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  #1  
Old 06-14-2013, 6:08 PM
NulodPBall NulodPBall is offline
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Default 6.8mm vs. 77 gr .223 for hog hunting

I know this subject has probably been beat to death elsewhere but I was wondering:

What real-world experience have people had with shooting hogs with a

1. 6.8mm 110 gr round and
2. .223/5.56 77 or 75gr. round.

I like BTHP Hornadys and the energy numbers for both rounds are close enough to make me wonder.

I know many people will pick the 6.8mm just because it's a bigger round and is recommended in many areas over the .223 but I remember the one time I went pig hunting I did a one shot stop with my 6.8 (DRT) but two of my friends had to use three shots with 5.56. Now one friend might have had issues with his shot placement and the second friend was surprised (I did ask him before what would he do if I surprised a pig at close range) so I was just wondering if anyone had any real world (not just opinions) experience and observations they'd care to share.

The 6.8 is great but I'm thinking of consolidating "supply" lines with the way it's difficult to get cheap ammunition now-a-days and I was thinking of building a light rifle I could take hunting, but still use cheap ammo if I need to.

Yes, I know the .223/5.56 is not ideal for what most people hunt for but I was wondering what experiences other people have had.
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  #2  
Old 06-14-2013, 9:11 PM
1911man 1911man is offline
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Default 5.56

If the bullet is a good design, made for hunting it will work. Good shot placement is mandatory! Behind the ear or heart. A meat sow would be an ideal harvest, under 150#. Within a 100 yards. You meet all of those requirements, you should be eating some fine swine. IMHO.

Good luck and be safe.

Pics. Mandatory.

Last edited by 1911man; 06-14-2013 at 9:12 PM.. Reason: Info
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:51 PM
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Here we go again. I bagged a boar almost 3 weeks ago on public property with 223 55gr Barnes copper solid tsx. He only took one shot to the spine. Here is the link of my after action report if you are interested:

http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/...5-25-%28FHL%29

But if I had the choice to use the 6.8 I'd use it because, generally speaking, the bigger the cartridge the better. Happy hunting!
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  #4  
Old 06-15-2013, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 1911man View Post
If the bullet is a good design, made for hunting it will work. Good shot placement is mandatory!
This!

Those 77 grain SMKs and 75 grain Hornady BTHPs aren't hunting bullets.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2013, 3:42 AM
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I use a 6.8 and 85 gr barnes x work fine. One shot to neck at 100 yards 100 lb plus sow down. Never used a .223 and won't to light unless head shots. Going to try to use it for elk this year in New Mexico just got drawn. Going to use 110 gr bthp.
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  #6  
Old 06-16-2013, 11:15 AM
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Shouldnt use anything smaller than a .416 on those big ol california hogs. Ideally, you would want an RPG or some sort of tactical nuke, because those things are really, really big. Thats why you only get a couple of pig tags in california, those things are so big and bad that the state only wants you to risk your life a few times a year chasing those big ol california pigs. Trust the guys that know, every one of them will tell you to use the absoute biggest caliber availible... if you can get your hands on a tank... thats probably your best bet... because man, those california pigs are BIG.

Now those little itty bitty hogs we have in Georgia, they are fine to shoot with anything from a 17HMR to a .223 or even a 30-06. Theres many professional outfits that kill more pigs in one week than every member that posts in the hunting forum can legally kill in a season... and they use the 77SMKs in a .223. Of course those are these teeny tiny little mini pigs we have in Georgia so its not the same. If you look at some of the professional outfits, for example HogSwat (youtube them, they are awesome) and read thier website, they describe thier equipment and why they use what they do, but of course, again, they are shooting the micro mini Georgia hogs.

Did I mention that the pigs in California are HUGE...
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:54 AM
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No limit on hogs in CA except your freezer and wallet.

Caliber selection is mainly about margin of error, ethics, experience and competence, one or more of which are often in short supply, here and elsewhere.

Pigs in CA are indeed big, but you can always pick a smaller one to shoot.
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  #8  
Old 06-16-2013, 12:26 PM
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.223 lessens your odds vs.6.8 when it comes to likelihood of a one shot drop so case closed for me.
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2013, 1:41 PM
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The .223 seems to be for those who's hunting rifle selection is maxed out at .223, why else would you use it for pig (or deer).
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  #10  
Old 06-17-2013, 3:48 PM
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I was at Tejon the last WPMH and it's always the newbies that come in with the 223. It usually takes a few lost pigs before they learn it's not the all around caliber the salesman/buddy told them it was.

