make it Tannerite®.

Thank you for using Tannerite® targets in a safe manner. They are only to be legally used as shot indicators. If you have any questions about the legality of the targets, look up the laws BEFORE you shoot them. We want everyone to enjoy Tannerite® but we want you to be safe and stay out of trouble.

As far as the legal representation, Mario, and Tannerite®’s support of it’s customers, here is a message from Dan Tanner:

I do have clients who I have paid their lawyer fees for and they were found not guilty of their charge. In fact no one has EVER been found guilty unless it was “Using during a special order in a place where shooting was prohibited, etc” which amounted to a $100.00 civil penalty. NO ONE HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF USING TANNERITE® AS PRESCRIBED.

Tannerite® is paying our expert legal team to provide support to Mario’s legal team. Even though Mario WAS NOT using Tannerite® brand targets. Our legal team has been in contact with Mario’s legal team as early as two weeks ago. We believe this is more than fair as Mario wasn’t using Tannerite® brand targets.
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  #142  
Old 08-19-2013, 8:01 AM
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I disclosed who I represent and why I am posting. If you don't want Tannerite's answers to your questions, then yes, ignore everything I write. I have no personal opinion here. I chimed in because there are a lot of people with questions and there are a lot of answers being written with no company representation offering answers. We are not answering questions to sell more product--this isn't a marketing scheme. We answering questions to help people stay out of trouble. We don't want anyone getting hurt or in trouble by using our product. We also want people to understand that Tannerite(r) is a brand and not a generic term for exploding targets.
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  #143  
Old 08-19-2013, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
One comment asked how a sporting good store could or would sell a destructive devise. Have you looked at the shelves? I see ammunition, crossbows, guns, knives, etc..
That's because ammunition, under 0.60 caliber, is excluded from the definition of a destructive device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
In fact no one has EVER been found guilty unless it was “Using during a special order in a place where shooting was prohibited, etc”..
With all the pending cases... Soon you may very well have to change that to:
"In fact no one has EVER been found guilty unless it was “Using during a special order in a place where shooting was prohibited, etc” or unless they were in California and following our advice about how legal it is everywhere."
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  #144  
Old 08-19-2013, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite Brand Targets do not start fires. If a fire was started, he was not using Tannerite. Tannerite is simply a brand of target--a brand that will not burn.
Tannerite (or whatever product was being used) may have had nothing to with the fire. But there was a fire, and the resulting investigation drew attention to the use of the targets, and the charges indicate that POSSESSION is a felony. Keep in mind that just normal target shooting can cause fires. Compression can also cause fires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
As far as the legal representation, Mario, and Tannerite®’s support of it’s customers, here is a message from Dan Tanner:
Dena I get that you are just working for Tannerite and you are not a lawyer. But when you are taking Dan's (or whoever's) word for it that these products are legal, then you are putting yourself and many customers at risk. At best this is not a black and white issue, at worst it is an illegal product in California.
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  #145  
Old 08-19-2013, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
I disclosed who I represent and why I am posting. If you don't want Tannerite's answers to your questions, then yes, ignore everything I write. I have no personal opinion here. I chimed in because there are a lot of people with questions and there are a lot of answers being written with no company representation offering answers. We are not answering questions to sell more product--this isn't a marketing scheme. We answering questions to help people stay out of trouble. We don't want anyone getting hurt or in trouble by using our product. We also want people to understand that Tannerite(r) is a brand and not a generic term for exploding targets.
Your participation is appreciated so no need to throw in cynical "ignore everything I write."

However, you have to acknowledge that people are being arrested and charged (not yet convicted) of using exploding targets. You will clearly make distinction between Tannerite the brand and exploding targets the concept and there is no reason not to believe you that Tannerite brand exploding targets were specifically designed to avoid fires, but people who are getting arrested are getting arrested on "explosive devices" statutes that do not exclude Tannerite and there seems to be very little distinction between brands at this time when it comes to prosecutions.

If the situation changes (let's hope it does) and either prosecutions stop, or Tannerite can differentiate itself in the eyes of CA prosecutors as the "non explosive" or "non fire starting" brand that is completely legal, we on this forum cannot in good conscience suggest that shooters in CA can use *any* brand of exploding targets.
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  #146  
Old 08-19-2013, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
As far as the legal representation, Mario, and Tannerite®’s support of it’s customers, here is a message from Dan Tanner:

I do have clients who I have paid their lawyer fees for and they were found not guilty of their charge. In fact no one has EVER been found guilty unless it was “Using during a special order in a place where shooting was prohibited, etc” which amounted to a $100.00 civil penalty. NO ONE HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF USING TANNERITE® AS PRESCRIBED.

