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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-16-2013, 2:13 PM
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Default First Unitarian v. NSA (Privacy & Gun Registry)

First Unitarian Church of L.A., et al. v. NSA, et al.
Issue: Lawfulness of Patriot Act, privacy, 1A, illegal fed gun registry.

Current Status as of 11/24/2013: Plaintiff's Motion for Summary Adjudication / Partial Summary Judgment regarding Telephone Program is pending, hearing set for 2/7/2014.

11/15/2013-11/18/2013 - Various Amici Curiae motions filed.
11/6/2013 - Plaintiff's MSA - Telephone Program Unlawful.
10/9/2013 - Defendant's Motion to Stay Denied.
9/10/2013 - First Amended Complaint filed.
7/16/2013 - Complaint (attached).

Trial Court: N.D. Cal.
Case No.: 3:13-cv-03287
Docket: http://ia601802.us.archive.org/21/it...20.docket.html


News Article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3605104.html

Similar case from District of D.C.: Klayman v. Obama, 13-0851-RJL.
12/16/2013 opinion holding NSA program unlawful.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 1st Unitarian Church v NSA.pdf (1.66 MB, 58 views)

Last edited by fizux; 12-16-2013 at 9:01 PM.. Reason: Added complaint
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Old 07-16-2013, 2:22 PM
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Default Of course they have an illegal gun registry

Everything having to do with the Bill Of Rights seems to be open to their interpretation.
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Old 07-16-2013, 2:26 PM
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The government will ultimately win this case.
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Old 07-16-2013, 2:28 PM
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Sick 'em!
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Old 07-16-2013, 2:40 PM
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Default Calguns Foundation Mentioned on the Radio for Working With Other Civil Rights Groups

Just listening to the radio while making a parts list for a job. CGF was mentioned in the news flash on KGO as working with the Electronic Frontier Foundation against illegal government surveillance.

We are a civil rights group and this is how we get ahead. Great job.
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I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 07-16-2013, 3:00 PM
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Apparently the Government has decided that it's for my own good to give up some of my rights in order to be more secure.
They neglected to ask me about that.
NO!!!
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Old 07-16-2013, 3:12 PM
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Time for the political center and center-left to wake up to whom they helped elect.
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Old 07-16-2013, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rossi357 View Post
Apparently the Government has decided that it's for my own good to give up some of my rights in order to be more secure.
They neglected to ask me about that.
NO!!!
Actually they did. Pretty much all the NSA "abuses" exposed by Snowden were duly authorized by Federal legislation including the USA PATRIOT Act, which was passed by the House on a 357 to 66 vote; and by 98 to 1 in the Senate.

Everyone seemed to be all in favor at the time, except the sponsors of the Benjamin Franklin True Patriot Act, the spoilsports.
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
Actually they did. Pretty much all the NSA "abuses" exposed by Snowden were duly authorized by Federal legislation including the USA PATRIOT Act, which was passed by the House on a 357 to 66 vote; and by 98 to 1 in the Senate.

Everyone seemed to be all in favor at the time, except the sponsors of the Benjamin Franklin True Patriot Act, the spoilsports.
To be fair, the members of Congress who voted for the legislation likely didn't understand the role of the FISA court was to just rubber stamp anything and everything the government wants. If the FISA court worked as intended, and wasn't just there to come up with some legal sounding way to approve everything while pretending the Bill of Rights has been rescinded, then the legislation wouldn't have ended up being nearly as bad as it has.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:13 PM
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To be fair, the members of Congress who voted for the legislation likely didn't understand the role of the FISA court was to just rubber stamp anything and everything the government wants.
Not enough of a rubber stamp for the Bush Administration, which dispensed with the FISA court and operated outside of the law for most of the last decade. I don't recall much outrage around here when this was exposed by the New York Times in December 2005.

Remember what Pogo said?
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:22 PM
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Wow, no comment on the strange bedfellows CGF and ACLU make?

Although I don't find it strange personally, there used to be such vitriol for the ACLU on this board I find the silence deafening.
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kodemonkey View Post
Wow, no comment on the strange bedfellows CGF and ACLU make?

Although I don't find it strange personally, there used to be such vitriol for the ACLU on this board I find the silence deafening.
From the PuffHost article, I surmised that it was two different lawsuits; ACLU last month, and CGF threw in with EFF today.

I tried to find the complaint, but it looks like it is not up in ECF; I will keep checking PACER and update the OP accordingly.
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kodemonkey View Post
Wow, no comment on the strange bedfellows CGF and ACLU make?