You get to choose the size of the pig to shoot? Get real.....most of the time you get a shot on one pig big or small.
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  #11  
Old 06-17-2013, 4:32 PM
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People decide to hunt meat pigs or trophy boars all the time. That's why guides can charge trophy fees. You see a sounder rooting around you don't have to draw down on Big Daddy

Pick your pig, pick your shot, it's all semantics
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Old 06-17-2013, 4:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zio707 View Post
The .223 seems to be for those who's hunting rifle selection is maxed out at .223, why else would you use it for pig (or deer).
Some people are just scarred of recoil.
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  #13  
Old 06-17-2013, 5:05 PM
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6.8SPC hands down.

I prefer the Hornaday VMax or SSA Hunter -

110gr is a no brainer for a more humane kill.....
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  #14  
Old 06-17-2013, 5:09 PM
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if those were the only cal choices you had i would go with the 6.8
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  #15  
Old 06-17-2013, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5shot View Post
Some people are just scarred of recoil.
I hadn't thought of that....
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  #16  
Old 06-17-2013, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MapleSyrupSmuggler View Post
Here we go again. I bagged a boar almost 3 weeks ago on public property with 223 55gr Barnes copper solid tsx. He only took one shot to the spine. Here is the link of my after action report if you are interested:

http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/...5-25-%28FHL%29

But if I had the choice to use the 6.8 I'd use it because, generally speaking, the bigger the cartridge the better. Happy hunting!
Hi MSS: Thanks for sharing your hunt and pics. Congrats on your first public land pig on iron sights.

Assuming your .308 was sighted in for 100 yards, I'm wondering if the steep ballistic curve got you. I tend to overestimate distance and up/down angles tend to make people shoot high also.

I probably would have chosen a heavier bullet than 55gr but you got meat on the table...and in one shot

I am expecting hill country shots so nothing over about 150 yards. I pick a 100 yard zero so if I guess right I never have to worry about shooting high and at most I should only have a point of impact 2 inches low.
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2013, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
This!

Those 77 grain SMKs and 75 grain Hornady BTHPs aren't hunting bullets.
Oh well...my pig dropped on one shot anyway
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2013, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I use a 6.8 and 85 gr barnes x work fine. One shot to neck at 100 yards 100 lb plus sow down. Never used a .223 and won't to light unless head shots. Going to try to use it for elk this year in New Mexico just got drawn. Going to use 110 gr bthp.
Thanks for the hunt experience info on the 6.8. Do you use the 85 gr. for the flatter trajectory? Better expansion?
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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  #19  
Old 06-17-2013, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Shouldnt use anything smaller than a .416 on those big ol california hogs. Ideally, you would want an RPG or some sort of tactical nuke, because those things are really, really big. Thats why you only get a couple of pig tags in california, those things are so big and bad that the state only wants you to risk your life a few times a year chasing those big ol california pigs. Trust the guys that know, every one of them will tell you to use the absoute biggest caliber availible... if you can get your hands on a tank... thats probably your best bet... because man, those california pigs are BIG.

Now those little itty bitty hogs we have in Georgia, they are fine to shoot with anything from a 17HMR to a .223 or even a 30-06. Theres many professional outfits that kill more pigs in one week than every member that posts in the hunting forum can legally kill in a season... and they use the 77SMKs in a .223. Of course those are these teeny tiny little mini pigs we have in Georgia so its not the same. If you look at some of the professional outfits, for example HogSwat (youtube them, they are awesome) and read thier website, they describe thier equipment and why they use what they do, but of course, again, they are shooting the micro mini Georgia hogs.

Did I mention that the pigs in California are HUGE...
LOL Thanks CavTrooper. I think the Asian Boars are everywhere but they do grow big here...but I've been told they're not really for eating, too much unuseable junk on them. I saw one on a ridge once that looked quite large...looked impressive with the big shoulders. The average pig seems to be quite a bit smaller and I know if I have a choice I won't necessarily pick the largest one in the sounder.

That's quite a range of calibers you listed.
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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  #20  
Old 06-17-2013, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NulodPBall View Post
Hi MSS: Thanks for sharing your hunt and pics. Congrats on your first public land pig on iron sights.

Assuming your .308 was sighted in for 100 yards, I'm wondering if the steep ballistic curve got you. I tend to overestimate distance and up/down angles tend to make people shoot high also.

