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  #41  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Is it just your barrels you consider anemic? Which barrels do you sell are anemic and which aren't?
Most cases holding less than 40gr of powder are anemic.
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  #42  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:23 PM
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Most cases holding less than 40gr of powder are anemic.
Interesting opinion coming from a guy wanting to sell AR barrels. You'll never have my business and probably most reading this as well.
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  #43  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Interesting opinion coming from a guy wanting to sell AR barrels. You'll never have my business and probably most reading this as well.
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  #44  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:32 PM
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Interesting opinion coming from a guy wanting to sell AR barrels.
I don't SELL AR barrels.
I only work on them.
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  #45  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:56 PM
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All things being equal a 6.5 gets a higher HITS score than a 6.8SPC because the 6.8SPC does not cause as much damage to a game because of its short stubby shape and lower BC compared to a 6.5mm bullet.
I don't see how this could be true if all things are equal . At some point some part of the equation most no longer be equal for the smaller bullet to do more damage then the bigger one . I'm assuming thats velocity . The higher BC should give you higher velocity down range and that in tern should give you deeper penetration and expansion . I would not have an issue if the 6.8 was hitting the target at the same velocity as the 6.5

My math and yes I know it's general , shows the 16" Grendel will catch up to the 6.8 right about 400yds, till then the the 6.8 has it beat by velocity and energy transferred . At 400yds and really anything over 300 I would be stepping up to the 308 or a like . Thats just me though .

EDIT : while I was writing this I see you all have posted more . I was enjoying the debate but it appears to have turned in a way thats never healthy . Just because a guy is not an expert in exterior and terminal ballistic does not mean he can't be a good gunsmith . Changing the equations to suit your argument is never helpfully in a honest debate . I have always been going off your first comparisons . You don't get to change bullet weights powder charger and throw in what most guys get out of there hand loads just to make your argument work .

Lets keep the gloves up fellas .
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  #46  
Old 07-06-2013, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
6.8SPC does not cause as much damage to a game because of its short stubby shape and lower BC compared to a 6.5mm bullet. That said HITS does not factor in the TYPE of bullet so when doing comparisons you should use the same type of bullet to take out that variable.
So what you are saying is that a SMALLER hole is more effective at killing game than a bigger one? And the HITS score being so much lower you have decided ignore why? (For those of you playing at home, HITS is a Hornday non-dimensional energy at impact calculator).

I am glad you finally noticed that grendle does not get loaded to 6.8 velocities. You have the answer to WHY no factory grendle ammo reaches those speeds, it is on the tip of your brain, it's ballistic coefficient. If both calibers are operating from the same pressure the larger diameter caliber has more area acted on and therefore more force applied, and accelerates faster (acceleration = force/mass ). It's like the opposite side of that same coin when drag slows down a larger diameter bullet bullet more quickly than a slower one. Major over simplification, but you get the idea.

Add to that the fact that according to Randel, grendel cases can't be loaded to 6.8 pressures, and you start to see why more energy gets dumped into tearing game up by 6.8 than by 6.5.

There is a reason why 6.8 has growing market share, while 6.5 not so much. It's because 6.8 is a more effective round on game until you get out past the point at which it is time to transition to .308.

6.5 Grendle is the Betamax of the AR cartridge world, it's only better on paper. And like Betamax the next several decades we are going to here about how it was a superior technology so far ahead of its time that it was misunderstood by the masses, understood only by the esoteric few who TRULY understood the advantages it offered.

Advantages like putting SMALLER holes in game animals.
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  #47  
Old 07-06-2013, 6:44 AM
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Lets assume a velocity of 2250 and a bullet grain of 120 when we impact for both a 6.8 and 6.5. Lets both run those numbers through the HITS calculator to see which one at that velocity will better kill a medium sized game animal.

Here's the results
6.5=664
6.8=602

As you see all things being equal the 6.5mm does more damage than the 6.8. Play with it yourself and change up the numbers.

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 6:50 AM..
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  #48  
Old 07-06-2013, 6:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Metal God View Post
I don't see how this could be true if all things are equal . At some point some part of the equation most no longer be equal for the smaller bullet to do more damage then the bigger one . I'm assuming thats velocity . The higher BC should give you higher velocity down range and that in tern should give you deeper penetration and expansion . I would not have an issue if the 6.8 was hitting the target at the same velocity as the 6.5

My math and yes I know it's general , shows the 16" Grendel will catch up to the 6.8 right about 400yds, till then the the 6.8 has it beat by velocity and energy transferred . At 400yds and really anything over 300 I would be stepping up to the 308 or a like . Thats just me though .

