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  #1  
Old 07-18-2013, 12:55 PM
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Default Argentine Mauser in 308

Hey guys,

My dad just picked me up a sporterized 1891 Argentine Mauser with a .308 barrel on it. I'm pretty sure he got it from Lock, Stock n Barrel on auction, but how safe is this to shoot with the new barrel? Should I be concerned? Would it be difficult to return the rifle to normal or is it not worth it on such an old rifle?

Any feedback would be great. Any experience with a 308 Mauser would be excellent!
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Old 07-18-2013, 1:29 PM
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Number one thing is that the 1891 is an early small-ring mauser, so I would be very careful with what .308 loads to use in it.
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Old 07-18-2013, 2:26 PM
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I have read that there is almost a 10,000psi difference between the 7.65 round it originally shot and the win 308 round, which prompted this thread.
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Old 07-18-2013, 2:36 PM
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Yeah are you sure the barrel says .308 or did it just advertise as .308? My buddy has a 7.62 nato barrel on a Chilean Mauser and it shoots the x51 ammo just fine but I would not want to see .308 in there.
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Old 07-18-2013, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
Number one thing is that the 1891 is an early small-ring mauser, so I would be very careful with what .308 loads to use in it.
Yup this rings of the same issues with the Spanish FR-7.
Tread lightly my friend.
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Old 07-18-2013, 3:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ThemBastards View Post
Yeah are you sure the barrel says .308 or did it just advertise as .308? My buddy has a 7.62 nato barrel on a Chilean Mauser and it shoots the x51 ammo just fine but I would not want to see .308 in there.
Is this a pre 98 Chilean Mauser or a 1912-61 Chilean Mauser. If it is a 1912-61 it is perfectly safe with standard 308 Win loads.

With regards to the 91 Argie. I had a guy who wanted me to put a surplus 7.62NATO barrel on a 91 Argentine action. I refused even after he said he would download to 30-30 specs. Because he had previously said he didn't handload, and then he told me he would. I didn't want a gun I had helped him put together with a caliber too strong for the action, floating around out there.
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Old 07-18-2013, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormilan2 View Post
Is this a pre 98 Chilean Mauser or a 1912-61 Chilean Mauser. If it is a 1912-61 it is perfectly safe with standard 308 Win loads.

With regards to the 91 Argie. I had a guy who wanted me to put a surplus 7.62NATO barrel on a 91 Argentine action. I refused even after he said he would download to 30-30 specs. Because he had previously said he didn't handload, and then he told me he would. I didn't want a gun I had helped him put together with a caliber too strong for the action, floating around out there.
98 Chilean
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Old 07-18-2013, 4:19 PM
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98 Chilean
That should be fine with .308 or 7.62 NATO. Good strong 98 Mauser action.
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Old 07-18-2013, 5:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emdawg View Post
That should be fine with .308 or 7.62 NATO. Good strong 98 Mauser action.
Really? Good to know, I will pass that on to him.
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Old 07-18-2013, 6:31 PM
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Still, be sure not to use any fancy loads in it.


Just run-of-the-mill commercial and older military surplus will work fine.
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Old 07-18-2013, 6:33 PM
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What did I miss? The OP said it was an 1891 Argentine action. How did we get on the subject of a 1912 Chilean?

The 1891 Argentine is earlier than an 1895, and may have fewer safety features.

Handload 308 Win to specs for 300 Savage, and you should be fine.

Crunch
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Old 07-18-2013, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crunch130 View Post
What did I miss? The OP said it was an 1891 Argentine action. How did we get on the subject of a 1912 Chilean?

The 1891 Argentine is earlier than an 1895, and may have fewer safety features.

Handload 308 Win to specs for 300 Savage, and you should be fine.

Crunch

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OP, what is the rifle exactly?
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
My dad just picked me up a sporterized 1891 Argentine Mauser with a .308 barrel on it.
What Crunch said, load .308 cases using .300 Savage load data.
Are you sure the barrel has been replaced with a .308 barrel? or is it the original Argy barrel re-chambered to .308? Got pics?
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Old 07-19-2013, 7:57 AM
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I should have mentioned that 7.62 NATO was "based" on the 300 Savage cartridge, with the pressure pushed up to approximately match the performance of M2 Ball 30-06 with 150-ish grain bullets. 308 Win was a commercial licensing of 7.62 NATO, nominally the same on the outside, but with some specification and tolerance changes.

So using 300 Savage load data in a bolt action 308 or 7.62 NATO rifle is not some coincidence or rule of thumb, it is based on actual design intentions.

I'm sure some folks were already aware of this, but it's good for all 308 owners to know.

Thanks,
Crunch
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Old 07-20-2013, 5:57 AM
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Really appreciate the discussion guys, I'm starting to look for 308 cal rifles since I've newly acquired one and have one on order. This is a lesson to me that even if the barrel is said to be or even marked 308 or 7.62 that the action must be evaluated and researched.