Tannerite® is paying our expert legal team to provide support to Mario’s legal team. Even though Mario WAS NOT using Tannerite® brand targets. Our legal team has been in contact with Mario’s legal team as early as two weeks ago. We believe this is more than fair as Mario wasn’t using Tannerite® brand targets.
Yes or no: Will Dan Tanner commit to fund every CA crim defense of every person prosecuted for purchasing, selling, possessing, or "using Tannerite as prescribed?"

If yes, then I'll be in touch.

-Brandon
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  #147  
Old 08-20-2013, 3:24 PM
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Just to update everybody, I have accepted the plea deal offered by the DA's office.

Quote:
Plead guilty to felony violation of Penal Code 452C and 18 710; the count alleging violation of Penal Code 18 720 to be dismissed;
“Pay a large chunk” of restitution up front (Amy Zeta offered her opinion that it would be best for you to pay as much up front as possible because she believes that whatever amount you may need to pay in payments will be increased by approximately 15%);
Three years formal probation;
Serve 90 days in county jail but you can ask the Court to order that you be allowed to serve this time on house arrest but be allowed out to work with this being enforced by electronic monitoring (i.e. you will have to wear and pay for an ankle bracelet);
The DA will not oppose a request by you to transfer your probation supervision to another state;
Contrary to the DA’s prior position, you will not be required to register as an arsonist;
If you successfully comply with all terms of probation, pay the restitution in full and commit no new violations of law, the DA will not oppose your PC 17b motion for order reducing your two felony convictions to misdemeanors after three years on probation (i.e. the DA will be allowed to oppose a 17b motion if you also make a motion for early termination of probation); and
If you are able to transfer your probation supervision to another state, you are to still pay restitution through Riverside County Probation (I will need to inquire with Riverside County Probation to seek to confirm if and how that can be accomplished).
What does this mean to everybody else? That ALL exploding targets are clearly illegal and you will be convicted of a felony, period. There is no special exemption for Tannerite or any other one brand. Have you seen the latest?

No fire but still the same charges. The charge where they really get you is the 18720. This comes with a mandatory minimum state prison sentence:

Quote:
18720. Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any
combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any
destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid
permit to make that destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a
felony, and is punishable by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h)
of Section 1170 for two, three, or four years.
As far as Tannerite providing legal defense, not going to happen. You will receive immaterial paper work from John Brooks, an out of state attorney that clearly does not know California law. Tanner has known the importance of this case for a while and decided to do nothing significant about it so the end result is clear. You will be arrested, charged, and convicted of a felony for using Tannerite, or any other brand of binary explosives, in California. California now has clear case law against these products!

So the next time your at a gun show, gun store, or sporting good store and see any type of binary explosive, speak with the manager and let then know that they are turning law-abiding citizens into felons. The least we can do is inform the public and keep anybody else from going down the same route I have had to go. By the time this is all said and done I will have spent over $150,000. Please don't put yourself or your families through the same turmoil I've had to. Semper Fi.
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  #148  
Old 08-20-2013, 4:48 PM
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What if you use it in your garage.......


[ducking]
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  #149  
Old 08-20-2013, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobGR View Post
Almost every time I shoot on BLM there are guys using tannerite. They have no idea they are breaking the law as their mindset is that they bought it legally, thus it must be legal. How is it logical to allow the sale of a device, but by possessing or using said device it is a felony? Honestly, it is entrapment.
I've bought more than 1 AR parts kit in California. You get to walk out of the store with it. Install everything as is and get caught with it, you're in big trouble. No one is necessarily going to tell you that you need to buy a bullet button. It's not really entrapment. In this case though, if they consider the actual product itself (unmixed or mixed), an illegal explosive, then stores wouldn't/couldn't be selling it without breaking the law themselves. It's not like they would be immune selling it.

I'm thinking this is one of those cases that they just want to get gun owners in trouble and make examples. Tannerite is probably legal in CA when used properly. Whether or not something is legal or not doesn't matter to the douchebag DAs here. If they make examples out of these people that were arrested, even if they are found not guilty, they have bled them dry defending themselves (monetarily). That's their main goal and nothing else.
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  #150  
Old 08-20-2013, 5:35 PM
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Good to know about the targets well worth $25 I donated
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  #151  
Old 08-20-2013, 10:20 PM
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Can't believe I'm just finding out about this now! I've used exploding targets in the past an like everyone else simply assumed they were legal. People that say exploding targets are stupid should lighten up, who doesn't love a good explosion. I mean you can feel the shockwave and the boom is just awesome. Do said people think fireworks are stupid?

Like I said, glad I found this thread. I'll avoid exploding targets in the future. Felonies are nothing to mess with. I couldn't afford any lawyer so I guess I'd have a public defender and just end up in jail.

Also, there's more to the story. There always is. I'm sure of it. The OP has been quiet about that.

