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  #1  
Old 06-12-2013, 3:48 PM
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Default Good shoot/draw vs bad shoot/brandishing scenario question

The video is not safe for Calguns due to the nudity. If you wish to see it, you will have to do that off site. The discussion is important enough to remain tho. Please do not post the video on Calguns anyone. Thank you.
retired


Summary for those who don't feel like watching/can't watch the video at the moment:

Naked man begins grabbing at and hitting women
Does some acrobatics, appears extremely physically fit
Punches and kicks BART security and bystanders who attempt to get involved, bystanders mostly give up, crazy man goes back to assaulting random women
Does some acrobatics, blocks more women's paths, attempts to grab more, scuffles some more with BART security
Lays down for no particular reason, passerby takes opportunity to direct a lazy kick at him, keeps walking (funniest part of video IMO)
Goes back to assaulting/acrobatics some more
Video cut - police arrive, he appears willing to fight police, SFPD ain't having it and pulls out a baton, naked man backs down and lays down and lets himself be cuffed.


So, on to my question[s]:

Given that you can clearly see in the video that he is mostly targeting women, but punches and kicks other people who get involved as well, given that he is either unstable or on drugs, would someone with a CCW - NOT the women getting attacked but a bystander - be ok to draw down on this dude to stop/prevent the assaults? Defense of another is a situation where it is ok to if there is risk of bodily injury, life, limb, or eyesight correct?

Question #2:
If you do draw down on him and order him to the ground until police come and he instead chooses to come after you, are you justified in shooting him?


My understanding is that given the disparity of force between any of the woman and the attacker, one of them would be perfectly justified in shooting him, but I'm not so sure on a LTC holder bystander. I THINK it would be good to go in the defense of another, and not brandishing, to simply present the firearm and order him to cease and desist. I THINK that if, at that point, he turned on the LTC holder, that person would be justified in shooting him.

Not an ideal situation, lots of people around, possibility of ricochets/backdrop/etc I know. But for simply the purposes of drawing and shooting, would a LTC holder be legally good to go as I described? Also, given that he was clear-headed enough to back down when confronted by a cop, seems to me he'd back down if confronted by a LTC holder with a gun.

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE REPLYING. I'm quoting myself here because some people are obviously not reading past the first post before hammering out their replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MellonPopper View Post
I didn't necessarily think the Op was gearing up to play cowboy as much as he was asking for validation of his thinking of the law. I think it's great that he asked the question here as he got great feedback, and it likely corrected his line of thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
So a few more thoughts here -

Absolutely agreed that less lethal would be ideal. Citizens, however, don't carry batons, and even if you have a LTC a gun or maybe pepper spray are your limited options. I don't know of anyone with a LTC that carries both a firearm and a taser. I didn't think it was immediately necessary to draw and shoot - please don't read anything as "I'd shoot him immediately" or anything. MellonPopper's got it right - I'm seeking validation/correct interpretation of the laws, not necessarily whether or not it's the perfect solution to the problem. Nothing's ever perfect and as has been stated by myself and others, things could have gone drastically differently any number of ways. Basically, put yourself in that station as a bystander/off duty/LTC person, and how would you interpret your legal options as the situation unfolds.
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Last edited by NorCalAthlete; 07-01-2013 at 2:13 AM..
  #2  
Old 06-12-2013, 4:28 PM
b_madeiros b_madeiros is offline
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It would be a bad idea there is no assult with a deadly weapon...what did you do to extinguish the situation...nothing but pull out your gun what about a clear area of fire? ....my 2 cents your not the police so defend the woman if you like but dont pull out a gun the better option would to ask for 3-4 men to help you hold him down.
he has nothing on him

Last edited by b_madeiros; 06-12-2013 at 4:34 PM..
  #3  
Old 06-12-2013, 4:34 PM
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Are you a LEO?
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Old 06-12-2013, 4:53 PM
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Think of a CCW as being something you use to protect yourself or your family. Beyond that and you have a lot of potentially difficult questions to answer.
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Old 06-12-2013, 5:19 PM
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First off, given the fact that the suspect is clearly not in control of his mental faculties, either because of drugs or mental health issues do you really think that just pointing a gun at him would get him to comply? Pointing a gun at someone, without the legal justification to use lethal force is always a very bad idea.

If a bystander pointed a gun at this guy, I suspect there is every possibility that the suspect would attack the person holding the gun, and either get shot, or take the gun away and use it on the bystander or other folks in the area.

While I do think it would be completely appropriate for a bystander to get involved to stop an assault, using a gun in this situation would be a very bad idea. Pick up a chair and hit him with it - - throw a trash can at him, lots of things a bystander can do. Two or three guys get together and take him down and sit on him.

Introduce a gun to this situation - - no, a very bad idea.