Cheers!
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Old 07-20-2013, 6:07 AM
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The 7.62NATO/308Win was designed to be fired from semi and full auto weapons. Shorter case, with a thicker rim so the extractor wouldn't pull through it. With the improvements in powders, it was found possible to duplicate 30-06 performance in a smaller case, so the designres started working with the 300 Savage case.
With military loads in semi and full auto weapons, there is virtualy no difference between a 30-06 and a 7.62/308. It is only when you go to heavier bullets in bolt rifles that you begin to notice a difference between the two rounds.
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Old 07-20-2013, 9:13 AM
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Pre-98 small ring actions were designed to handle "maximum" pressure loads of 44,000 to 46,000 psi. Most military loads for these rifles were loaded in the 42,000psi range.
46,000 psi CUP - 7mm Mauser (SAAMI maximum) loaded at 42-44,000
46,800 psi CUP - 7.62 CETME (from the manual) loaded at 41,000
49,700 psi CUP - 7.62 NATO (from the manual)
52,000 psi CUP - 308 Winchester (SAAMI maximum)
One of the major design changes from the small ring actions to the 98 actions was the gas handling capabilities in the event of a case rupture. Small rings can give you a face full of hot gases.
Shooting .308Win in a small ring is risky at best. Catastrophic failure is semi rare, but does happen. It doesn't take long for lug set back to occur, then you have a nice milsurp paperweight.
Factory .300 Savage loads are in the same "working" pressures as the 7mm Mauser, that the small rings were developed for.
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Old 07-23-2013, 8:51 AM
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Sorry for a lag in response guys, I didn't expect this much feed back.

It is a Mauser Modelo Argentino 1891 made in Loewe Berlin. It has a coulpe of makers marks on it one looks like it could be a monogram or initials in cursive maybe "M" on top of "B", and the second mark looks like it could be two hands shaking, which i thought were wings until I looked at it this morning with a magnafier, you can se the thumb nail on the hand on the right side of the mark. Last but not least the barrel is a stepped 24.5 inch barrel only "308" stamped on the step closest to the barrel. It has an almost identical blue color as the action, but i gues someone could have reblued the whole gun at one point.

I dont handload as I don't have the equipment. So if shooting factory loads from this guy is a no go I am wondering if it would be possible to restore it to original. If that is totally cost prohibitive then what? Any Ideas?
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Old 07-23-2013, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staticsouls View Post
Sorry for a lag in response guys, I didn't expect this much feed back.

It is a Mauser Modelo Argentino 1891 made in Loewe Berlin. It has a coulpe of makers marks on it one looks like it could be a monogram or initials in cursive maybe "M" on top of "B", and the second mark looks like it could be two hands shaking, which i thought were wings until I looked at it this morning with a magnafier, you can se the thumb nail on the hand on the right side of the mark. Last but not least the barrel is a stepped 24.5 inch barrel only "308" stamped on the step closest to the barrel. It has an almost identical blue color as the action, but i gues someone could have reblued the whole gun at one point.

I dont handload as I don't have the equipment. So if shooting factory loads from this guy is a no go I am wondering if it would be possible to restore it to original. If that is totally cost prohibitive then what? Any Ideas?
Hmm... "stepped barrel" sounds like an original barrel. If so, this may be a rechambered .765 barrel, although, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished with a 7.62 x 51 (.308W) case and a 7.65 x 53 original chamber.

I've got two sported '91 Argy's, but they are both still in the original caliber.
Does yours look anything like this one?


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Old 07-23-2013, 8:21 PM
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Wow thats funny it looks just like yours! Mine came with a williams peep sight that was an added bonus.

Where can i have someone live fire test this guy for me? Lol i live near on-target. It would be a really sweet rifle to hunt with as a single shot 308, but i wanna make sure im not the brunt of bubba smith.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:02 PM
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If it is a re-chambered 7.65 barrel, you may not be happy with the accuracy. The original barrel is a .311 groove rather than a .308.

I suggest that you take a cast of the chamber to determine what caliber it actually is.
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Old 07-24-2013, 9:47 AM
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Staticsouls, both Federal and Remington offer "low recoil" .308 Winchester ammo that stays in or under 43,000 psi. That is within the working pressures of your action.
I've run across several 91's that were re-chambered to .308Win. They either pattern like a shotgun, or they can hold a 4-5" group at 100yrds. You'll have to shoot it to find out.
The Federal ammo is loaded with a 170grn flat nose soft point 30/30 bullet, and the Rem with a 125grn soft nose spire point. The Fed round should give better results with the twist in the 7.65 barrel.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:05 AM
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Slug the bore, if it is a .311, you'll need to hand load using .311 bullets. A 7.62x54 expander ball can be swapped into the sizing die easily and the 174gr match bullets from Hornady and Sierra should work very well.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:24 AM
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I've got an '09 Argentine Mauser that has the original 7.65 barrel rechambered for 30.06. It is decently accurate With .308 rounds, but certainly no tack driver.




I shot these 4 shot groups at 50 yards (they look like about 3 MOA). The hits were very high..I had to take a 6 o'clock hold on the small bottom target and hit the upper target. At 100 yards the rounds were going right over the target backer..

150 grain Federal PS's @ 50 yards:


180 grain PS's @ 50 yards
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Old 07-25-2013, 5:30 PM
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Yeah don't overload ... http://imgur.com/a/QrnnG#0
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Old 07-25-2013, 7:27 PM
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Yeah don't overload ... http://imgur.com/a/QrnnG#0
Damn!
What's the story behind that?
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Old 07-25-2013, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Yeah don't overload ... http://imgur.com/a/QrnnG#0
Jeez... That is exactly why i started this thread. TB i hope that wanst your hand, but if it was im sorry to see that and i wish you a speedy recovery.

I had a reload that went bad in my rock island and although i wasnt hurt it kinda creeped me out enough to think about it from time to time.
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Old 07-25-2013, 7:54 PM
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Those are some nice groups Mustang! If mine is capable of doing anything like that id be okay with it.
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Old 07-25-2013, 7:58 PM
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Those are some nice groups Mustang! If mine is capable of doing anything like that id be okay with it.
Keep in mind, that was at 50 yards.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:45 PM
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Not my hand thankfully. Here is the post I don't think there is an explanation though.

http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments...t_to_overload/
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