I probably would have chosen a heavier bullet than 55gr but you got meat on the table...and in one shot

I am expecting hill country shots so nothing over about 150 yards. I pick a 100 yard zero so if I guess right I never have to worry about shooting high and at most I should only have a point of impact 2 inches low.
Thanks! Actually my 308 was not sighted in at 100 yds, it was sigted in for "maximum pointblank trajectory" or something like that. I had taken it to a shot placement class put on by the dfw and the teacher (supposedly a former sf sniper) had us change from my familiar 100 yds to it. Needless to say I missed the 2 separate pigs because of my lack of practicing with that different zero. So I got fed up with it and switched back to the mini 14 (which I am used to a lot more than a scoped rifle) and I figured that since both of the pigs were around 50 yds and moving I figured it would do better than having a scope on even at the lowest setting. And sure enough, the next hunt I got one. That said, both of the pigs and even the one I got was going down a slope and I have since re-sighted the 308 back to 100 yds hehe.

Last edited by MapleSyrupSmuggler; 06-17-2013 at 7:22 PM..
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Old 06-17-2013, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
I was at Tejon the last WPMH and it's always the newbies that come in with the 223. It usually takes a few lost pigs before they learn it's not the all around caliber the salesman/buddy told them it was.

You get to choose the size of the pig to shoot? Get real.....most of the time you get a shot on one pig big or small.
Thanks...I'm wondering if the lost pigs were more related to the actual bullet selection rather than the caliber. I've noticed that many people try to shoot 55 gr FMJ when for less than a half tank of gas you can upgrade to a better bullet/round.

I figure out of a 20 round box, you spend 10 rounds verifying zero, and then hopefully only one more round for your money shot...and you have 9 more to go if you do miss.
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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Old 06-17-2013, 7:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NulodPBall View Post
Thanks...I'm wondering if the lost pigs were more related to the actual bullet selection rather than the caliber. I've noticed that many people try to shoot 55 gr FMJ when for less than a half tank of gas you can upgrade to a better bullet/round.

I figure out of a 20 round box, you spend 10 rounds verifying zero, and then hopefully only one more round for your money shot...and you have 9 more to go if you do miss.
First of all this is very illegal. ^^^
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Old 06-17-2013, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NulodPBall View Post
Thanks...I'm wondering if the lost pigs were more related to the actual bullet selection rather than the caliber. I've noticed that many people try to shoot 55 gr FMJ when for less than a half tank of gas you can upgrade to a better bullet/round.

I figure out of a 20 round box, you spend 10 rounds verifying zero, and then hopefully only one more round for your money shot...and you have 9 more to go if you do miss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
First of all this is very illegal. ^^^

Yea, FMJ is a no go. I just sight in the 223 with FMJ at the range and at the end use 2-3 copper TSX of the same grain to confirm zero and they are basically identical at 50 yds and that way I don't spend a fortune just sighting it in.

Last edited by MapleSyrupSmuggler; 06-17-2013 at 7:30 PM..
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  #24  
Old 06-17-2013, 7:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleSyrupSmuggler View Post
Thanks! Actually my 308 was not sighted in at 100 yds, it was sigted in for "maximum pointblank trajectory" or something like that. I had taken it to a shot placement class and the teacher (supposedly a former sf sniper) had us change from my familiar 100 yds to it. Needless to say I missed the 2 separate pigs because of my lack of practicing with that different zero. So I got fed up with it and switched back to the mini 14 (which I am used to a lot more than a scoped rifle) and I figured that since both of the pigs were within 50 yds and moving I figured it would do better than having a scope on even at the lowest setting. And sure enough, the next hunt I got one. That said, both of the pigs and even the one I got was going down a slope and I have since re-sighted the 308 back to 100 yds hehe.
Thanks for the additional info...yeah, I have a friend that wants to zero one of his rifles at 30 yards and he plans on everything evening out but I don't like the fact that he will have some shots hitting above his Point of Aim.

The one shot I took with my 6.8 I used my 2-8x scope, primarily because I have bad eyes, and I can verify my target quicker, and can glass with it instead of breaking out the binoculars but I am thinking of just going Iron Sights 'cause I don't mind saving a few ounces. I took a refresher class recently and I knew the range would be 50 yards or less so I thought I was going to be smart and zero my red dot for 25 yards without checking my ballistic curve. I realized after missing some of the closer shots that I was shooting high beyond 25 yds (about an inch high at 50yds) and low less than 25 yds (about an inch low at 7 yds). So I'm just going to go back to a 100 yd zero for that optic also. You reminded me that I still need to do that.

