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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 07-22-2014, 9:20 PM
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Default Dry fire, timers, shooting with both eyes = bad

Interesting AAR about a Combat Focus Shooting class.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....s-Shooting-AAR
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  #2  
Old 07-22-2014, 9:48 PM
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My answer to "both eyes = bad" God gave me 2 eyes for a reason
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:52 AM
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Be wary of anyone selling their own brand of shooting. I've heard his training referred to as "Gun Scientology" before. Israeli Tactical Point Shooting, Combat Focus Shooting, Center Axis Relock, etc.

For some reason it seems the more low-rent instructors insist on power-stroking/slingshotting versus thumbing the slide.
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Old 07-23-2014, 9:37 AM
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While I'm not an fan of the I.C.E. techniques, I have to say that the reviewers posting reveals his lack of experience or misguided expectations of training.

That he would take it as a first formal course speaks volumes. I would never advocate taking a "fighting" course before taking a "shooting" course
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Old 07-23-2014, 9:52 AM
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Well of course without a scored target or timed run you can't measure any improvement. So if closing one eye is good, why not just close both eyes and imagine how much better you would be. I don't like to run, that's why I have a gun....

Agree on bringing the gun back though. Even when I shoot in competition, I know it's slower, but I can't break the habit. Don't want any bad people getting my gun.
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leethe4th View Post
Agree on bringing the gun back though. Even when I shoot in competition, I know it's slower,
It isn't slower.

If the targets aren't right next to each other, it is faster between shots to bring the gun back in and punching it out again. Swinging between targets results in either slow swinging or over swinging
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:35 AM
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I think you're splitting hairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
That he would take it as a first formal course speaks volumes. I would never advocate taking a "fighting" course before taking a "shooting" course
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:18 AM
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We are not all the same. There is no one style fits all shooters. I can't shoot with both eyes open, I get two sight pictures. Neither of my eyes are dominant. I shoot with one eye closed. Does not matter wich one.
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
It isn't slower.

If the targets aren't right next to each other, it is faster between shots to bring the gun back in and punching it out again. Swinging between targets results in either slow swinging or over swinging
Yes, but I see the Grand Masters do it, so I know it must be faster. They always keep their gun out front.
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Old 07-23-2014, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leethe4th View Post
Yes, but I see the Grand Masters do it, so I know it must be faster. They always keep their gun out front.
I'll clarify my statement.

I was thinking of folks who track their sights between targets. You have to move your eyes and let your body/gun/sights follow.

Since I'm already relaxed to allow faster movement, taking that focus off the target I've just broken a shot on and shifting the focus to the next target brings my gun in a bit...it doesn't come all the way into the Count 3 position.

During large transitions 90 degrees +, you'll see GMs compress their arms during the shift. It makes the movement faster...like an ice skater spinning...and prevents over swinging
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2014, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
I think you're splitting hairs.
And that is why many folks who don't have fundamental shooting skills attend more advanced shooting courses...they don't understand the difference.

It doesn't help that some schools cater to these students by slowing down the pace of instruction.

I think having fundamental skills allows a student to benefit the most at a tactical/fighting handgun course...because they don't have to worry about a good draw, correct trigger control, optimal magazine changes or shooting on the move...where they can learn more advanced engagement techniques and efficient movement.

I consider fundamental skills to include:
1. all shots in a 6" circle, at 5-7 yards, at a rate of 3 shots a second
2. 2 second draw from signal to center hit as above
3. 2.5 second reload from shot to shot as above
4. same accuracy while moving laterally across targets
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2014, 6:00 AM
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Rarely is it faster to bring the handgun back into the body then to leave it extended when making transitions from target to target unless movement is involved. Adding additional unnecessary movement to necessary movement costs time and adds the possibility of errors.

Top shooters tend to 'drive' the gun by making it follow their eyes. First the eyes move then the gun moves to index on the point of eye focus. Think in terms of driving a car. As you go thru a corner you are looking ahead at where you want to go then you steer or drive the car to follow.

