Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:26 PM
Barryt Barryt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 277
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default I called the DOD about the LEOSA Act today

Background Info: I am a military policman. The amended LEOSA Act covers military police officers. The DOD is currently working out the guidelines for us to apply and get issued badge and credentials for off duty conceal and carry.

I called the DOJ to see if Califonria had a proccess set up for Federal Officers to get their conceal and carry credentials in the state.

I was told by the agent on the phone that "California does not recognize the LEOSA Act" I was said "sir, its federal law" Then asked if a local cop pulled over an off duty atf agent and he was conceal and carrying, would he be arrested since Califonria doesn't recognize the LEOSA Act. The DOJ agent said "technically yes, but most officers wouldn't arrest another LEO of conceal and carrying"......................................... ........................................... I was also told that when I do get my federal DOD badge and credentials that I should still get a California civilian CCW permit as well.

WTF really....
1) They can't just dismiss a federal law
2) All these years cops haven't just been turning a blind eye to illegal conceal and carry just because they are LEOS. Its the law.
3) WTF....
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:29 PM
jeffrice6's Avatar
jeffrice6 jeffrice6 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 4,297
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

Welcome to the masses~
__________________
WTB: S&W 617 4" 10 shot Pre-Lock
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:32 PM
shakes88's Avatar
shakes88 shakes88 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Solano County
Posts: 1,129
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I plan on carrying if/when I get my credentials... there's most likely going to be further hoops to jump through, such as qualifications and what not...
__________________
Boycott GFOS in Vacaville

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:32 PM
jeg0777's Avatar
jeg0777 jeg0777 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Hunter Liggett
Posts: 177
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I am an MP in CA as well and I am following the developments of this very closely. Where I work we have numerous MP's come through for schools that are also Civilan LEO's so we discuss it quite often. It also baffles me how CA can blatently defy Federal Law. I suspect that whoever you talked to at the DOJ was talking out of his fourth point of contact in order to prevent people in this state from exercising their rights.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:39 PM
kauaibuilt's Avatar
kauaibuilt kauaibuilt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,254
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

I know a ton of Fed LEOs that carry. Theyve had different Sheriffs agencies as well as state patrol recognize their LEOSA status - this even includes PPT's between the CA LEO and Fed LEO. Whoever you talked to is an idiot and most likely an administrative desk jockey.

I dont specifically know about the MP issue though.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:40 PM
Barryt Barryt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 277
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes88 View Post
I plan on carrying if/when I get my credentials... there's most likely going to be further hoops to jump through, such as qualifications and what not...
The LEOSA act just says you have to be qualified in a handgun.I believe. for us in the Air Force it would be our AF Form 522 stating that we are qualified on the M9. I also teach conceal and carry for the Air Force using the M9 or M11.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:45 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Not unusual.New Jersey will arrest you at the airport if you're legally traveling under the Federal FOPA.

The New York State attorney IIRC has official letterhead which says the FOPA isnt applicable to the state,and that it must be asserted as an affirmative defense to an illegal firearm arrest in court.

As I've said before ,the Feds cannot compel a state to recognize the 2nd Amendment unless there's teeth behind the law.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:52 PM
shakes88's Avatar
shakes88 shakes88 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Solano County
Posts: 1,129
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
for us in the Air Force
I'm guessing by this statement that this information would be a decent read if you haven't seen it already.
__________________
Boycott GFOS in Vacaville

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:55 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 10,403
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Federal law still applies, but states might choose to be difficult.

This is what Civil Rights division of DOJ should prosecute and prevent, but they are mostly involved with discrimination based on "prohibited categories" of which "gun ownership", unfortunately, isn't one (yet).
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:58 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,446
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
WTF really....
1) They can't just dismiss a federal law
2) All these years cops haven't just been turning a blind eye to illegal conceal and carry just because they are LEOS. Its the law.
3) WTF....
It's called the 10th ammendment.

Under which enumerated power is the Federal Gov't claiming the authority to give LEOs from one state the right to carry off duty in another state contrary to that state's laws?

If you think that should be legal, then out of state CCWs should be honored nationwide as well.
__________________
"Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

Quote for the day:
Quote:
"..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-30-2013, 2:58 PM
Decoligny's Avatar
Decoligny Decoligny is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle, OK
Posts: 10,618
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
Background Info: I am a military policman. The amended LEOSA Act covers military police officers. The DOD is currently working out the guidelines for us to apply and get issued badge and credentials for off duty conceal and carry.

