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  #1  
Old 07-22-2013, 4:38 PM
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Default M1 Garand euro markings ???

Hello, I am wondering if anyone can help identify these markings that are on my m1 Garand. I bought this earlier M1 this year. I stripped it apart and noticed it had mostly w.w.2 Springfield parts and a few unique markings on the receiver and barrel assembly that appeared to be European or ? The receiver has a C with a small star on top and on the bottom of that is a letter L with fire on top. The receiver face looks like a standard Springfield but is almost blank with a very small triangle and hand stamped serial numbers, The barrel is marked 8x57MR pv b blindee the c with star on top then a crown with a letter R then a fire ball with a letter L. This is strange because now i'm not sure if this is a 30.06 cal or 8x57 ??? Please help, thanks in Advance- firefox

Last edited by firefox 1969; 08-24-2013 at 7:17 PM..
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  #2  
Old 07-22-2013, 4:53 PM
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Looks like a Belgian proofed 8mm Mauser caliber conversion.
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Old 07-22-2013, 5:12 PM
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Marcus nailed it ^^
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Old 07-22-2013, 5:20 PM
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Wow, an 8mm garand. nice find.
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Old 07-22-2013, 6:16 PM
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amazing!look at the machining marks,thats worse than any winchester.be careful,not knowing the metalurgy of the reciever and that most ball 8mm is 196-198 gr i would definately hesitate on firing until a rebarrel was performed.
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2013, 6:21 PM
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Interesting find!
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Old 07-22-2013, 8:07 PM
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Looks like a U.S. receiver that has been scrubbed and renumbered. The number shown on the underside of the receiver is the drawing number for a U.S. M1 rifle receiver, 32nd revision.
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Last edited by smle-man; 07-22-2013 at 8:13 PM..
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Old 07-22-2013, 8:13 PM
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Pretty cool. Where did you get it from?
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Old 07-22-2013, 8:28 PM
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that oprod is worth a few bucks, but yeah, it looks like someone polished off the lettering on the heal of the receiver. I am not sure how that effects it legally though.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:59 PM
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I'll give you $350 for it.
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  #11  
Old 07-22-2013, 11:35 PM
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Here are some more pics. thanks for the feedback so far. please keep it coming.

Last edited by firefox 1969; 08-24-2013 at 7:17 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:27 AM
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A Belgian M1 Garand in 8mm? Now that is a find.

You have't tried firing it have you?
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Old 07-23-2013, 2:20 AM
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Thats a shame, would have been a nice rifle if original
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2013, 2:59 AM
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Was the proof firing done after the conversion?? Was it a "chamber sleeve" conversion or a barrel swap??

This could be a pretty unique item.
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Old 07-23-2013, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
Thats a shame, would have been a nice rifle if original
Not true. This is a military conversion, so it is "original" and very unique.
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Old 07-23-2013, 8:00 AM
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OP - do you mind if I ask, how much you paid for it??
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
Not true. This is a military conversion, so it is "original" and very unique.
I doubt that it is a military conversion. The Belgian military didn't use the M1 Rifle. It was probably a commercial or custom conversion. All firearms manufactured or imported into C.I.P. member countries - including Belgium - have to be proofed to prove they are safe before being sold to consumers. That's why it has proof marks, not because it is ex-military.

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LIEGE, THE BELGIAN PROOF HOUSE - http://www.bancdepreuves.be An institution for the benefit commerce and the safety of the user».
The proof was born in 1672 with the aim to warranty to users a minimum level of legal safety.
In 1868 the Proof House obtained the legal status and was confirmed as the highest authority for compulsatory proofs for all firearms and components made in Belgium.
Foreign firearms and components coming from countries not members of C.I.P. are subjected to the same rules When a firearm satisfies to the stringent standards of the legal Proof, it is officially hallmarked. Such stamp gives the user a label of safety.
As Orlando said, that would have been a valuable rifle with its unmodified 1-44 barrel, lockbar sights, and uncut op rod before it was altered.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
I doubt that it is a military conversion. The Belgian military didn't use the M1 Rifle. It was probably a commercial or custom conversion. All firearms manufactured or imported into C.I.P. member countries - including Belgium - have to be proofed to prove they are safe before being sold to consumers. That's why it has proof marks, not because it is ex-military.