I usually start with my scope at it's lowest setting (2x).

I still have to remind myself that even with my 100 zero at about 20 yards I'll hit an inch low...that's partly why a friend of mine accidentally made a head shot and had to take another shot to finish.

Thanks again.
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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Old 06-17-2013, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NulodPBall View Post
Oh well...my pig dropped on one shot anyway
Fair enough.
It is my opinion that while they will work, they will not reliably work. The OTM style bullets rely on fragmentation to do max damage where as 'normal' hunting bullets rely on expansion. The berger hunting bullets are the only OTM style bullets (that I know of) that are advertised as fragmenting hunting bullets (DRT notwithstanding). Sierra advises that instead of the Sierra MATCH King you use the Sierra GAME King. Ultimately the bullets companies advertise as hunting bullets should reliably expand or fragment, the bullets they advertise as target bullets make no such claim.

As I said, they might work all the time, maybe.

That being said, you have to watch your minimum velocity recommendations with copper, TSX style bullets, so there's a lot going on no matter which bullet you choose to hunt with.

Last edited by NapalmCheese; 06-17-2013 at 8:19 PM..
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Old 06-17-2013, 8:32 PM
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First of all this is very illegal. ^^^
My bad...I'm sure they were using HP but I just couldn't tell the difference...I have bad eyes. While looking up CCR T14-353(a) (applies to Big Game, which pigs are) imagine my surprise to find that it's illegal to shoot BB guns while intoxicated.

Even with your standard 55gr HP I'd still pick a different round...
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”

Last edited by NulodPBall; 01-19-2014 at 3:56 AM..
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Old 06-17-2013, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
Fair enough.
It is my opinion that while they will work, they will not reliably work. The OTM style bullets rely on fragmentation to do max damage where as 'normal' hunting bullets rely on expansion. The berger hunting bullets are the only OTM style bullets (that I know of) that are advertised as fragmenting hunting bullets (DRT notwithstanding). Sierra advises that instead of the Sierra MATCH King you use the Sierra GAME King. Ultimately the bullets companies advertise as hunting bullets should reliably expand or fragment, the bullets they advertise as target bullets make no such claim.

As I said, they might work all the time, maybe.

That being said, you have to watch your minimum velocity recommendations with copper, TSX style bullets, so there's a lot going on no matter which bullet you choose to hunt with.
Thanks for the info.

I'll have to check my hunting stash but I think I went with copper in my last 6.8 purchase (I tend to buy a small box at a time when I'm buying something else)...I currently only shoot factory rounds (no patience to reload anymore) but I'll have to double check the velocity vs. range to target info, but I figure in the range I'm expecting I should be Ok.

Thanks again.
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From The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

Why is the idea of an unarmed elementary school principal lunging at an armed shooter and dying in the process heroic... but the idea of that same principal armed and stopping the armed shooter with her own gun... crazy? –from screen name “Voiceofreason”
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Old 06-17-2013, 9:19 PM
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Most of my pig and deer hunting is with a 6.8 but heres a .223 pig for you. DRT
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Old 06-17-2013, 9:22 PM
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Nice boar!
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB View Post
People decide to hunt meat pigs or trophy boars all the time. That's why guides can charge trophy fees. You see a sounder rooting around you don't have to draw down on Big Daddy

Pick your pig, pick your shot, it's all semantics
Please......that's not how it happens.......nice try!

If you do a BHCR hunt then you can pick......wild pigs don't normally act like that just ask Hatchet or BBS.

As for public pigs you have no idea what size will give you a clean shot just ask the people who kill on FHL if they can choose the size.

The norm is shot placement, bullet weight plus construction is the key to bringing any big animal down quickly. Yea the 223 or even a 17HMR can do it if conditions are right. But that's not in your favor so stack the odds in your favor to bring home the pig.
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Old 06-18-2013, 8:23 AM
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I have bith ARs myself. Common sense tells you to use the 6.8. Much more energy. The .223 is for yotes, varmits, etc.

CAN you kill a boar with a .223?? Obviously, yes. But if you have a choice, why would you?

