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  #41  
Old 07-18-2013, 5:34 AM
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it is called old age, i cant see threw iron sights good enough to hit a barn door
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  #42  
Old 07-18-2013, 6:36 AM
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Personally, I am glad I have an aimpoint.


I have 97% iron sights, but this thing is just not that big of a PITA so I can focus on shooting and not fiddling with the sight too much.
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  #43  
Old 07-18-2013, 6:48 AM
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Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
^^ Right on...

Does anyone really think that the men of yore wouldn't...in a hot minute...slap any one of our modern optics on their rifles if given the chance??? Give me a break! They'd just about kill to have the quality glass we can get nowadays.

Scopes make getting accurate hits at distance easier, period. No contest. And don't try to feed me that nonsense about, "Well I saw a guy with irons out-shoot everyone with a scope at 600 meters dagnabit!" The bottom line is that the guy who cleaned-up at the shoot with irons would've had better groupings if he was using a scope (quality scope properly zeroed of course!).

His fundamentals are good, so he shot well with irons. He would have shot better with a scope. The guys that were using scopes weren't out-shot because irons are better, it was because the shooter was better. You can learn the fundamentals of shooting just fine with a scope.
Thats true, the shooter would have shot better groups with a scope, and that speaks of the shooter, not of the sights. Its just sad that some shooters think they'll shoot better just because they have a scope on their rifle instead of learning the fundamentals of shooting. Almost like if they spend more money on optics, they should be shooting more accurate vs learning the fundamentals then learning how to use their scope.
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  #44  
Old 07-18-2013, 7:19 AM
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Although I agree that a rifleman that has perfected his craft will do better behind a scoped rifle than with iron sights, what I'm saying is everyone should perfect their fundamentals with iron sight and once you've done that switching to optics would be no big deal. A scope has its place in the rifle world but not in a C&R rifle unless it came with one as it left the factory.

Today however a lot of new shooters slap on an optics to "make up" for their lack of fundamentals in marksmanship. Very sad. My 17 year old son had outshot me on several occasions at matches and I attribute that to his better eyesight. Although he learned well his fundamental in marksmanship over the years and is still working on it to improve, he is not a polished rifleman due to lack of experience but his better than 20/20 vision sure makes up for some of his lack of experience.

My observation the past several vintage matches that I attended.
1. This month's Modesto match iron sight winner outscored the highest scoped shooter by a good margin.
2. Last moth's military silhouette match the match winner with iron sight outshot all but one scoped shooter. Not only that but the top three iron sight shooter outshot 55% of the scope shooters.
3. Two 3x600 matched ago an iron sight shooter tied the score of a high score scope shooter.
4. Three 3x600 matches ago iron sight shooters beat all scoped shooters.

Am I just being nostalgic to continue to hang on to an antiquated iron sights when a name like Schmidt & Bender, Kahles, Leica, US Optics etc are available? Maybe. I will continue to hold on to this archaic sighting system till I'm forced to learn Braille.
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  #45  
Old 07-18-2013, 7:20 AM
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I've been wearing glasses or contacts since I was 10. Now I'm 54 and iron sights are a challenge. 100 yards is OK, but past that a scope helps a lot.
If it keeps us senile citizens in the game then I'm all for it. Now if I can just remember what I was shooting at
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  #46  
Old 07-18-2013, 7:35 AM
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All the rifles I have, had scopes when I got them. The only one without is an old 22 I have. Then again, I mostly shoot pistols, although I put a scope on my 460xvr...But the plan is to use that for 100yds +. My last car was a stick, but the one I just purchased is not.
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2013, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro-nra View Post
Although I agree that a rifleman that has perfected his craft will do better behind a scoped rifle than with iron sights, what I'm saying is everyone should perfect their fundamentals with iron sight and once you've done that switching to optics would be no big deal. A scope has its place in the rifle world but not in a C&R rifle unless it came with one as it left the factory.

Today however a lot of new shooters slap on an optics to "make up" for their lack of fundamentals in marksmanship. Very sad. My 17 year old son had outshot me on several occasions at matches and I attribute that to his better eyesight. Although he learned well his fundamental in marksmanship over the years and is still working on it to improve, he is not a polished rifleman due to lack of experience but his better than 20/20 vision sure makes up for some of his lack of experience.

My observation the past several vintage matches that I attended.
1. This month's Modesto match iron sight winner outscored the highest scoped shooter by a good margin.
2. Last moth's military silhouette match the match winner with iron sight outshot all but one scoped shooter. Not only that but the top three iron sight shooter outshot 55% of the scope shooters.
3. Two 3x600 matched ago an iron sight shooter tied the score of a high score scope shooter.
4. Three 3x600 matches ago iron sight shooters beat all scoped shooters.