Last edited by 003; 06-12-2013 at 5:27 PM..
  #6  
Old 06-12-2013, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 003 View Post
First off, given the fact that the suspect is clearly not in control of his mental faculties, either because of drugs or mental health issues do you really think that just pointing a gun at him would get him to comply? Pointing a gun at someone, without the legal justification to use lethal force is always a very bad idea.

If a bystander pointed a gun at this guy, I suspect there is every possibility that the suspect would attack the person holding the gun, and either get shot, or take the gun away and use it on the bystander or other folks in the area.

While I do think it would be completely appropriate for a bystander to get involved to stop an assault, using a gun in this situation would be a very bad idea. Pick up a chair and hit him with it - - throw a trash can at him, lots of things a bystander can do. Two or three guys get together and take him down and sit on him.

Introduce a gun to this situation - - no, a very bad idea.
^
This given the poor quality of the video, it is hard to tell if he is attacking or just intimidating the women. So has the incident reached the level of "great bodily harm" hard to say. Bringing a gun into the mix, in the hopes that he will comply is foolish at best. Hell even people with out drug and mental issues don't always do what you tell them with a gun pointed at them, seems that he was smart enough to figure out that SFPD wasn't going to play games though. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually went through with signing a ca form.
  #7  
Old 06-12-2013, 6:40 PM
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capoeira? Eddy Gordo on drugs?




Definitely sickening to watch only 1 man do something to help these poor women.

I really don't know what I'd do, honestly.
  #8  
Old 06-12-2013, 6:49 PM
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Consider this:

You draw a gun on him, you then escalated the situation if you were not in personal life threatening danger. He attacks you in response to the weapon being presented and you shoot.

Could be considered a bad shoot now, since the weapon being presented can now be attributed to the situation escalating.

If he's not physically hurting someone, let the police do their jobs.
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2013, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFence View Post
Consider this:

You draw a gun on him, you then escalated the situation if you were not in personal life threatening danger. He attacks you in response to the weapon being presented and you shoot.

Could be considered a bad shoot now, since the weapon being presented can now be attributed to the situation escalating.

If he's not physically hurting someone, let the police do their jobs.
That's the point though - he WAS physically hurting multiple people.
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Old 06-12-2013, 7:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
That's the point though - he WAS physically hurting multiple people.
To the point of using deadly force to stop him? The responding officer didn't seem to think so and used different means.

It's a tough situation to put yourself in. You are not required to get involved and if you do, be prepared for what the repercussions maybe.

On the other hand, if you chose not to get involved and somebody gets seriously injured and you could have possibly prevented it, could weigh heavy on the head.

Zimmerman comes to mind.
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Old 06-12-2013, 8:03 PM
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This situation is exactly why law enforcement carry less lethal equipment.
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Old 06-12-2013, 8:04 PM
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Not quite at the point of drawing your weapon. Now if he hit that girl so hard that she fell to the ground unconscious then he continued his assault, by all means go 10-8!

But we didn't have that. Someone should have pinned him to the ground when he laid down.
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2013, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
That's the point though - he WAS physically hurting multiple people.
Would you consider the force he was exhibiting to be of sufficient intensity to cause great bodily harm?

I didn't see enough to determine that intent
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Old 06-12-2013, 8:55 PM
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I think some pepper spray on the jewels would have been fitting for that d bag...
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy69 View Post
I think some pepper spray on the jewels would have been fitting for that d bag...
LEO here

Didn't see imminent danger of death or SBI...he was not pressing attack on one person to point of SBI. Lots of acrobatics....young man in very good condition.

Although he had present ability, he did not clearly manifest intent nor did he satisfy the jeopardy component. Bear in mind, this could change in an instant. Based on what I saw, I would NOT have drawn if I was in off-duty status unless the scene changed radically. I would have remained O/S to assist responding officers.

All were lucky he decided to lay down rather than face the lumber. This could have gone VERY badly on a bunch of levels

Just my 2c
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:52 AM
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What if one of the ladies were pregnant? Now what?
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Old 06-13-2013, 1:27 AM
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Was the guy acting like he was on drugs? Yes, totally the dude was nuts and potentially dangerous but in reality all he did was cause very minor misdemeanor crimes against a couple people who walked away without any lasting effects other than being really scared.

Stand by and watch and make sure he doesn't pull out the throat of someone or gouge out someones eyes sure but pull out your gun and you just created a possibly very dangerous situation. Did you notice the cop pulled his baton and not his gun? As a cop I guarantee you shoot that guy and you just screwed yourself. Whats your backdrop? A crowded subway full of people? You might not go to prison for murder cause you said you were scared and trying to save lives but dudes wife and family will sue you for millions and win. All they need is 51% of proof to win that civil suit and now you have to pay some scumbags family $250 a month until you die. Its not worth it.
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Old 06-13-2013, 2:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
given that he is either unstable or on drugs, would someone with a CCW - NOT the women getting attacked but a bystander - be ok to draw down on this dude to stop/prevent the assaults? Defense of another is a situation where it is ok to if there is risk of bodily injury, life, limb, or eyesight correct?