As far as shooting with both eyes open, the advantage is huge. The additional vision allows your brain to pre-stage its next movement or action already having conformed the next visual reference point to drive the gun towards. There are several training techniques that can shorten the learning curve of controlling which eye controls the sight picture.
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Old 07-24-2014, 6:27 AM
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I've read the post. Its 2-3minutes wasted time. For the guy that went to the class, what a wasted $350. or say $450 who paid in full.

I don't feel like he went to train for competition though. So maybe the instructors combat experience taught him to shoot with one eye, and no need for dry fire and timer.

For practical shooting, there are better suited instructors. no combat experience needed.
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Old 07-24-2014, 9:33 AM
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Shooting with both eyes open seems like it would be even more important in combat/self defense style of shooting. Seeing the next cardboard target in a match in your side vision is very helpful, seeing the bad guys partner coming at you with a knife from the side would seem life saving.

Besides, anyone who uses a term like 'Power Stroking' to describe a mechanical skill like racking/releasing the slide is more interested in marketing then teaching.
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  #15  
Old 07-24-2014, 10:53 AM
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I stopped reading at

Quote:
One Eye Closed: Rob gave a long lecture complete with illustration on why it’s undesirable and even impossible to accurately fire with both eyes open.
Anyone who paid for this class should get a refund.
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  #16  
Old 07-28-2014, 9:11 AM
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Pincus sucks. Who cares? He can't shoot any better than a C class uspsa shooter. Opinion invalid.
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Old 07-29-2014, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaeOne3345 View Post
Pincus sucks. Who cares? He can't shoot any better than a C class uspsa shooter. Opinion invalid.
No, D Class. He thinks it stands for Defensive and C Class means competition. And everyone knows that what you learn in competition will get you killed in the real world! Especially the part about shooting much faster and much more accurately, you are supposed to shoot slower and miss alot. Could be that one eye thing, no depth perception, have to walk the rounds in. And don't forget to power stroke your gun when it jams. Must be because they don't case gage the ammo or chamber check it, so jams will happen.
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Old 07-29-2014, 7:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leethe4th View Post
No, D Class. He thinks it stands for Defensive and C Class means competition. And everyone knows that what you learn in competition will get you killed in the real world! Especially the part about shooting much faster and much more accurately, you are supposed to shoot slower and miss alot. Could be that one eye thing, no depth perception, have to walk the rounds in. And don't forget to power stroke your gun when it jams. Must be because they don't case gage the ammo or chamber check it, so jams will happen.
Sounds like you went through LAPD's academy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Sounds like you went through LAPD's academy.
True, but there's a few who shoot competition, notably the guys that win Police Action Pistol , and local USPSA/3 gun matches. They are fast.

2013 United States Police and Fire Championships
1st Teams taking Master, A class, B class
1st Overall Individual LAPD


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Old 07-29-2014, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leethe4th View Post
True, but there's a few who shoot competition, notably the guys that win Police Action Pistol , and local USPSA/3 gun matches. They are fast.

2013 United States Police and Fire Championships
1st Teams taking Master, A class, B class
1st Overall Individual LAPD


http://www.uspfc.org/results.html
Yea, my dad shot PPC matches back in the 70's and 80's so, I know there are LEOs who can actually shoot. But, they are usually shooters who become LEOs not the ones who go through the academy and think that the little training they get there makes them expert marksman. Think about how many rounds LAPD fires in a typical shoot out and how many actually find their intended target. The academy must teach their recruits to miss on purpose. Right?
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hostetter View Post
Besides, anyone who uses a term like 'Power Stroking' to describe a mechanical skill like racking/releasing the slide is more interested in marketing then teaching.
My guess is he advocates "power stroking" in may instances, gun related and not...
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:38 AM
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Rob Pincus also likes to talk crap about guys who carry compact 1911. He keeps saying he's never seen one run an entire class without a malfunction. Well my carry gun won't ever see more than 2 mags through it. So why do I care if it won't run 500 rounds without cleaning? I only care if it will run two mags between cleanings without malfunctioning.
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Old 08-03-2014, 3:04 PM
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In the name of being different, as in better, some firearms outfits, and/or trainers, resort to all sorts of shenanigans and the uninitiated is none wiser.
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