Am I just being nostalgic to continue to hang on to an antiquated iron sights when a name like Schmidt & Bender, Kahles, Leica, US Optics etc are available? Maybe. I will continue to hold on to this archaic sighting system till I'm forced to learn Braille.
^^^^
totally agree

with new shooters, they feel that a scope will automatically make them a great shot, but just because you can see the target and line up your crosshairs, doesn't mean you're going to hit what you're aiming at. If their fundamentals are lacking, they'll keep scratching their heads wondering why their shots never hit where they're aiming instead of realizing that they might have jerked the trigger or any number of other reasons.

I will continue to hold out as well, besides, the money I save, I can buy more ammo or more guns
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:30 AM
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If you can't see it you can't hit it.

I learned with iron sights. I teach newbs to start with iron sights. But once you have the basics down, why not get more advanced?

Of course it depends on what you're doing. If you are just plinking or shooting that doesn't require precision, then the expense and trouble of scopes aren't necessary.

If you are into precision shooting, then scopes are necessary.
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  #49  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:33 AM
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Irons for anything under 200 meters, a scope beyond that.

I dont really put both eyes open, red dot style optics in the same class as magnified rifle scopes however. I sort of consider them somewhere in between.

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  #50  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:50 AM
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If the gun has irons, I'd use them. I got a few guns with none.

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  #51  
Old 07-18-2013, 12:30 PM
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Things that take batteries are weak. I have two incredible race wheel guns that have red dots on them. Batteries dead then its that sucks and back in bag.

Love iron sights..rugged /no fogging/glass crack scratch/ losing zero ect.

But, I love my acog with larue qd mounts. Off on use irons or acog and holds zero when swapping off and on.
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  #52  
Old 07-18-2013, 12:42 PM
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My history. Start with pistols, not race guns of course. A regular S&W or, for me, a number of years with a Supermatic Citation and then Smith revolvers. Pistols certainly makes one learn to use iron sights. And then you get to peep sights. An inexpensive target rifle would do, after the pistols.
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  #53  
Old 07-18-2013, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
I too prefer iron sights.
I still have not mastered scopes and only have 3 on modern rifles.
All of my C&Rs are iron sights and I do much better with them than with the scopes.
I just changed out the sight on my Enfield (no4 MK1) with one of these from Liberty Tree Collectors.
Those Savage Mk1 sights are worth some money. Not that many made.
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:02 PM
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I guess it depends what your goal is. If it is to hit the target at distances consistently and easily in bright and low light situations, the shooter selects a scope. If it is to challenge yourself, pay homage to tradition, or build discipline then you may be an iron sight shooter.

It is almost indecent how easy it is to hit the 400 yd target at the range I go to with a scope sighted rifle, for example an AR15A2. The same rifle with iron sights is more of a challenge with the 59 yr old eyes that I now own. Up to age 50 the scope wasn't that much of an advantage. Now it is.

BTW, the manual transmission's days are numbered, at least in the U.S. EPA mandates for fuel economy and emissions are much easier to meet with an auto trans than a manual and manufacturers will be forced to discontinue them to meet their numbers. This is even carrying over to heavy trucks with automated manual transmissions. Not that long from now manuals will only be in old iron.
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  #55  
Old 07-18-2013, 8:55 PM
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You are absolutely right that the manual transmission will slowly die just like iron sights will. Sad to say but shooting iron sight is a dying art. We are a dying breed and will be extinct before we know it.

For now, I will hold on to my archaic iron sights along with my 6 speed manual Ram and Jetta turbo diesels. My rifles will not have accouterments made out of sand and the vehicles I drive will have three skinny pedals and no spark plugs.
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  #56  
Old 07-18-2013, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pro-nra View Post
TWhat ever happened to iron sights? What is wrong with iron sighs that they are vanishing on the face of the earth faster than our 2nd Amendment?
Got me;

Most of the time I'm shooting with iron sights, including with SIG-556s, G3s, and AR15s, unless I'm specifically out with one of my larger bore semi-auto guns, usually just the higher-end FN FALS & AR-10s; the rest that get a scope are bigger-bore custom bolt actions or .50BMG rifles I have specifically set up for long range, and only in surplus of 300 yards or more.

Anything under 300 yards, I'm using iron sights. It would just be too costly for me to scope everything. Of course on many guns I stick to the basics anyway, for the authenticity - especially C&R: 1903-A3, Mausers, Enfields, 1917s, SVT-40s, Garands, Remington 8s/81s, etc.

Of course, my eyes are still good; one day my affection for scopes may increase.
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  #57  
Old 07-18-2013, 9:53 PM
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I prefer irons for most sub 500 stuff...really dont like red dots or Eotechs. I do love a nice vintage PEM/PU setup tho'.
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2013, 10:06 PM
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Most of the time I'm shooting with iron sights, including G3s
Wow a G3? Is it a pre or post 86 dealer sample?. Although it has short barrel @ 18" G3s are still accurate rifles. I bet it is hard to keep on target at full auto.
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  #59  
Old 07-19-2013, 5:09 AM
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Wow a G3? Is it a pre or post 86 dealer sample?. Although it has short barrel @ 18" G3s are still accurate rifles. I bet it is hard to keep on target at full auto.
OK, OK.... I get it. - it's like saying "AK" in that regard.