As Orlando said, that would have been a valuable rifle with its unmodified 1-44 barrel, lockbar sights, and uncut op rod before it was altered.
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Old 07-23-2013, 1:39 PM
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Undoubtedly very unique. Very cool!
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  #20  
Old 07-23-2013, 1:46 PM
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It would be interesting to know more about when this conversion was done, and why.

8mm is a caliber that found most favor in Central Europe - Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc., and in various North African, Middle Eastern, and Asian countries.

It would seem that this conversion would have been done sometime in the mid-to-late 1940's or early 1950's period when 8mm was still in common use and available. Since Germany (where this weapon would have been prohibited at this time) and other Central Euro nations commonly called this caliber 7.92 mm, the "8mm" designation almost seems more like something meant for the U.S. market....it reminds me of the "8mm" caliber stamping found on many of the Gew 88 rifles and various Spanish Civil War used Mausers that were imported by companies like Interarms in the early 1950's.

However, altering a Garand to 8mm would not be a wise move for the American market as .30-06 ammo was readily available and cheap in this period, but 8mm (and many other foreign calibers) was not very plentiful or available - hence the conversion of a number of Ww2 bring-back 98k Mausers to 8mm-06 and Type 99 Arisakas to .30-06.

In many countries, a semi-automatic rifle such as this would not have been allowed for civilian possession and use, and it seems that in many of the poorer places in the world where modified (often in Belgium) old surplus military rifles were sold as cheap hunting rifles that there would have been more of a market for old Mausers than a newer and more expensive rifle like a Garand.
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Old 07-23-2013, 2:11 PM
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  #22  
Old 07-23-2013, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
I doubt that it is a military conversion. The Belgian military didn't use the M1 Rifle. It was probably a commercial or custom conversion. All firearms manufactured or imported into C.I.P. member countries - including Belgium - have to be proofed to prove they are safe before being sold to consumers. That's why it has proof marks, not because it is ex-military.

As Orlando said, that would have been a valuable rifle with its unmodified 1-44 barrel, lockbar sights, and uncut op rod before it was altered.
I like Marcus' explanation better. Also, at the end of WW2, the Belgians would have had lots of surplus 8mm, left-over from the German occupation.


Also, the US gave the vast majority of our surplus armament to our little ally countries after the war, whether rifles or vehicles. The Belgians probably needed a semi-automatic service rifle right at the end or right after the war and they had plenty of 8mm, so it was cheaper to have their factories re-barrel the M1's rather than wait in line with everyone else in Europe for their hand-out of 30-06.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus von W. View Post
It would be interesting to know more about when this conversion was done, and why.

8mm is a caliber that found most favor in Central Europe - Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, etc., and in various North African, Middle Eastern, and Asian countries.

It would seem that this conversion would have been done sometime in the mid-to-late 1940's or early 1950's period when 8mm was still in common use and available. Since Germany (where this weapon would have been prohibited at this time) and other Central Euro nations commonly called this caliber 7.92 mm, the "8mm" designation almost seems more like something meant for the U.S. market....it reminds me of the "8mm" caliber stamping found on many of the Gew 88 rifles and various Spanish Civil War used Mausers that were imported by companies like Interarms in the early 1950's.

However, altering a Garand to 8mm would not be a wise move for the American market as .30-06 ammo was readily available and cheap in this period, but 8mm (and many other foreign calibers) was not very plentiful or available - hence the conversion of a number of Ww2 bring-back 98k Mausers to 8mm-06 and Type 99 Arisakas to .30-06.

In many countries, a semi-automatic rifle such as this would not have been allowed for civilian possession and use, and it seems that in many of the poorer places in the world where modified (often in Belgium) old surplus military rifles were sold as cheap hunting rifles that there would have been more of a market for old Mausers than a newer and more expensive rifle like a Garand.
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  #23  
Old 07-23-2013, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
I like Marcus' explanation better. Also, at the end of WW2, the Belgians would have had lots of surplus 8mm, left-over from the German occupation.


Also, the US gave the vast majority of our surplus armament to our little ally countries after the war, whether rifles or vehicles. The Belgians probably needed a semi-automatic service rifle right at the end or right after the war and they had plenty of 8mm, so it was cheaper to have their factories re-barrel the M1's rather than wait in line with everyone else in Europe for their hand-out of 30-06.
Regardless of your preferences, Marcus didn't say anything supporting your theory that it is a military conversion.

Again, while many foreign countries received M1 Rifles as military aid, Belgium wasn't one of them.