I called the DOJ to see if Califonria had a proccess set up for Federal Officers to get their conceal and carry credentials in the state.

I was told by the agent on the phone that "California does not recognize the LEOSA Act" I was said "sir, its federal law" Then asked if a local cop pulled over an off duty atf agent and he was conceal and carrying, would he be arrested since Califonria doesn't recognize the LEOSA Act. The DOJ agent said "technically yes, but most officers wouldn't arrest another LEO of conceal and carrying"......................................... ........................................... I was also told that when I do get my federal DOD badge and credentials that I should still get a California civilian CCW permit as well.

WTF really....
1) They can't just dismiss a federal law
2) All these years cops haven't just been turning a blind eye to illegal conceal and carry just because they are LEOS. Its the law.
3) WTF....
Well, look at New York and how they treat the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) which is Federal Law allowing an out of state resident to transport their legally owned firearms from somewhere they can legally possess them to somewhere else they can legally possess them even if the state they are going through has licensing requirments.

New York totally ignores FOPA and will arrest, sieze property, and prosecute any out of state resident in NY with a gun.
__________________

If you haven't seen it with your own eyes,
or heard it with your own ears,
don't make it up with your small mind,
or spread it with your big mouth.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-30-2013, 3:02 PM
Barryt Barryt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 277
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes88 View Post
I'm guessing by this statement that this information would be a decent read if you haven't seen it already.
Sounds like they are getting it together. Hope to see something soon.

-Barry
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-30-2013, 3:03 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,446
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Not unusual.New Jersey will arrest you at the airport if you're legally traveling under the Federal FOPA.

The New York State attorney IIRC has official letterhead which says the FOPA isnt applicable to the state,and that it must be asserted as an affirmative defense to an illegal firearm arrest in court.

As I've said before ,the Feds cannot compel a state to recognize the 2nd Amendment unless there's teeth behind the law.
I would contend that an agent of the Gov't who is carrying a firearm as part of their employment, or is doing so off duty as a privilege of their employment is not actually exercising their 2A rights, nor does the 2A protect that activity.

They are exercising a conditional privilege employment, which may be subject to all manner of legal and agency policy, regulation, discretion. Something allowed under federal or state law does not make it a right, it can be and quite commonly may be prohibited by agency policy.
__________________
"Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

Quote for the day:
Quote:
"..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-30-2013, 3:11 PM
NoJoke's Avatar
NoJoke NoJoke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,539
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Stop your whining.....at least YOU can get a LTC!

You want to really feel treated like an abused dog? Try imagining being expected to survive completely defenseless while reading the 2a aloud to yourself.
__________________

NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-30-2013, 3:26 PM
Barryt Barryt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 277
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoke View Post
Stop your whining.....at least YOU can get a LTC!

You want to really feel treated like an abused dog? Try imagining being expected to survive completely defenseless while reading the 2a aloud to yourself.
I have been a CA a resident forever. I know about the second ammendment issues here. I also am going the civilian route for my CCW.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-30-2013, 4:52 PM
1911_sfca's Avatar
1911_sfca 1911_sfca is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,205
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

California doesn't have to "recognize" LEOSA.. LEOSA prohibits the state from making any law that would prohibit a qualified law enforcement officer from carrying concealed. So as long as you have your federal credentials that show you are a LEO and you are authorized to carry while on duty, and have met the qualification standards, you are GTG. You won't be exempt from the handgun roster, nor the 10-magazine limit for purchases (unless you received your magazine from your employing agency), however.

Retired is a different story and more complex, but since that doesn't apply here let's not get into it.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-30-2013, 5:32 PM
gblacksmith gblacksmith is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 149
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_sfca View Post
California doesn't have to "recognize" LEOSA.. LEOSA prohibits the state from making any law that would prohibit a qualified law enforcement officer from carrying concealed. So as long as you have your federal credentials that show you are a LEO and you are authorized to carry while on duty, and have met the qualification standards, you are GTG. You won't be exempt from the handgun roster, nor the 10-magazine limit for purchases (unless you received your magazine from your employing agency), however.