Nearly 2 decades ago I did own an original HK91 before coming to CA . And now that I think of it, one of my "semi-auto G3s" (PTR91) is set-up with a 20" heavy barrel and MFI low profile scope mount, with basic optics, but nothing extravagantly luxurious in that regard.
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What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?
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  #60  
Old 07-19-2013, 5:36 AM
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I've never taken one shot through a scoped rifle. It can only make me a worse and less confident shooter. I don't trust them. Not the glass itself, but the whole system. The optic is paired with the rifle, but in reality it's only as reliable as the mount is. It is large and protrusive and easily disturbed therefore rendered nearly useless.
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  #61  
Old 07-19-2013, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
I've never taken one shot through a scoped rifle. It can only make me a worse and less confident shooter. I don't trust them. Not the glass itself, but the whole system. The optic is paired with the rifle, but in reality it's only as reliable as the mount is. It is large and protrusive and easily disturbed therefore rendered nearly useless.
I generally agree with this statement. My first real exposure with distance shooting was in Army BCT and we had 20" barreled M16's with fixed carry handle sights. With some training I was quite able to hit 300 yard silhouettes with it, even though with perfect vision the target is completely covered by the front sight post at that distance. The Marines shoot at even farther distances. This was years and years ago but I still very much prefer iron sights (and non magnified RDS) for 99% of my rifle shooting.
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  #62  
Old 07-19-2013, 6:29 AM
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I don't own a scope. I want to learn to shoot well at distance with iron sights while I'm young and my eyesight cooperates. Plenty of geezer years to fiddle with scopes.
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
I've never taken one shot through a scoped rifle. It can only make me a worse and less confident shooter. I don't trust them. Not the glass itself, but the whole system. The optic is paired with the rifle, but in reality it's only as reliable as the mount is. It is large and protrusive and easily disturbed therefore rendered nearly useless.
Any sighting system is subject to failure. I've seen numerous iron sight systems that are loose, worn out, bent, broken, made incorrectly, installed incorrectly. A very small amount of movement in the front or rear sight will cause a group to grow significantly at a distance. I like iron sights too but a competent shooter should be skilled with all types of sighting systems.
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Old 07-19-2013, 6:06 PM
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I use iron sights for my right eye and a scope for the left eye.
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  #65  
Old 07-19-2013, 6:23 PM
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Most of my rifles have iron sights. Unfortunately, my eyes have degraded to the point that shooting small groups is best described as "optimistic". Bifocals suck for shooting.

Until a few years ago, I had a pickup truck with a 3-speed manual trans, shifted from the column. AKA "3 on the tree".

It was great because nobody ever wanted to borrow it, due to the fact that nobody knew how to drive it. I do miss that truck.
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Old 07-19-2013, 8:16 PM
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Most of my rifles have iron sights. Unfortunately, my eyes have degraded to the point that shooting small groups is best described as "optimistic". Bifocals suck for shooting.

Until a few years ago, I had a pickup truck with a 3-speed manual trans, shifted from the column. AKA "3 on the tree".

It was great because nobody ever wanted to borrow it, due to the fact that nobody knew how to drive it. I do miss that truck.
I'm with you as my eyesight is blurry at best. With bifocal distance to the target is clear but front sight is blurry so I just guesstimate where the mass of the front blade is and put that on the clear target and hope for the best.

That brings back memories when I learned to drive on my Dad's 1974 Nova with 3 on the tree. That was the only car I drove for a while therefore did not know automatic transmission existed till I was asked to drive someones car. I said sure and when I got in the driver's seat I proceeded to what I thought was a 3 on the tree and almost broke the automatic shifter when I tried to find 1st gear. Then I really panicked when I looked for three skinny pedals on the floor and all I saw was one skinny and one fat one. I did not drove that car that day. When I was active duty stationed in Japan, they had these little Toyota pick up with small turbo diesel engine with 5 on the tree. I loved driving them pick up as it brought lots of memories from my younger years.
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Old 07-19-2013, 8:34 PM
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Shot iron 1964-2006 and still do at times, but old eyes get tired and that takes some of the fun out of shooting. I was 26 when I set a state record with iron sights that still stands, but now I just shoot against myself...and like glass.
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Old 07-19-2013, 8:37 PM
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Please share the record with us. Thats impressive.
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  #69  
Old 07-19-2013, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
Any sighting system is subject to failure. I've seen numerous iron sight systems that are loose, worn out, bent, broken, made incorrectly, installed incorrectly. A very small amount of movement in the front or rear sight will cause a group to grow significantly at a distance. I like iron sights too but a competent shooter should be skilled with all types of sighting systems.
Yep...
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Old 07-20-2013, 3:20 AM
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While I agree that some people are quick to put a scope on everything, this is not an excuse to berate Calgunners who are asking for scope advice to put on a modern rifle. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this topic but it seems like every time I ask about advice for optics, someone posts up something about how I should learn to shoot irons...