Quote:
  • Argentina: Received about 30,000 M1s from the U.S. government before 1964. Some were converted to accept BM59 magazines in the 1960s.[59]
  • Brazil: Received large numbers of M1s from the U.S. government in the early 1950s. Some were converted to the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and to accept FN FAL magazines.[59]
  • Cambodia: Received M1 rifles from the U.S. government.[60]
  • Cuba[61]
  • Denmark - Received 69,810 M1 rifles (designated "Gevær m/50") from the U.S. government prior to 1964. Some were converted to the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge.[62] Also purchased 20,000 M1s from Italy.[63] The rifle has now been phased out of service.
  • Ethiopia: Received 20,700 M1 rifles from the U.S. government in the 1960s.[62]
  • France - Used by the Foreign Legion and Free French Forces.[64][65] France also received 232,500 M1 rifles from the U.S. government in 1950-1964.[62]
  • West Germany: Received 46,750 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1965.[62]
  • Greece: Received 186,090 M1 and 1880 M1C/M1D rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62] Still in use for ceremonial duties by the Presidential Guard.
  • Indonesia: Received between 55,000 and 78,000 M1s and a minor number of M1Cs from the U.S. government prior to 1971; some rifles also supplied from Italy.[59]
  • Iran: Received 165,490 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1964.[62]
  • Israel: Received up to 60,000 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62]
  • Italy: Used by the army from 1945. Beretta license-built 100,000 M1s from 1950 until the adoption of the BM59 in 1959.[63] Also received 232,000 M1s from the U.S. government between 1950 and 1970.[59]
  • Japan: Issued to the National Police Reserve. Still used by the JSDF as a ceremonial weapon.[66]
  • Jordan: Received an estimated 25,000-30,000 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1974.[62]
  • Republic of Korea: Received 296,450 M1 rifles from the U.S. government in 1964-1974.[62]
  • Laos: Received 36,270 M1 rifles from the U.S. government in 1950-1975.[62]
  • Norway: Received 72,800 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1964.[62] Still used by the drill team of the Hans Majestet Kongens Garde.
  • Pakistan: Received possibly 150,000 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62]
  • Panama[67]
  • Paraguay: Received 30,750 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62]
  • Philippines: Received 34,300 M1 and 2630 M1D rifles from the U.S. government in 1950-1975.[62]
  • Saudi Arabia: Received 34,530 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62]
  • South Vietnam: Received 220,300 M1 and 520 M1C/M1D rifles from the U.S. government in 1950-1975.[62]
  • Thailand: Received about 40,000 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1965.[62]
  • Turkey: Received 312,430 M1 rifles from the U.S. government in 1953-1970.[62]
  • United States: Standard issue rifle of the U.S. Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force from 1936 to 1957.[68] Still in use for official military ceremonies and ROTC units.
  • Uruguay[67]
  • Venezuela: Received 55,670 M1 rifles from the U.S. government prior to 1975.[62]
  • Republic of China:The Chinese Nationalist Army got the M1 Garand after the Nationalist Party Government had been in Taiwan during 1950s. They used the M1 Garand until 1968 and it was replaced by M14. Nowadays, M1 Garand is still the main rifle of the ROC Army honor guard.
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Old 07-23-2013, 3:24 PM
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I just thought of something. I have heard that Israel converted some M1 Garands to 8mm.

I personally have't seen one, so I couldn't tell you about there proofs and stamps.

Maybe FN did the conversions?
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Old 07-23-2013, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
I just thought of something. I have heard that Israel converted some M1 Garands to 8mm.

I personally have't seen one, so I couldn't tell you about there proofs and stamps.
If the Israelis converted their 8x57 mm K98k's to 7.62 NATO

(web photo)


why would they convert M1 Rifles to 8x57 mm?
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Old 07-23-2013, 3:56 PM
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Israel was formed in 1948. 7.62 NATO was introduced in 1954. So that leaves six years.

The Israelis were given much of the Allies' surplus in captured German small arms, like those K98's, this included millions of rounds of 8mm Mauser.

Would only make sense that they would try to work with what they had, especially when the Arabs invaded in 1948.
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Old 07-23-2013, 4:15 PM
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Perhaps it was an experimental version?? Don't see why Belgium couldn't have been considering participating in Lend-Lease after the war.....maybe they experimented with converting the Garand to 8mm?? Decided not to go with it?? And this rifle was sold after the experiment concluded.....sorry if I'm reaching here.