EDIT : while I was writing this I see you all have posted more . I was enjoying the debate but it appears to have turned in a way thats never healthy . Just because a guy is not an expert in exterior and terminal ballistic does not mean he can't be a good gunsmith . Changing the equations to suit your argument is never helpfully in a honest debate . I have always been going off your first comparisons . You don't get to change bullet weights powder charger and throw in what most guys get out of there hand loads just to make your argument work .

Lets keep the gloves up fellas .
I didn't change anything????? Not sure what your talking about??
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  #49  
Old 07-06-2013, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Metal God View Post
I don't see how this could be true if all things are equal . At some point some part of the equation most no longer be equal for the smaller bullet to do more damage then the bigger one . I'm assuming thats velocity . The higher BC should give you higher velocity down range and that in tern should give you deeper penetration and expansion . I would not have an issue if the 6.8 was hitting the target at the same velocity as the 6.5

My math and yes I know it's general , shows the 16" Grendel will catch up to the 6.8 right about 400yds, till then the the 6.8 has it beat by velocity and energy transferred . At 400yds and really anything over 300 I would be stepping up to the 308 or a like . Thats just me though .

EDIT : while I was writing this I see you all have posted more . I was enjoying the debate but it appears to have turned in a way thats never healthy . Just because a guy is not an expert in exterior and terminal ballistic does not mean he can't be a good gunsmith . Changing the equations to suit your argument is never helpfully in a honest debate . I have always been going off your first comparisons . You don't get to change bullet weights powder charger and throw in what most guys get out of there hand loads just to make your argument work .

Lets keep the gloves up fellas .
Lets see your math!! Recommend you use a ballistic calculator (they have free ones online) and not use assumptions on ballistics you've read on CALGUNS. Use numbers actually measured at the barrel. Run the numbers and you'll get real close to what i'm showing. Then take the numbers and run them throw the HITS calculator. The secret to understanding why the Grendel performs better is the BC. Don't forget longer grendel bullet goes into a tumble causing more damage.


Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 7:35 AM..
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  #50  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:11 AM
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Not entertaining at all. Worthless in fact as well boring,dead horse kicking,same-o same-o,what's the point,who cares, ect,ect. Didn't you get kicked out of the hunting forum for the same kind of self centered lets just argue type post's.....I believe so.
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  #51  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:34 AM
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And here I wanted a Grendel for a 1000 yard paper punch out of a AR15. Frankly there supposidly no other round that can be chambered in the AR15 that can perform better at those distances.

For me, being able to hunt with it would just be icing on the cake. I live in Southern Orange County as well, so I also doubt I'd shoot anything larger than a boar.

Sure there are probably better calibers for the job, but I like the AR platform and 6.5g will probably be the least expensive route to get a decent AR precision shooter at costs a lot cheaper than any other semi auto precision rifle.
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  #52  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:36 AM
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I did use the calc http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator I don't know how to make it show the numbers I imputed

Yes if you have the same muzzle velocity the 6.5 could be better but you don't and thats been my point from the start .

The 6.5 factory 123gr sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2250 cus of the shorter barrel .

The 6.8 factory 120 sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2460 .

Go ahead and plug those numbers in to your hit point calc and you will see the 6.8 will out perform the grendel out to and past 300yds

EDIT just did the hits calc with my numbers

6.8 = 691 H.I.T.S with 1640 ft.lbs of energy
6.5 = 697 H.I.T.S with 1380 ft.lbs of energy

At this point I'd like to know why Hornady is ignoring the extra 260 ft.lbs of evergy transfered at target and claiming the the smaller slower bullet will be more effective .
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  #53  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:46 AM
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I did use the calc http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator I don't know how to make it show the numbers I imputed

Yes if you have the same muzzle velocity the 6.5 could be better but you don't and thats been my point from the start .

The 6.5 factory 123gr sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2250 cus of the shorter barrel .

The 6.8 factory 120 sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2460 .

Go ahead and plug those numbers in to your hit point calc and you will see the 6.8 will out perform the grendel out to and past 300yds
Your 2250 number is fake for the Grendel. Go over to 65grendel.com and see what people are actually measuring from the barrel. The number is what i stated 2430 FPS at the barrel.
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  #54  
Old 07-06-2013, 7:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Your 2250 number is fake for the Grendel. Go over to 65grendel.com and see what people are actually measuring from the barrel. The number is what i stated 2430 FPS at the barrel.
Using Hornady's numbers (which you seem very fond of) the muzzle velocity from a 16" barrel is 2350 for the 6.5 and 2460 for the SPC.

