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#1
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Gunrunners in Merced, said they will not do another PPT for us,
I recently did a PPT at Gunrunners in Merced, it went OK but man they really don't like doing PPT's, she was telling us, she didn't want to offend us, but to her, it's not worth her license to do them and she only gets $10 to put her license on the line, I told her I understood it was a hassle for not much money, but as citizens we have to do a PPT to keep it legal,
During our conversations I had mentioned to her that there was a Fresno dealer who almost refused to do one for me, and I heard from some one else that they did refuse to do one, but I cant confirm that, she was livid, she said I should have reported them to the Ca DOJ, I said yes but they did do mine, so for me there was nothing to report, if they did refuse mine, that would have been different, she said it's dealers like that, that make her do PPT's for people who she would not normally have to do them for. Well I left and when I got home I got the following email from the other member who I transfer my shot gun to saying that gunrunners had asked him several questions and had determined our transaction was not a PPT and it should have been $100, and they would not do another one for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's his email She asked how we came into contact if we didn't already know each other. I told her we both frequent an online gun forum that allows the posting of "for sale" items and you listed the shotgun and I wanted it. She said that is wasn't a PPT and that it was an online transaction and she should have charged me $100, not $10 and to tell you that she wouldn't do that again. I didn't have to pay more than what I already paid. I don't know why she considered it an online transaction. It is no different than an ad in the classifieds of a newspaper. I'd consider an online transaction as:I bought from a dealer or individual and had it shipped to her in which she would need to either fax or mail her FFL first. Then she'd take delivery and I'd do the proper paperwork. I don't understand her thought process If I would have purchased a firearm off GunsAmerica and contacted her to provide her FFl to the seller, and have her receive the gun, then yes, it's not a PPT and she could charge me what ever she wants, but in this case, what is the difference between cal guns on line classifieds, or if he would have viewed it on line in the Fresno Bees classifieds? no transaction had taken place over the internet, only an agreement to meet and if we were both happy with the deal, we would then go into Gunrunners and do a PPT, the shot gun was not purchased online. Last edited by brianm767; 02-25-2008 at 12:30 PM.. |
#3
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Buying a gun from 10% and having the FFLs faxed, etc would be an FFL transfer. Buying from a private citizen even though you met online is a PPT. The lady is just mad cause she has to do a little paperwork and can only charge 10. Go elsewhere next time.
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#4
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Something to remember, everyone you do business with has been your friend since preschool.
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Owner of Patriot Apparel - Decals, Vintage Signs, Apparel and More! Ebay Store Link Etsy Store Link |
#5
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Its easy to figure out what a PPT is.
If the current owner is present in the shop with the gun. If the buyer is present in the shop at the same time. THAT is a PPT and is only $10; anything else is not. If the dealer has to accept a shipment or collect monies from the buyer that is another story.
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#6
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WOW. As long as both parties are at the dealer at the same time it is a PPT. In teh "old days" before we had to go through a dealer for a transfer, the federal law was that the person receiving the firearm must be "known" to you. According to the then ATF, you were susposed to know the person you were selling/transfering the firearm too. You were susposed to know that they were not a restricted person. You could not just sell a firearm to anybody and hand them the gun. This was the law but it was not enforced that way at all. Even today, in states that do not require a FFL registration like CA, the transfer must be done to a person known to you. It really isn't legal to take a gun to a gun show and just sell it to someone you have never met. But in CA this does not matter since all person to person transfers must be done through a dealer. Such is a PPT.
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"Gun control is not about guns, it is about control" Mike's Custom Firearms 661-834-7836 http://mikescustomfirearms.com/ |
#7
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Um, transactions run as PPTs do not have to be simultaneous face to face... (1) consignment sales, paperwork for seller's done already/different time than when the buyer's there. (2) Also, PPTs can be run across CA between two residents/two FFLs as a 'gun show transaction': the first CA FFL gets the gun from the seller and manually captures the ID info and sends the gun to the 2nd CA FFL, where the buyer completes the PPT paperwork. There is no requirement for PPT transactions for parties to know each other. The whole goal of the PPT process is, in fact, to allow an outlet for lawful gun sale and sanction a structured environment so such sales are not forced underground/undocumented.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#8
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#10
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Yes, a Gun Show Transaction is different so the PPT fee does not apply. But, a consignment is the same as a PPT and the dealer can charge a consignment fee but only to the seller. Also, a PPT can be a firearm transfered from another dealer in a different area of CA as long as the DROS 2nd party section is filled out and a copy of the CA ID is with the DROS FORM and it is signed by the seller. In this case teh dealer may charge a fee to accept the firearm but can still only charge $10 to the buyer for the PPT.