Although I don't find it strange personally, there used to be such vitriol for the
ACLU on this board I find the silence deafening.
CGF is much more practically nuanced than many board posters here. CGF understands that civil rights are at least somewhat tied together. [Other nonanalytical gunnies can't get the idea that Roe v Wade actually helps gun rights, etc.]

The vitriol is really just from the far right goons who don't care about women, gays, or even other-than-gun rights (i.e, "kill'em'all-let-god-sort-em-out" copsucker types who don't see a need for the 4th Amendment.)

As Gene Hoffman says, "The left hates guns, but the right hates rights."

Remember many 'police state' encroachments came from "law & order" statist Reeps. (Patriot Act!) That just gets magnified by Dems who like to populate such infrastructures with staff that vote for benefits.

And this is from someone (me) who is a bit hard-line on certain conservative matter that tie in with liberty.
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fizux View Post
From the PuffHost article, I surmised that it was two different lawsuits; ACLU last month, and CGF threw in with EFF today.

I tried to find the complaint, but it looks like it is not up in ECF; I will keep checking PACER and update the OP accordingly.
See https://www.eff.org/node/75009.

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Old 07-16-2013, 4:57 PM
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Thanks, Wildhawker. Its always better to have the straight scoop rather than relying on RumInt from the HP.
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Old 07-16-2013, 5:00 PM
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Thanks, Wildhawker. Its always better to have the straight scoop rather than relying on RumInt from the HP.
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Old 07-16-2013, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
CGF is much more practically nuanced than many board posters here. CGF understands that civil rights are at least somewhat tied together. [Other nonanalytical gunnies can't get the idea that Roe v Wade actually helps gun rights, etc.]

The vitriol is really just from the far right goons who don't care about women, gays, or even other-than-gun rights (i.e, "kill'em'all-let-god-sort-em-out" copsucker types who don't see a need for the 4th Amendment.)

As Gene Hoffman says, "The left hates guns, but the right hates rights."

Remember many 'police state' encroachments came from "law & order" statist Reeps. (Patriot Act!) That just gets magnified by Dems who like to populate such infrastructures with staff that vote for benefits.

And this is from someone (me) who is a bit hard-line on certain conservative matter that tie in with liberty.
I agree with this 100%. I also think the lawsuit will fail in court. The acts of government in this case were and have been legal for years now due to 9/11.

The data received (Snowden style) is pretty raw in form and if the checks and balances are in fact in place to protect that data from misuse by government, the courts will not deny the government. Especially if this is being done correctly and proved to be used for National Security. JMHO whether its liked or not.

Its gonna be a tough road to hoe to try an overturn a law pushed by Republicans and passed and then continued to be driven by the Democrats who just put a new set of tires on it.

Last edited by taperxz; 07-16-2013 at 5:08 PM..
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Old 07-16-2013, 5:24 PM
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"Politics makes strange bedfellows"

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Old 07-16-2013, 5:23 PM
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Heard it on 1070 as well...


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Old 07-16-2013, 5:29 PM
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Dupe.........

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=793883


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Old 07-16-2013, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
Not enough of a rubber stamp for the Bush Administration, which dispensed with the FISA court and operated outside of the law for most of the last decade. I don't recall much outrage around here when this was exposed by the New York Times in December 2005.

Remember what Pogo said?
Maybe you don't remember the outrage in 2005 cause your join date is in 2008?
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Old 07-16-2013, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
I agree with this 100%. I also think the lawsuit will fail in court. The acts of government in this case were and have been legal for years now due to 9/11.

The data received (Snowden style) is pretty raw in form and if the checks and balances are in fact in place to protect that data from misuse by government, the courts will not deny the government. Especially if this is being done correctly and proved to be used for National Security. JMHO whether its liked or not.

Its gonna be a tough road to hoe to try an overturn a law pushed by Republicans and passed and then continued to be driven by the Democrats who just put a new set of tires on it.
A lot of things were legal for a very long time, yet no longer legal today....
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Old 07-16-2013, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
To be fair, the members of Congress who voted for the legislation likely didn't understand the role of the FISA court was to just rubber stamp anything and everything the government wants. If the FISA court worked as intended, and wasn't just there to come up with some legal sounding way to approve everything while pretending the Bill of Rights has been rescinded, then the legislation wouldn't have ended up being nearly as bad as it has.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
The very author, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, claims that the Patriot Act is being abused. That is was never meant for the data collection being done now.
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Old 07-16-2013, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
CGF is much more practically nuanced than many board posters here. CGF understands that civil rights are at least somewhat tied together. [Other nonanalytical gunnies can't get the idea that Roe v Wade actually helps gun rights, etc.]