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-SST/

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/
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  #55  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Lets assume a velocity of 2250 and a bullet grain of 120 when we impact for both a 6.8 and 6.5. Lets both run those numbers through the HITS calculator to see which one at that velocity will better kill a medium sized game animal.

Here's the results
6.5=664
6.8=602

As you see all things being equal the 6.5mm does more damage than the 6.8. Play with it yourself and change up the numbers.
Why are you just playing with the numbers? I don't think you get the point of that calculator. The velocities are MEASURED, not made up.

They don't go the same speed at the same bullet weight. 6.8 goes faster, because it has more area, the pressure provides more force and therefore more acceler... Never mind.

You are absolutely right, the Betamax, er I mean, 6.5 numbers can be artificially manipulated to outperform a non-existent under loaded 6.8 round. While you are at it, why keep the velocities even, why not just enter LOWER velocities for the 6.8? Then you would really win the argument.

6.5 isn't a mediocre and overpriced cartridge, its just misunderstood...
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You are "that guy". "That guy" that takes things to far and ruins them. Your thread is a pathetic, unoriginal copy. Don't be "that guy". I predict your thread goes away. You are "that guy".

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  #56  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:17 AM
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Go over to 65grendel.com and see what people are actually measuring from the barrel. The number is what i stated 2430 FPS at the barrel.
This was my point when saying you were changing things . No you did not change your numbers but you are using somebody elses hand load data . What do you think I would find if I went to a 6.8 spc forum and asked what they were pushing the 120gr bullets to . My guess is 2600fps+

you get to change your numbers with hand loads for the grendel but did not do the same for the 6.8 and that was my point about you changing the numbers to fit your argument .
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  #57  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:18 AM
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Originally Posted by vliberatore View Post
Using Hornady's numbers (which you seem very fond of) the muzzle velocity from a 16" barrel is 2350 for the 6.5 and 2460 for the SPC.

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-SST/

[URL="http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/"]http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/[/URL
Hey thanks for finding that!! I was using numbers measured by chronometers but with a trusted source of the data it will be less controversial. As you see using the more conservative figures for both rounds the Grendel still has more killing power from the barrel out.

Corrected Chart using Hornady Data for BOTH rounds



Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 2:47 PM..
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  #58  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:31 AM
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Using this data the turn over is at 225 yards where the Grendel takes over with velocity. The Grendel has more effect on target from the barrel according to HITS. In the spirit of full disclosure heres the ballistic calculator i used so you can check my work.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 8:37 AM..
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  #59  
Old 07-06-2013, 8:43 AM
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I like the numbers and they seem to mirror what I was getting . I had the velocity a little lower but still shows what I was seing . I'm still VERY interested why ft.lbs energy is no longer relevant when it comes to terminal ballistics. That BIG temp cavity you see in the video is from the ft.lbs of energy being tranfered to the gel . I'm going to need to do some more research on this subject . To be honest this was the first time I saw the H.I.T.S calc so like all old school shooters I'm not ready to call it law yet
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Old 07-06-2013, 8:47 AM
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I like the numbers and they seem to mirror what I was getting . I had the velocity a little lower but still shows what I was seing . I'm still VERY interested why ft.lbs energy is no longer relevant when it comes to terminal ballistics. That BIG temp cavity you see in the video is from the ft.lbs of energy being tranfered to the gel . I'm going to need to do some more research on this subject . To be honest this was the first time I saw the H.I.T.S calc so like all old school shooters I'm not ready to call it law yet
I think its relevant but it can be extrapolated from the velocity and grain and caliber and does not need to be independently entered into the equation.
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Old 07-06-2013, 9:12 AM
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I wish i had data for 18in or 20in barrels since i'm pretty sure thats what most of us are using for hunting. 16in doesn't have the reach and 24in is to long to lug around.

Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 9:16 AM..
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Xcountryrider View Post
Lets assume a velocity of 2250 and a bullet grain of 120 when we impact for both a 6.8 and 6.5. Lets both run those numbers through the HITS calculator to see which one at that velocity will better kill a medium sized game animal.