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"Gun control is not about guns, it is about control" Mike's Custom Firearms 661-834-7836 http://mikescustomfirearms.com/ |
#11
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Yah I know she was just pissed because she really didn't want to do a PPT, even when another guy in the store asked , Can I help you? he wasn't aware the other lady was helping us, I said yah we need to do a PPT, he started laughing and said, great my favorite thing to do,
The lady was also telling the buyer to bring proof of residency with him to pick up the gun, I said, excuse me, inst that for hand guns only? then she said oh yah your right, I keep thinking it's a hand gun. She was also mentioning dealers who were doing transfers of OLL's she said I don't care who you are, that is out right illegal, I said well if it has a non detachable Mag, then it's not illegal as per the current laws , she said well that where it gets unclear. It's too bad, I really like this store, and the lady in question, she's been very helpful to me in the past and I would like to do business with them in the future, not just PPT, but buying more firearms through her, but at this point, I really don't feel welcomed in her store at all. |
#12
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#13
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Sure sounds like there was a misunderstanding in the conversation between the lady and the guy you bought the gun from. Did he bother to mention that is was a California forum and not an auction site?
Why not call her back and clear it up and then post the result? |
#14
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But I don't think it would matter? no transaction took place on line, we were both there face to face, even if I found a gun on an online auction, but I met the seller in person , and all money and the transfer was done in a local gun shop, wouldn't it still be considered a FTF PPT, IMOP it doesn't matter how or where you come across the gun for sale, it matters how the money and firearm are transfered, to me it's simple, if two people meet in person at a FFL, it's a FTF PPT , and as mentioned earlier, we both don't even have to be there at the same time. I will call and talk to the lady, but I wanted to wait till the buyer picked up his shot gun, I Dont want to cause any potential problems for him by pissing her off even more before he has to go back in her shop. But I don't think there's any misunderstanding, other than she does not understand what an online transaction is, or she does and she's just trying to keep us out of there for any future PPT's, Also I emailed the Ca DOJ and asked if our situation would be considered an online transaction, ( I know it's not) and I would like to have their response in hand before I talk to her, so if she still is convinced it was not legit, I can then show her the DOJ's response. Last edited by brianm767; 12-27-2007 at 1:56 PM.. |
#15
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Second sentence: Not correct either. If the transfer is legal in your state of residence AND you are in your state at the time of transfer, no federal law prohibits the sale. SOME states may prohibit private sales, MANY do not. I can give you first-hand info having done more than a few gunshow purchases and sales in both TX and ID. Last sentence: Any long gun at least 50 years old can be PPT'd in CA WITHOUT a licensee being involved. -hanko |
#16
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Again, you missunderstand. A dealer has to have proof of who he receives a firearm from whether it is a CCR or whatever. Federally a FFL is required to have proof of who we aquire a firearm from. If someone in another state says they are Joe E. Blow and at 1313 Mockingbird Ln. then I better have some sort of proof that that is who i received the firearm from. As for other states PPTs the person giving and receiving must be known to each other. Because of all the different state laws the Federal law now states that "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his state, if he DOES NOT KNOW or HAVE REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law". Also " A person may only aguire a firearm within the person's own State, except that he or she maypurchase or otherwise aquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided that the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of the sale and the State where the purchaser resides".
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"Gun control is not about guns, it is about control" Mike's Custom Firearms 661-834-7836 http://mikescustomfirearms.com/ Last edited by Mike's Custom; 12-27-2007 at 3:08 PM.. |
#17
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In your scenario one is required to either sell it to someone he already knows, or to a gun store.
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#18
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#19
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I didn't use her or the shops name, and I'm sure she's going to be majorly PO'd when I talk to her, and tell her I believe she is wrong , thats why I want to wait till the buyer picks up his gun.
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#20
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Really... To hell with gunrunners. The service sucks, high prices and bad attitudes. In their store, if you aint' a cop, you aint' sh.. well, yah kno.
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Precision Rifle Series. Unleashing the 6mmGT. |
#21
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Thanks -hanko |
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#23
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Frank One rifle, one planet, Holland's 375 Life Member NRA, CRPA and SAF |
#24
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You're catching that too Makes me wonder what's up with all these FFL's.............