The vitriol is really just from the far right goons who don't care about women, gays, or even other-than-gun rights (i.e, "kill'em'all-let-god-sort-em-out" copsucker types who don't see a need for the 4th Amendment.)

As Gene Hoffman says, "The left hates guns, but the right hates rights."

Remember many 'police state' encroachments came from "law & order" statist Reeps. (Patriot Act!) That just gets magnified by Dems who like to populate such infrastructures with staff that vote for benefits.

And this is from someone (me) who is a bit hard-line on certain conservative matter that tie in with liberty.
Neither side cares about the Bill of Rights or our rights unless it fits with their political agenda and can be exploited to raise money and votes.

Many here do not support Snowden, and yet this suit probably has its best chance of success because of him. It has been common knowledge the NSA has been doing this for years but knowing and proving are two different things.

The crowd that says I have nothing to hide so let the government do this need to spend time researching history, especially the rise of Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. They collected all the information they could get and then when it was convenient it was used against you.
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Old 07-16-2013, 8:12 PM
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Was also mentioned on NPR.
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Old 07-16-2013, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
Actually they did. Pretty much all the NSA "abuses" exposed by Snowden were duly authorized by Federal legislation including the USA PATRIOT Act, which was passed by the House on a 357 to 66 vote; and by 98 to 1 in the Senate. [...]
How are those Reps and Dems working out for you?



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Old 07-16-2013, 10:10 PM
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WHAT!

Wow.

EFF + CGF + ACLU

Pure awesome.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:10 PM
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Thank you, CGF.
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Old 07-17-2013, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRangel View Post
The very author, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, claims that the Patriot Act is being abused. That is was never meant for the data collection being done now.
Well, what a surprise, he created it and voted for it after all. So once it all goes PREDICTABLY pear-shaped, he comes out and washes his hands of it and bleats, "But that's not what we meant!"

When you hand over sweeping powers to the Executive Branch with little scope of public oversight and even less regard for essential civil liberties, just what the hell did you expect was going to happen?
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Old 07-17-2013, 7:22 AM
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I am glad this has come about. Obviously I want CGF to win but at the very least I want Americans to hear the conversation and know what our Government is doing to it's own people. I am sure that for everything we know that they are doing to spy on us there are 5 things we don't know. I go on the notion that if they have the ability (technology) then they are using it on there own people. I call it soft tyranny.
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Old 07-17-2013, 7:32 AM
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Awesome! Way to go CGF!
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Old 07-17-2013, 8:02 AM
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Time to donate to CGF again... lawsuits cost money. https://www.calgunsfoundation.org/donate/
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Old 07-17-2013, 8:24 AM
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Additionally, Franklin Armory and Green Peace are plaintiffs. Makes for strange bedfellows. But hey, whatever works!
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Old 07-17-2013, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
"kill'em'all-let-god-sort-em-out" copsucker types who don't see a need for the 4th Amendment.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kodemonkey View Post
Wow, no comment on the strange bedfellows CGF and ACLU make?

Although I don't find it strange personally, there used to be such vitriol for the ACLU on this board I find the silence deafening.
ACLU Hawaii has helped the Hawaii Defense Foundation on numerous occasions. We don't have to agree on guns, to understand that there are other rights that we can still work together to improve.

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Old 07-17-2013, 12:42 PM
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I am so proud of CGF today. I've dreamed about CGF and the EFF working together on something for as long as I've known about them. This is so full of win.
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Old 07-17-2013, 4:37 PM
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I am extremely slow on the uptake (nonanalytical gunny), please point out how Roe VS Wade put teeth into the 2A?

Last edited by 1recluse; 07-17-2013 at 4:43 PM..
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Old 07-17-2013, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kodemonkey View Post
Wow, no comment on the strange bedfellows CGF and ACLU make?

Although I don't find it strange personally, there used to be such vitriol for the ACLU on this board I find the silence deafening.
I remember as a young man cursing the ACLU for the way they could bring progress to a halt. Now I find myself applauding them.
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Old 07-17-2013, 4:55 PM
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I am extremely slow on the uptake (nonanalytical gunny), please point out how Roe VS Wade put teeth into the 2A?
Generally, it has to do with how much a State can regulate vs. restrict vs. prohibit a right from being exercised. For example, a recent abortion decision (Isaacson v. Horne) was the basis of a 28j letter filed in Richards v. Prieto. The letter is attached to Gray Peterson's post here:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=770223

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Old 07-17-2013, 5:27 PM
1recluse 1recluse is offline
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Thank You Fizux. I will read it. Maybe I am like others who think I have a handle on an issue and more information makes me understand I don't understand.

Live Well
Ken
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