Could've been a Nazi armorer playing around with a captured M1. Maybe he thought the German govt would catch onto the idea and he would get the credit for it. As I recall, the Japanese copied the Garand to a limited extent.
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Old 07-23-2013, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bainter1212 View Post
Perhaps it was an experimental version?? Don't see why Belgium couldn't have been considering participating in Lend-Lease after the war.....maybe they experimented with converting the Garand to 8mm?? Decided not to go with it?? And this rifle was sold after the experiment concluded.....sorry if I'm reaching here.

Could've been a Nazi armorer playing around with a captured M1. Maybe he thought the German govt would catch onto the idea and he would get the credit for it. As I recall, the Japanese copied the Garand to a limited extent.
Now that I think about it, Milsurp is probably right with the Belgians. They were experimenting with prototypes, that would later spawn the FN-49, before the war, like the French with the MAS-44 and MAS-49 series.

I don't think it was a Nazi. He wouldn't have used Belgian proof marks.
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Old 07-23-2013, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
Israel was formed in 1948. 7.62 NATO was introduced in 1954. So that leaves six years.

The Israelis were given much of the Allies' surplus in captured German small arms, like those K98's, this included millions of rounds of 8mm Mauser.

Would only make sense that they would try to work with what they had, especially when the Arabs invaded in 1948.
It's easy to speculate and make up theories that have no factual basis. If this rifle was used by the Israelis, why are there no Israeli markings like the ones seen on Israeli K98k's? What evidence do you have that the rifle shown in this thread was ever in Israel?

Please provide documentation/proof/link/source that either Belgium or Israel had a program of converting M1 Rifles to 8x57. Please show even one other M1 Rifle with either Belgian or Israeli markings that was converted to 8x57. If there was a military conversion program as you claim surely more than the one unique specimen is this thread would have survived. Converted Israeli K98k's are well known and documented. You are claiming some government conversion program for M1 Rifles took place yet no other specimen has surfaced until now?

It makes far more sense that the rifle shown in this thread is a civilian/commercial/custom conversion. It is quite common for civilian gunsmiths to convert military surplus rifles to other cartridges. There are plenty of examples in the US of sporterized military surplus rifles converted to other cartridges.
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Old 07-23-2013, 5:32 PM
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Per Google, bblindee translate as Belgin for jacketed bullets.
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareBlindee.htm
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Old 07-23-2013, 6:12 PM
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Here is an interesting conversation from the CMP forum: http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=83813


Honestly, there is a lot of "theory". Many Garands that we sent to other countries never made it back home to the US. Who knows what other countries could have done to them and we have no clue what happened.



I was just speculating whether his was Israeli or not. The triangle stamp on the back of the reciever could mean that it ended up in Iraq for all we know.

All I can say is that it ended up and Belgium at one point.

Lots of weird things military armourers do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
It's easy to speculate and make up theories that have no factual basis. If this rifle was used by the Israelis, why are there no Israeli markings like the ones seen on Israeli K98k's? What evidence do you have that the rifle shown in this thread was ever in Israel?

Please provide documentation/proof/link/source that either Belgium or Israel had a program of converting M1 Rifles to 8x57. Please show even one other M1 Rifle with either Belgian or Israeli markings that was converted to 8x57. If there was a military conversion program as you claim surely more than the one unique specimen is this thread would have survived. Converted Israeli K98k's are well known and documented. You are claiming some government conversion program for M1 Rifles took place yet no other specimen has surfaced until now?

It makes far more sense that the rifle shown in this thread is a civilian/commercial/custom conversion. It is quite common for civilian gunsmiths to convert military surplus rifles to other cartridges. There are plenty of examples in the US of sporterized military surplus rifles converted to other cartridges.
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Old 07-23-2013, 9:04 PM
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Post WW2 the Belgians used #4 Lee-Enfields and then quickly moved to an updated military 98 type mauser action in .30 as a transition piece to the FN49 in .30 M2. I am often wrong but I don't think the Belgians used 8mm rifles. They were 7.65 pre-war and .303 and then .30 post war.

I think it is a commercial conversion done for the civilian market. Belgians have been permitted to own semi auto rifles at least in the past.
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Old 07-23-2013, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post

I was just speculating whether his was Israeli or not. The triangle stamp on the back of the reciever could mean that it ended up in Iraq for all we know.

All I can say is that it ended up and Belgium at one point.

Lots of weird things military armourers do.
Let's go back to your original statement.