I was in the military for 6 years, and was decorated as an expert marksman. I think I've figured out how to shoot irons. So what if I want to put a scope on a .22, or a deer rifle to get a more humane shot placement?

For the record: Not one of my C&Rs currently has a scope on it. The only ones I would consider mounting one on are my Argy mauser (which was "Bubba'd" prior to me owning it), my M48 (and only if I use the correct Zrak mounts/optics) and MAYBE my K31 (using the "no drill" mount). On the K31, I don't really see the point, though. That thing is a tack-driver with irons!
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  #71  
Old 07-20-2013, 9:26 AM
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I want to scope my moderns stuff, but all my C&Rs are as issued. I wouldn't dare drill and tap a scope mount into any of them
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Old 07-20-2013, 9:31 AM
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Folks if you all still want to shoot iron sights but the eyes are not so good, go to an optometrist and get shooting glasses, for eye protection, with prescription that are designed for shooting.

For starters, google hyperfocal distance, Randolph Engineering, Knobloch frames, and Bob Jones shooting glasses.
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  #73  
Old 07-20-2013, 12:35 PM
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"are you a dying breed, soon to be extinct?"
Since my birthday gift T shirt says " made in 1933, worn but still runs"
I expect that "extinct" is not too many years away :-)
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Old 07-20-2013, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post

For the record: Not one of my C&Rs currently has a scope on it. The only ones I would consider mounting one on are my Argy mauser (which was "Bubba'd" prior to me owning it), my M48 (and only if I use the correct Zrak mounts/optics) and MAYBE my K31 (using the "no drill" mount). On the K31, I don't really see the point, though. That thing is a tack-driver with irons!
Why not? I have a K31 sans scope so I put one on another K31 with a clamp on mount. I have a bunch of #4 Lee Enfields without scope so I put one on a #4 with a non drill and tap mount. The rifles aren't altered and I can see to shoot well at very long distances.

But the best thing is we can all do what makes us most satisfied with our rifles.

I used to be in the 'no scopes for me' group until I got older.
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Old 07-21-2013, 1:14 PM
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Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
Why not?
For me, there's no point. I'm not going to take it hunting, I'm not doing competitions, and it's accurate enough for my needs with iron sights. I don't blame anyone who does, though. No drill mounts are cool...
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Old 07-21-2013, 4:40 PM
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I do both.. I have more scoped rifles than iron sight rifles, but my garand shoots great and it has irons. The range I go to doesn't even allow irons at the 200 yard range, but I am friends with the range safety officer and he lets me shoot irons there anyway because he knows I can actually hit the target.
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Old 07-21-2013, 5:01 PM
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Love iron sights but , I have had to face the fact that I can't see those 1911A1 sights any more. There are some intermediate size sights for pistols I can still see. Battle rifle irons, hunting rifles glass.
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Old 07-21-2013, 5:14 PM
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The last 2 years my eyes have been giving me grief w/ irons. Im degrading NS and FS visual accuity, making shooting past 300M w/irons a problem. I have optics on several rifles now, and find myself needing them at longer ranges. (sigh....). Sucks getting old
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Old 07-21-2013, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by surplus-addict View Post
I HATE scopes, they're just cumbersome, expensive, finicky, and screw with my spacial awareness.
Wh do people use them for sub 250 yard work? I've never understood that.
A good set of irons will do it just as well as a scope, and better than a scope sometimes!
Gosh! I guess the military and LEOs have been doing it all wrong then. Better tell my LE Entry team LT (sniper) to ditch his NF and get a set of irons.
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Old 07-21-2013, 6:04 PM
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I've always loved shooting irons and have been teaching my boys on irons. They can be as accurate scopes. I recall many times in my younger days out shooting friends and their scoped rifles with my irons. I even put I think it was a Lyman aperture on my sporterized 03A3 and hunted with it. It was already d&t'd but I liked irons that much.

I ended up putting a scope back on it as once hunting trying to take a shot in low light couldn't see the front sight or the target. And that's what scopes do better than irons: gather light. So my deer rifle has a scope. Everything else is irons. Love my garands and swede Mauser and enfield. I have tech sights on my 10/22 and put a marbles bullseye sight on my old winchester 67.

Too many newer shooters and don't have the appreciation for good shooting techniques. It's more about society at large. Looking for quick easy solutions without hard work.
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