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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.... I am not a number! I am a free man ~Molôn Labé!!~ 1.)All humanity would be better off if Stoooopid hurt. 2.)Why is it that if guns are sooooo unsafe that you're 9 times more likely to die at the hands of your doctor? 3.)Remember...Buy it cheap & stack it deep |
#25
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That is understandable as I get paid $85 on a 1 hour minium. Sucks for them but the law that requires them to do it also prohibits private gun sales. That alone turns people off to buying a private gun and they just go into the friendly local gun store instead.
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#26
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I remember selling a pistol I had around 1988 or so and doing the transfer at a local police station. It didn't cost anything that I recall. We both showed up, I gave the pistol to the cop, he went into another room with the weapon and when he came back out a few minutes later knew my name (presumeably from running the serial number of the pistol, we did a litle paperwork and went on our merry way....no waiting period hold or anything from what I recall.
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#27
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I have no quams about $10 being fair for the moment. Unless/until the FFL's as a WHOLE step up (in much the same way Wes did early on with the OLL) and say the law is absurd as it is....then they get what put forth into changing it (and that'd be nothing). I HATE paying the fees as I was/am a child of a different era where the PPT route was NON-existant & cash & carry ruled the day. I hate to sound sooooooo blasay about it; but this law SUCKS...and while it sucketh...they (the FFL) will have to bear the burden with the rest of us non-enlightend, non-annointed-with-BATF-holywater&DOJ-blessing, peons. At this moment I cant even believe I'm willing to give an inch on anti-gun matters...but then again I'd be up for a WHOLE re-vamp of the system where a NICS instant check and a 10 day wait FOR THE FIRST GUN IN A CALANDER YEAR...with all the rest only being a Instant check and out the door: forget this 10 day maddness. If buffoons those with CCW's and those that buy a lot of guns. Get something closer to the rest of the Union where they dont have half of this crap.......... But in the meantime: If I gotta Pay $35 per....they gotta make due with $10 for 15 minutes worth of work. If they cant do it in 15 minutes....thats thier problem with the employees they choose to hire/train or thier own predillictions to mediocraty in paperwork that they've dont countelesssssssssss times before.
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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.... I am not a number! I am a free man ~Molôn Labé!!~ 1.)All humanity would be better off if Stoooopid hurt. 2.)Why is it that if guns are sooooo unsafe that you're 9 times more likely to die at the hands of your doctor? 3.)Remember...Buy it cheap & stack it deep |
#28
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I vote that we make this lady the official PPT FFL for all Calguns! It is now everyone's duty within her area to expressly go out of your way to do your PPT's at her shop. When a merhcant complains allot and bickers and is a general pain in the ar$e about some type of transaction I make it a point to not do business with them except for the one thing that pi$$e$ them off, and I make it a point to do all of that kind of thing with them. I say lets post a sticky with this ladies FFL info and make her the official CALGUNS FFL for PPT on this fourm. |
#29
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I think I go above and beyond because I do not charge for estimates; many companies charge travel time and charge for estimates. It matters not if $10 is "enough" and "fair"; it is not up to the government to decide what my services are worth. Even if they capped it at $500 it would still not be right. The reason they are forced to charge the $10 is to stop the monopoly that would exist if they did not require it. Because California law REQUIRES that PPTs go through a dealer, the argument is if there is no cap on PPT transfers dealers will charge too much and private citizens will just stop using a dealer and do it in a parking lot.
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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.... I am not a number! I am a free man ~Molôn Labé!!~ 1.)All humanity would be better off if Stoooopid hurt. 2.)Why is it that if guns are sooooo unsafe that you're 9 times more likely to die at the hands of your doctor? 3.)Remember...Buy it cheap & stack it deep |
#31
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FYI guys, the Gunrunner in Merced is NOT a part of the chain, it has been there for like 30 years or something.
Unfortunately, the attitude the the OP posted about doesn't surprise me. I tried to talk to them about OLLs back in the early days and they refused to hear anything of it. To the OP and to anyone that needs to do a PPT or anything in Merced: You are probably going to be better off going to Stone's Gun Shop on Martin Luther King, south of Hwy 99. They have told me that they will transfer anything if it is legal.