Last edited by jasonnorcal; 08-20-2013 at 10:23 PM..
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  #152  
Old 08-20-2013, 10:39 PM
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Not an explosive

Blowing up a car with 42lbs of tannerite

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1374223126

That is how the average citizen who sits on a jury would view it.
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  #153  
Old 08-21-2013, 1:06 AM
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time for a little jury nullification
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  #154  
Old 08-21-2013, 1:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengal View Post
Just to update everybody, I have accepted the plea deal offered by the DA's office.



What does this mean to everybody else? That ALL exploding targets are clearly illegal and you will be convicted of a felony, period. There is no special exemption for Tannerite or any other one brand. Have you seen the latest?



No fire but still the same charges. The charge where they really get you is the 18720. This comes with a mandatory minimum state prison sentence:



As far as Tannerite providing legal defense, not going to happen. You will receive immaterial paper work from John Brooks, an out of state attorney that clearly does not know California law. Tanner has known the importance of this case for a while and decided to do nothing significant about it so the end result is clear. You will be arrested, charged, and convicted of a felony for using Tannerite, or any other brand of binary explosives, in California. California now has clear case law against these products!

So the next time your at a gun show, gun store, or sporting good store and see any type of binary explosive, speak with the manager and let then know that they are turning law-abiding citizens into felons. The least we can do is inform the public and keep anybody else from going down the same route I have had to go. By the time this is all said and done I will have spent over $150,000. Please don't put yourself or your families through the same turmoil I've had to. Semper Fi.
I understand the self-preservation aspect of taking a plea deal, but what did you feel your chances were for jury nullification?

If you convinced a single jury member that you should not go to prison for using something sold by major corporate chains, you would have most likely never heard from the DA again.
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  #155  
Old 08-21-2013, 1:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tannerite(r) Binary Rifle Targets are legal in California. Why don't you post the California law on this forum and back up your claim.
You can start with California Penal Codes 18715 & 18720

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=18710-18780

Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Penal Code
18715. (a) Every person who recklessly or maliciously has in
possession any destructive device or any explosive in any of the
following places is guilty of a felony:
(1) On a public street or highway.
(2) In or near any theater, hall, school, college, church, hotel,
or other public building.
(3) In or near any private habitation.
(4) In, on, or near any aircraft, railway passenger train, car,
cable road, cable car, or vessel engaged in carrying passengers for
hire.
(5) In, on, or near any other public place ordinarily passed by
human beings.
(b) An offense under subdivision (a) is punishable by imprisonment
pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for a period of two,
four, or six years.


18720. Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any
combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any
destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid
permit to make that destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a
felony, and is punishable by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h)
of Section 1170 for two, three, or four years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena Woerner View Post
Tanneite(r) Binary Targets DO NOT cause fires. If you are going to post about arrests and individual cases, you need to have all of the facts and post accordingly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are repeatedly making false claims with no evidence to back it up. Tannerite(r) brand targets are to ONLY be used as instructed and directed. It is only to be used as a shot indicator. There are laws that can be broken if you misuse the product, however, it the responsibility of the customer to read the directions, check to make sure it is ok to use the product in a particular area, and to use common sense in regard to safety. For proper use information visit www.tannerite.com.
Interesting how in just one post you claim they are legal here, warn we need to on our own check if they are legal here, chastise people for supposedly not having all the facts, and simultaneously providing absolutely zero facts of your own about any individual cases nor do you provide any evidence what so ever to backup your claim of legality.
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  #156  
Old 08-21-2013, 4:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDD View Post
Not an explosive

Blowing up a car with 42lbs of tannerite

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1374223126

That is how the average citizen who sits on a jury would view it.
I think this is conclusive.
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  #157  
Old 08-21-2013, 2:30 PM
Dena Woerner Dena Woerner is offline
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Just the facts.

Dan’s lawyers are working closely this person charged was using actually Tannerite® targets instead of an infringing brand, and using them as prescribed.” This person charged did not start any fires with targets. They called 911 when they saw smoke several mountain ranges over and waited. After being told that they could leave and were not in violation for shooting targets, they were held and the bomb squad was called. He was arrested, but not charged. Yes, Tannerite® will represent anyone who is wrongfully charged with using Tannerite® rifle targets.

Please note that per the USFS, ANY exploding target is banned during fire season on forest lands. Furthermore, Oregon/Washington/Idaho just banned exploding targets on any forest land ANY TIME OF YEAR, rain or snow. Tannerite® is challenging this as well, since the ruling was specifically aimed at patent infringing incendiary targets that can start fires, often marketed under the name “Tannerite”. Tannerite® is lumped into this ban because the field agents can’t tell the difference between one target or another.

Tannerite® has also filed suit against Riverside County in California for operating outside of law.