Here's the results
6.5=664
6.8=602

As you see all things being equal the 6.5mm does more damage than the 6.8. Play with it yourself and change up the numbers.
It's obvious that the HITS calculator is flawed if it gives more points to one of two bullets impacting the target with the same energy.
The calculator takes BC into account which is only a factor in exterior ballistics.
Only energy and bullet construction matter to internal ballistics.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-06-2013 at 10:08 AM..
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  #63  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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It's obvious that the HITS calculator is flawed if it gives more points to one of two bullets impacting the target with the same energy.
The calculator takes BC into account which is only a factor in exterior ballistics.
Only energy and bullet construction matter to internal ballistics.
Your overstating it. The short stubby 6.8 just does not do the damage as a long tumbling 6.5. Hornady has the best ballistics experts that study this issue day in an out. We're just a couple knuckle heads arguing on a forum.
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Old 07-06-2013, 11:38 AM
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How do you get the 123gr 6.5 sst will tumble and the 120gr 6.8 sst does not
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Old 07-06-2013, 12:03 PM
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How do you get the 123gr 6.5 sst will tumble and the 120gr 6.8 sst does not
I didn't say the short stubby 6.8 didn't tumble just that it does not have the same effect as a long round. The 6.5 puts a slightly smaller hole in the skin but does more damage on the inside where it counts.

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Old 07-06-2013, 12:07 PM
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You guys crack me up. You are arguing the merits of a 222 vs a 223. I'm sure the squirrel you hit won't know the difference even if there is some theoretical data that shows the 223 is much better on paper.
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Old 07-06-2013, 12:35 PM
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Dead is Dead not matter the bullet or BC if a person thinks one is a far superior killer over the other he is so very wrong! especially at distances below 500 yrds, oh wait a 6.8 is crap at that distance anyways so it's all moot.
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Old 07-06-2013, 1:38 PM
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I'm not arguing that the 6.8SPC isn't a good deer round it is. What i'm saying is that the old idea that the 6.8SPC is better in the short ranges and the 6.5 better in the long ranges is faulty. The data shows a different story. The 6.5 is just as effective and more right from the barrel when compared to a comparable 6.8SPC round. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and slightly larger caliber is not the whole story. The special characteristics of the 6.5 such as its longer bullet shape actually give it more lethal terminal ballistics. Higher than the caliber alone would suggest.




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Old 07-06-2013, 4:08 PM
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The argument for the 6.8SPC is not a ballistic argument its a logistics argument. Ammo, barrels, bolts are in stock all over. Not so for the Grendel. The Grendel has better ballistics but is hard to find parts and ammo.
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Old 07-06-2013, 4:27 PM
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I'm not arguing that the 6.8SPC isn't a good deer round it is. What i'm saying is that the old idea that the 6.8SPC is better in the short ranges and the 6.5 better in the long ranges is faulty. The data shows a different story. The 6.5 is just as effective and more right from the barrel when compared to a comparable 6.8SPC round. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and slightly larger caliber is not the whole story. The special characteristics of the 6.5 such as its longer bullet shape actually give it more lethal terminal ballistics. Higher than the caliber alone would suggest.
"Special Characteristics" make a 123 gr 6.5 Grendel traveling at 2430 feet per second for a HITS score of 753 "just as effective as" a 140 gr 6.8 round traveling at 2401 fps for a HITS score of 877?

What special characteristics, is it shineyer? Does it stay crunchy in milk longer? How the heck is 753 "as effective as" 877? Are those special properties the power ignore facts that don't fit into your preconceived notions? YOU brought up HITS numbers, now they don't matter unless you slow down heavier 6.8 rounds?

I'm not sure about the validity of HITS numbers as anything more than a nice way to ballpark terminal energy to make some very rough comparisons, but according to you a 15% decrease is "as effective as"? By that logic somebody who is 5' 2" is "as tall as" somebody who is 6', you might not notice the difference, but most people would.

Maybe the special properties are really high goldfish bowl pimp shoes so that nobody else notices the 15% difference?
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Old 07-06-2013, 4:36 PM
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The argument for the 6.8SPC is not a ballistic argument its a logistics argument. Ammo, barrels, bolts are in stock all over. Not so for the Grendel. The Grendel has better ballistics but is hard to find parts and ammo.
Remember when we talked about Betamax earlier? There is little supply for Grendel because there is little demand for Grendel. There is supply for 6.8 because there is demand for 6.8.
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Old 07-06-2013, 7:18 PM
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"Special Characteristics" make a 123 gr 6.5 Grendel traveling at 2430 feet per second for a HITS score of 753 "just as effective as" a 140 gr 6.8 round traveling at 2401 fps for a HITS score of 877?

What special characteristics, is it shineyer? Does it stay crunchy in milk longer? How the heck is 753 "as effective as" 877? Are those special properties the power ignore facts that don't fit into your preconceived notions? YOU brought up HITS numbers, now they don't matter unless you slow down heavier 6.8 rounds?