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Not true. This is a military conversion, so it is "original" and very unique.
So are you still saying "This is a military conversion"?
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Old 07-23-2013, 9:51 PM
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I know that they used the 1889 Mauser in 7.65 and then was refurbed in 1936 in anticipation of WW2. The Free Belgian forces used No.1 Mk. III SMLE's. They went to the No. 4 in the later part of the war and right after.


It might be a commercial, but I got a gut feeling that there is more to it. Re-barreling a Garand for the hell of it is silly. Not like Belgium had a shortage of weapons (particularly Mausers) when the war ended.
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Old 07-23-2013, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
Let's go back to your original statement.

So are you still saying "This is a military conversion"?
I won't deny it. I will give it a fair chance of being a commercial, but I still believe that there was military involvement in that conversion.


The whole reason why I connected Belguim with Israeli is that FN made K98's for Israel in 7.62 NATO.
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Last edited by Emdawg; 07-23-2013 at 9:56 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post

It might be a commercial, but I got a gut feeling that there is more to it. Re-barreling a Garand for the hell of it is silly.
Why do you think it was "for the hell of it"? As I already said, civilian gunsmiths rechamber military surplus rifles all the time to meet the desires of their customers.

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I won't deny it. I will give it a fair chance of being a commercial, but I still believe that there was military involvement in that conversion.
Your "gut feeling" and belief is based on what? Where are the military markings? I believe you thought that those proof marks = military, but that's incorrect.

Last edited by Milsurp Collector; 07-23-2013 at 11:26 PM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 1:48 AM
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If the barrel is marked Springfield was it made that way, or has the entire barrel been bored and re-lined? Remember the bores on 8mm and 3006 are very different. .323 vs .308 Thats allot, enough to cause a bolt lug shearing pressure spike. I think you need to slug the barrel before you attempt to fire it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 4:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
Why do you think it was "for the hell of it"? As I already said, civilian gunsmiths rechamber military surplus rifles all the time to meet the desires of their customers.



Your "gut feeling" and belief is based on what? Where are the military markings? I believe you thought that those proof marks = military, but that's incorrect.
Because it's a gas operated gun, the barrel would've been a bit more expensive to recreate on machinery than just your common bolt action barrel. Basically a rebarrel job would've been a real expensive proposition. Not something you would see done by any old run of the mill farmer. It would in essence have been a custom job from the block of steel, to the barrel vise and action wrench, to the threads on the barrel and everything else.

I suppose the barrel could've been bored out and re-rifled. Don't know what that involves myself.

Would a standard 8mm load bend the op rod?? What was the standard pressures involved with your common 8mm round back in the day??

If this was a custom job, it would be basically for a novelty piece. Nice bolt hunting rifles would have been widely available and of good quality in Europe just after the war.
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Old 07-24-2013, 9:25 AM
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It would in essence have been a custom job from the block of steel, to the barrel vise and action wrench, to the threads on the barrel and everything else.

I suppose the barrel could've been bored out and re-rifled. Don't know what that involves myself.
Did you see this picture?



The original barrel was modified. No one made a new barrel out of a block of steel.

I really don't understand why people don't follow the principle of Occam's Razor:

Quote:
It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. In other words, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
Rather than coming up with fanciful theories about unknown Belgian military conversion programs or FN modifying M1 Rifles for Israel or construction of an experimental rifle or people creating new barrels etc., why not accept the simple answer that it was a civilian conversion of a military rifle. Maybe a Belgian civilian picked up a M1 Rifle during or after the Battle of the Bulge (makes sense since the rifle has lockbar sights and an uncut op rod) and had a gunsmith convert it to 8x57. Why is that so hard to believe?
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Old 07-24-2013, 9:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector View Post
Did you see this picture?



The original barrel was modified. No one made a new barrel out of a block of steel.

I really don't understand why people don't follow the principle of Occam's Razor:



Rather than coming up with fanciful theories about unknown Belgian military conversion programs or FN modifying M1 Rifles for Israel or construction of an experimental rifle or people creating new barrels etc., why not accept the simple answer that it was a civilian conversion of a military rifle. Maybe a Belgian civilian picked up a M1 Rifle during or after the Battle of the Bulge (makes sense since the rifle has lockbar sights and an uncut op rod) and had a gunsmith convert it to 8x57. Why is that so hard to believe?
Well....the question is, WHY would a civilian do this?? Hunting?? Just to have it??
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