Retired is a different story and more complex, but since that doesn't apply here let's not get into it.
As a retired Fed LEO, you may CCW if you are not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm if:

You have an aggregate 10 yrs LEO service in an agency/program that was tasked with enforcing criminal statutes and had powers of arrest. There are qualifications requirements that vary agency to agency, but the basic criterion is 10 or more years service with honorable separation.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-30-2013, 5:37 PM
obiwan obiwan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Spanish Springs, NV
Posts: 676
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

I just read today that AG Harris has ruled fed LEO's can no longer purchase off roster hand guns in Ca either...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-30-2013, 7:44 PM
wjc's Avatar
wjc wjc is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunnyvale, Ca
Posts: 10,763
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Welcome to "Kalifornia, The Democratic People's Republic of", OP!

Stupid legislators.

Stupid laws.
__________________


NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Golden Eagle
SAF Life Member
CGN Contributor
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-30-2013, 7:46 PM
curtisfong's Avatar
curtisfong curtisfong is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,866
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
I just read today that AG Harris has ruled fed LEO's can no longer purchase off roster hand guns in Ca either...
http://www.weapon-blog.com/2013/07/c...dguns-for-you/
__________________
The Rifle on the Wall

"“[S]cientific proof” of both gun-rights and gun-control theories “is very hard to get”; therefore, requiring “some substantial scientific proof to show that a [firearm] law will indeed substantially reduce crime and injury” is tantamount to applying strict scrutiny to, and almost certainly will lead to invalidation of, the law." - Kamela Harris

Lawyers and their Stockholm Syndrome

Last edited by curtisfong; 07-30-2013 at 7:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-30-2013, 7:55 PM
drew3630 drew3630 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Solano County
Posts: 343
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
Background Info: I am a military policman. The amended LEOSA Act covers military police officers. The DOD is currently working out the guidelines for us to apply and get issued badge and credentials for off duty conceal and carry.

I called the DOJ to see if Califonria had a proccess set up for Federal Officers to get their conceal and carry credentials in the state.

I was told by the agent on the phone that "California does not recognize the LEOSA Act" I was said "sir, its federal law" Then asked if a local cop pulled over an off duty atf agent and he was conceal and carrying, would he be arrested since Califonria doesn't recognize the LEOSA Act. The DOJ agent said "technically yes, but most officers wouldn't arrest another LEO of conceal and carrying"......................................... ........................................... I was also told that when I do get my federal DOD badge and credentials that I should still get a California civilian CCW permit as well.

WTF really....
1) They can't just dismiss a federal law
2) All these years cops haven't just been turning a blind eye to illegal conceal and carry just because they are LEOS. Its the law.
3) WTF....

This is the reason LEOSA was passed - to prevent states or cities like New York or Chicago from restricting LEOs from other states from carrying. Prior to the passage of LEOSA, many states prohibited officer from carrying off-duty.
I could go on and on about this. PM me if interested in learning more.

This DOJ agent you talked to needs to read up on the law.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-30-2013, 8:30 PM
marinelar marinelar is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 103
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
Background Info: I am a military policman. The amended LEOSA Act covers military police officers. The DOD is currently working out the guidelines for us to apply and get issued badge and credentials for off duty conceal and carry.

I called the DOJ to see if Califonria had a proccess set up for Federal Officers to get their conceal and carry credentials in the state.

I was told by the agent on the phone that "California does not recognize the LEOSA Act" I was said "sir, its federal law" Then asked if a local cop pulled over an off duty atf agent and he was conceal and carrying, would he be arrested since Califonria doesn't recognize the LEOSA Act. The DOJ agent said "technically yes, but most officers wouldn't arrest another LEO of conceal and carrying"......................................... ........................................... I was also told that when I do get my federal DOD badge and credentials that I should still get a California civilian CCW permit as well.

WTF really....
1) They can't just dismiss a federal law
2) All these years cops haven't just been turning a blind eye to illegal conceal and carry just because they are LEOS. Its the law.
3) WTF....

Taken from the DOJ website...http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/leosiss.pdf

He doesn't know what hes talking about.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-30-2013, 9:30 PM
Barryt Barryt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 277
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

The second agent I talked to said it was fine. They need to hire new people.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-30-2013, 10:27 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 34,188
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barryt View Post
The second agent I talked to said it was fine. They need to hire new people.
Generally speaking, the folks you get on the phones at DOJ are NOT lawyers, and there seems to be an issue training those people to be more conservative and less independent when giving answers. ("I don't know, but I'll pass the question on to someone who does; how may I get back to you?" would be a good sentence to learn.)

That is to say, it's sadly a moment for mild celebration when one gets a correct answer on anything the least bit complicated.

The actual lawyers are just fine, if suffering from poor leadership at the elected-level.
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:46 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.