I'm not sure about the validity of HITS numbers as anything more than a nice way to ballpark terminal energy to make some very rough comparisons, but according to you a 15% decrease is "as effective as"? By that logic somebody who is 5' 2" is "as tall as" somebody who is 6', you might not notice the difference, but most people would.

Maybe the special properties are really high goldfish bowl pimp shoes so that nobody else notices the 15% difference?
Did you just compare a 140gr to a 123gr? Do you not know the Grendel can fire the same 140gr berger VLD bullet (see my earlier post on the subject)?

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Old 07-06-2013, 9:32 PM
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Old 07-06-2013, 9:43 PM
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A better hunting bullet for both rifles would be the 130gr Nosler Accubond. Its expands at 1300fps unlike the berger that requires 1800FPS. The other factor is how the Berger actually works. It penetrates a few inches and explodes into a tiny lead shrapnel grenade. This creates a devastating wound cavity but also peppers your meat with hundreds of tiny lead granules. Ingest those and risk lead poisoning. The Nosler retains its mass and does not explode.
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:49 PM
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We're just a couple knuckle heads arguing on a forum.
Speak for yourself, but don't speak for me.
I have Dr Gary Roberts number in my cell phone to refer to on matters of internal ballistics.
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Old 07-06-2013, 11:52 PM
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Did you just compare a 140gr to a 123gr? Do you not know the Grendel can fire the same 140gr berger VLD bullet (see my earlier post on the subject)?
No they are not the same 140 grain bullets, they are different diameters. As you stated earlier the ballistic coefficients are not the same, this means two things:

1. as you HAVE noted, the same weight 6.8 bullet is slowed down faster by the pressure of the air it travels through because it has more surface area to interact with the air for the given mass.

2. as you HAVE NOT noted, the 6.8 bullet has more surface area to interact with pressure generated in the gun barrel, and therefore has more force (surface area x pressure) acting on it, and it is accelerated faster when operating at the same pressures.

What this means is that at the muzzle, and for quite a ways thereafter, 6.8 moves faster, all other things being equal. Your touted ballistic coefficient is a major reason why Grendel is slower at the muzzle. That is the tradeoff that is required for better performance out in the .308 ranges, unfortunately the .308 family of cartridges is doing that better for less.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:09 AM
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What this means is that at the muzzle, and for quite a ways thereafter, 6.8 moves faster, all other things being equal.
all other things are not equal.
In order to create equal thrust on the bolt lugs, the 6.8 can be run at higher pressures than the 6.5 due to the 6.5 case being larger in diameter.

Play with my bolt thrust excel sheet that you will find here:
www.ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
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Old 07-07-2013, 7:30 AM
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No they are not the same 140 grain bullets, they are different diameters. As you stated earlier the ballistic coefficients are not the same, this means two things:

1. as you HAVE noted, the same weight 6.8 bullet is slowed down faster by the pressure of the air it travels through because it has more surface area to interact with the air for the given mass.

2. as you HAVE NOT noted, the 6.8 bullet has more surface area to interact with pressure generated in the gun barrel, and therefore has more force (surface area x pressure) acting on it, and it is accelerated faster when operating at the same pressures.

What this means is that at the muzzle, and for quite a ways thereafter, 6.8 moves faster, all other things being equal. Your touted ballistic coefficient is a major reason why Grendel is slower at the muzzle. That is the tradeoff that is required for better performance out in the .308 ranges, unfortunately the .308 family of cartridges is doing that better for less.
Good explanation of theory of why the 6.8 leaves the muzzle faster. Problem is thats not the whole story, this chart we have shows the Grendel more effective at the muzzle do to the fact that it does more damage at impact as expressed with HITS. So while the 6.8 is initially traveling faster what is does once it hits the deer is what counts and the 6.5 does more damage from the muzzle out.
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Old 07-07-2013, 7:32 AM
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Speak for yourself, but don't speak for me.
I have Dr Gary Roberts number in my cell phone to refer to on matters of internal ballistics.
Did the good Dr. tell you AR -15's were anemic?
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Old 07-07-2013, 7:42 AM
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Good explanation of theory of why the 6.8 leaves the muzzle faster. Problem is thats not the whole story, this chart we have shows the Grendel more effective at the muzzle do to the fact that it does more damage at impact as expressed with HITS. So while the 6.8 is initially traveling faster what is does once it hits the deer is what counts and the 6.5 does more damage from the muzzle out.
Did you really just say that? It's better at the muzzle because it's better at impact?
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