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"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order" -Ed Howdershelt |
#32
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Depends on what their own personal definition of legal is. FFL's opinions seem to vary from actual law. Not saying Stone's is good or bad, just that "legal" is an ambiguous term when used by FFLs these days.
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#33
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#34
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FFLs are put under huge limitations and for some reason a lot of people seem to think everything is all the dealers fault. Are there bad dealers? Yes, I am sure there are but I also know there are bad customers that want to push a dealer into doing something that is guestionable like selling them HI-Cap mags in pieces so they can "rebuild" their magazines... wink wink. If you want to make a dealer happy don't put them in a situation that makes them uncomfortible. Funny, but I still people telling me how they went to Nevada and "found" some 17round mags for their glocks. Now how am I susposed to respond to them making me part of their crime? As a dealer I try to please all my customers but I have heard more stories about finding hi-cap magazines in the mail box or even worse. I always do what I call "voting with my dollars". If I don't like a business or a product I don't spend money on it. I don't buy Coke products, I don't buy Levis and I don't shop at Urners for any reason.
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"Gun control is not about guns, it is about control" Mike's Custom Firearms 661-834-7836 http://mikescustomfirearms.com/ |
#35
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Kruzr, I am the buyer of the gun. She picked up that we didn't know each other and after the seller left she asked me how we came into contact. To paraphrase what I said, We are both members of an online gun forum that offers a for sale section for firearms. He was was selling a shotgun and I wanted it. I can understand how she might think it is a firearms auction site but we met in person to do the transfer. It is no different than me answering an add in the local paper or if he was a guy from work. Regardless, we went in together and she didn't do anything extra than if he was my best friend whom I've known my whole life. This is my first 12 gauge so I was going to buy some supplies and ammo from her, but after what she said about charging me more I decided to buy from my regular guy. For you guys that are FFL's keep that in mind. I'm very loyal to those shops who offer a fair price and good service. I don't expect anyone to kiss my ***, but I don't appreciate being made to feel like I'm not welcome or I'm bothering you and I speak with my money. I did want to rent a Wilson CQB while I was there but she wouldn't allow me to do that since the seller had left. She has a 2 person policy for renting guns. That didn't bother me because that is fairly common, but I got the impression she really didn't want earn my money. Maybe she was having a bad day. She has one more chance to turn this into a positive experience. |
#36
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if thats the case, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with you, I tried to and did every thing by the book, we were both very polite with the store, and their personnel, even when it was very apparent we weren't welcome in there, I even sympathiesd with the dealer , that its not worth the hassle for her. we did all we could to be nice and understanding, but with her attitude, I'm sorry, I feel I have the right to complain, and not because she doesn't want to do the PPT's, I understand that, and if I was a dealer I'd probably feel the same way, it's not that at all, it's because she basically said don't come back under the pretense we did some thing wrong, or pulled a fast one, which is not correct at all.. |
#37
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I understand the baggage FFL holders carry when it comes to PPT's, which is why I usually try to purchase some ammo or accessories at the time to help out the merchant. But I would definitely not do business with a store that treated me the same way you were treated. Thats just bad business. |
#38
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Has anyone contacted Gunrunners management to see what they have to say about this situation?
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#39
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I did plan on purchasing a rifle from them in the near future, needless to say I wont be going back there, |
#40
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I understand what you are saying Mike; it sucks, I know it sucks. One thing you seem to be missing is that if dealers were free to charge whatever they wanted for PPTs it would become prohibitively expensive to go through a dealer. Let us say all of the dealers charged a reasonable fee of $100 to do a PPT. Now let us say I have a cheaper single shot 12 guage shotgun I wanted to sell for $100.00. If I sold it to a local person and you tacked on your $100 PPT fee it would cost $200.00. As a dealer I am sure that you can stock a cheap single shot 12 gauge for at or close to $200.00. If I brought the guy into your store as required by law and he saw a brand new shotgun for $200.00 on your shelf then why would he buy my used one? I would lose the sale in a heart beat. Next time I tried to sell the gun I would not use a dealer; I would sell it cash and carry. Everyone knows that the DOJ can only keep records on long guns for 30 days; tracking down cash and carry transactions on non-stolen firearms would be nearly impossable. To disuade people from doing this they had to make the PPT easily affordable or no one would use it. This supercedes your right to make money. I have seen dealer pricing as I used to date an employee of a gun shop. I know that on some things you make a killing and on some things you are lucky to make 10%. PPTs are one of the things you must give up to have access to the lucrative firearms business.
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