If you were elk hunting and had a .270 and 30-06....CAN you kill an elk with the .270. Obviously, yes. But if you have a choice, why would you?
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Old 06-18-2013, 8:25 AM
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P.S. I get ~2600 fps with 110gr, Barnes TSX in my 6.8SPC witha 16" Bison upper. Devastating under 250 yds.
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Old 06-18-2013, 8:30 AM
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MJB, that's often how its happened for me, I have encountered groups of pigs more often than not - 4-10, sometimes with piglets in tow. Maybe I don't hunt them where you do, as I do not usually hunt in CA, except for local deer. I do not know who you are referring to, but if they are guides then I suppose their areas might get more pressure and pigs maybe act differently?
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Old 06-18-2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Please......that's not how it happens.......nice try!

If you do a BHCR hunt then you can pick......wild pigs don't normally act like that just ask Hatchet or BBS.

As for public pigs you have no idea what size will give you a clean shot just ask the people who kill on FHL if they can choose the size.
Hunting with a guide, I have always had a choice of hogs to shoot at.

Hunting public land (FHL) I shoot at the first hog I have a good chance at, unless it is a wet sow. Last time out I settled for a little 50-60 pound boar. He was worth the bullet, too..... MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Old 06-18-2013, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WHITE MAMBA View Post
Most of my pig and deer hunting is with a 6.8 but heres a .223 pig for you. DRT
Nice cutters, did you keep them?
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Old 06-18-2013, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NulodPBall View Post
Assuming your .308 was sighted in for 100 yards, I'm wondering if the steep ballistic curve got you. I tend to overestimate distance and up/down angles tend to make people shoot high also.
I learned that the hard way (sort of) when I first moved from the competition world where every target is at zero elevation relative to me, to hunting pigs in CA where just abut every pig I see is above me or below me. About 15 years ago I was on a ridge line and a sounder of pigs spilled out into the ravine below me, maybe 70 or so yards away. Secure in my competition marksmanship skills, I selected my pig, centered up the cross hairs on his ear, and squeezed the trigger. The bullet went right over that big boy's head, and killed a pig half his size that happened to be standing behind him. Missed a big one, but at least I got some meat out of the deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleSyrupSmuggler View Post
Yea, FMJ is a no go. I just sight in the 223 with FMJ at the range and at the end use 2-3 copper TSX of the same grain to confirm zero and they are basically identical at 50 yds and that way I don't spend a fortune just sighting it in.
You're fortunate. When I switched my 30-06 over from Sierra Game King's to the Barnes TTSX, I tried that. Didn't work for me - the 100 yard zero for the copper bullets was WAY different..... so much so, that the 30-06 is now my dedicated FHL "lead-free" hunting rifle. I've got a couple of other rifles that are good with lead, so it's no big deal.
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Old 06-18-2013, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleSyrupSmuggler View Post
Yea, FMJ is a no go. I just sight in the 223 with FMJ at the range and at the end use 2-3 copper TSX of the same grain to confirm zero and they are basically identical at 50 yds and that way I don't spend a fortune just sighting it in.
You do realize that past about 100 yards you will be way off the mark don't you?
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Old 06-18-2013, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
You're fortunate. When I switched my 30-06 over from Sierra Game King's to the Barnes TTSX, I tried that. Didn't work for me - the 100 yard zero for the copper bullets was WAY different..... so much so, that the 30-06 is now my dedicated FHL "lead-free" hunting rifle. I've got a couple of other rifles that are good with lead, so it's no big deal.
For me, federal 150 gr softpoints shoot about the same as barnes 150 gr ttsx bt. The rem copper solids shoot waaay different though. Guess it depends on the rifle.
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Old 06-18-2013, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hikingwithguns View Post
For me, federal 150 gr softpoints shoot about the same as barnes 150 gr ttsx bt. The rem copper solids shoot waaay different though. Guess it depends on the rifle.
Just curious - is your barrel free-floated? I'm wondering if that's the difference - my action is bedded, and the barrel is free-floated past the receiver ring.

Also, both my lead Sierra GK and Barnes TTSX bullets are hand-loads. Same case, primer, and powder - but a heavier grain charge for the copper bullets. Also, the GK's are 165gr and the TTSX are 150gr. That's probably the the reason I'm seeing such a difference.

Although the POI between lead 150gr and 165gr is fairly negligible, the lighter copper bullets flying faster fly a lot differently. When I switched to the TTSX, they were printing both about 8" high and about 8" left of where the 165's were zeroed.
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Old 06-18-2013, 5:30 PM
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Funny how nobody thinks about cold barrel accuracy. No wonder 10% of people are successful deer hunting.
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I've gone to cabelas outfitter pattern for the central coast. Works so good the animals and I never see each other.
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1201509
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