Only two prior cases this year where a person was charged with using Tannerite® Targets and the felony charges were dismissed with our legal help: 


Eric Lavangie
Dog Island Builders
Belfast, ME
04915

He shot 20 pounds of bulk in his back yard for his wife’s birthday for celebration purposes. He was charged with multiple felonies including bomb manufacturing/explosive statutes. Maine has almost identical statutes as California.

Dust settles: All felonies dropped. Tannerite® paid the tab, even though it wasn’t being used as a shot indicator….the charges were ridiculous enough to justify a fight.

Caleb Davis


Shreveport, LA.
Son brought home a 1 pound target. He shot it on the family ranch and neighbors complained. He was charged with multiple felonies including bomb making/explosives. LA has almost identical statutes as California.
Dust settles: All charges dropped. He pled to disturbing the peace in exchange for zero fine or court costs. Caleb is filing civil suit against the department for false arrest. Tannerite® paid the tab and provided counsel. Caleb was using it as prescribed (shot –indicator/ rifle target)

Anyone who uses our targets in the prescribed manner gets free legal help if they have a problem with a false charge. If someone is blowing up cars and bragging about it, throwing metal around, posting reckless use of our product on YouTube, or using the product as anything other than a shot indicator…FORGET IT. That’s not what Tannerite® was ever intended for.
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  #158  
Old 08-21-2013, 2:36 PM
Dena Woerner Dena Woerner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
You can start with California Penal Codes 18715 & 18720

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=18710-18780





Interesting how in just one post you claim they are legal here, warn we need to on our own check if they are legal here, chastise people for supposedly not having all the facts, and simultaneously providing absolutely zero facts of your own about any individual cases nor do you provide any evidence what so ever to backup your claim of legality.
Read the law: Anyone who has malicious or reckless INTENT. Used as instructed and as a shot indicator, should not be reckless or malicious. Tannerite(r) is considered a legal commodity.

Tannerite® has filed suit against Riverside County in California for operating outside of law.
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Old 08-21-2013, 2:48 PM
Dena Woerner Dena Woerner is offline
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No theories here. Just the facts.

Dan’s lawyers are working closely this person charged was using actually Tannerite® targets instead of an infringing brand, and using them as prescribed.” This person charged did not start any fires with targets. They called 911 when they saw smoke several mountain ranges over and waited. After being told that they could leave and were not in violation for shooting targets, they were held and the bomb squad was called. He was arrested, but not charged. Yes, Tannerite® will represent anyone who is wrongfully charged with using Tannerite® rifle targets.

Please note that per the USFS, ANY exploding target is banned during fire season on forest lands. Furthermore, Oregon/Washington/Idaho just banned exploding targets on any forest land ANY TIME OF YEAR, rain or snow. Tannerite® is challenging this as well, since the ruling was specifically aimed at patent infringing incendiary targets that can start fires, often marketed under the name “Tannerite”. Tannerite® is lumped into this ban because the field agents can’t tell the difference between one target or another.

Tannerite® has also filed suit against Riverside County in California for operating outside of law.

Only two prior cases this year where a person was charged with using Tannerite® Targets and the felony charges were dismissed with our legal help: 


Eric Lavangie
Dog Island Builders
Belfast, ME
04915

He shot 20 pounds of bulk in his back yard for his wife’s birthday for celebration purposes. He was charged with multiple felonies including bomb manufacturing/explosive statutes. Maine has almost identical statutes as California.

Dust settles: All felonies dropped. Tannerite® paid the tab, even though it wasn’t being used as a shot indicator….the charges were ridiculous enough to justify a fight.

Caleb Davis


Shreveport, LA.
Son brought home a 1 pound target. He shot it on the family ranch and neighbors complained. He was charged with multiple felonies including bomb making/explosives. LA has almost identical statutes as California.
Dust settles: All charges dropped. He pled to disturbing the peace in exchange for zero fine or court costs. Caleb is filing civil suit against the department for false arrest. Tannerite® paid the tab and provided counsel. Caleb was using it as prescribed (shot –indicator/ rifle target)

Anyone who uses our targets in the prescribed manner gets free legal help if they have a problem with a false charge. If someone is blowing up cars and bragging about it, throwing metal around, posting reckless use of our product on YouTube, or using the product as anything other than a shot indicator…FORGET IT. That’s not what Tannerite® was ever intended for.
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Old 08-21-2013, 2:48 PM
Dena Woerner Dena Woerner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
You can start with California Penal Codes 18715 & 18720

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=18710-18780





Interesting how in just one post you claim they are legal here, warn we need to on our own check if they are legal here, chastise people for supposedly not having all the facts, and simultaneously providing absolutely zero facts of your own about any individual cases nor do you provide any evidence what so ever to backup your claim of legality.
Read the law: Anyone who has malicious or reckless INTENT. Used as instructed and as a shot indicator, should not be reckless or malicious. Tannerite(r) is considered a legal commodity.

Tannerite® has filed suit against Riverside County in California for operating outside of law.
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