Question #2:
If you do draw down on him and order him to the ground until police come and he instead chooses to come after you, are you justified in shooting him?


My understanding is that given the disparity of force between any of the woman and the attacker, one of them would be perfectly justified in shooting him, but I'm not so sure on a LTC holder bystander. I THINK it would be good to go in the defense of another, and not brandishing, to simply present the firearm and order him to cease and desist. I THINK that if, at that point, he turned on the LTC holder, that person would be justified in shooting him.

Not an ideal situation, lots of people around, possibility of ricochets/backdrop/etc I know. But for simply the purposes of drawing and shooting, would a LTC holder be legally good to go as I described? Also, given that he was clear-headed enough to back down when confronted by a cop, seems to me he'd back down if confronted by a LTC holder with a gun.
Are you kidding me? Please tell me more about your background that you think it is ok to shoot the guy in this incident??
At WHAT point was he a threat to life??
There are drug addicts in the world, there are crazy people- do you just want to shoot them all for walking around naked towards women??
I think you need to live in the real world.

ALSO- why would you ever draw your weapon as a "threat"?? you do not present a firearm unless you are ready to use it! This requires you to have the judgment and awareness to decide that he IS threatening someone's life- if you'd made these comments to me at the time I'd understand purely because of adrenaline and lack of rational understanding- but the fact you've watched this on youtube and making these decisions....scary.

The training companies that solely train HOW to use your weapon much outweigh the companies that teach judgment, law and threat awareness training in this country and this is why there are so many ****ing idiots with weapons out there- and I'm not talking about criminals.
I am specifically talking about idiots with weapons....but then again I realise there are drug addicts, crazy people AND stupid people everywhere.
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Old 06-13-2013, 3:23 AM
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IANAL or a LEO, but I think that drawing your weapon would be very unwise. If he is as whacked out as he seems, drawing down on him would not go well for those involved, and would probably cause the sheeple in the crowd to freak out!

Someone else commented that 3-4 guys should coordinate and hold him down until police arrive. In this instance, I would be inclined to agree. It didn't seem to be a life or death situation so waiting for LEO would seem prudent. If he had not been molesting or otherwise impeding the ladies I wouldn't even suggest attempting to restrain him.

Since he was not armed, the LEO would probably have tazed him if he did not comply with their instructions.

Of course, if he was impotent, he could be charged for "assault with a dead weapon"!
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Old 06-13-2013, 4:14 AM
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From what I could see in the video, I would NOT have drawn my firearm on this guy.... This is another reason to make sure you get a holster with retention! Things may get physical before you are allowed to use your firearm.
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Old 06-13-2013, 5:01 AM
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Not a LEO, but I carry everyday.

Persoanlly, I would not have drawn my weapon for this specific incident, however, I would have been mentally preparing myself to do so if the situation changed. As most have already said, legally, it would be very iffy if it was a good draw/shoot. Too much so for my comfort level anyways.

However, I think it's important to look at this from a tactics point of view also. First of all, there were an awful lot of people in the area and it would be difficult to find a clear lane to fire. Also, the guy is clearly unstable - whether it's from drugs, mental illness, whatever. He's also very young and physically fit. Due to all of that, it would be too risky if he were to charge at you which wouldn't be too unlikely IMO. And yes, he most definitely would be able to overpower most people in that state it seems like. I've seen multiple videos of LEOs shooting and hitting someone like that and they just keep running and put up a serious fight after having several holes punched into them.

If I was there, I would try to coordiante with 3-4 other people to hold the guy down, as others have said. If no one, or not enough people were willing to help, it would be stupid to jump in by myself with no back up - especially being armed.

Just my .02, worth exactly what you paid for it.
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Old 06-13-2013, 6:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc61132l View Post
Are you kidding me? Please tell me more about your background that you think it is ok to shoot the guy in this incident??
At WHAT point was he a threat to life??
I didn't necessarily think the Op was gearing up to play cowboy as much as he was asking for validation of his thinking of the law. I think it's great that he asked the question here as he got great feedback, and it likely corrected his line of thought. A reply such as yours may make some not post at all in fear of getting ridiculed or scolded. At least he asked...

As someone going through the CCW application, I always appreciate this type of discussion as it just helps to reinforce correct behavior. All the replies were in 100% agreement. No justification.

I think carrying will be the highest level of responsibility one can have. As PsychGuy274 said, carrying, would have kept me out of this whole scenario other than being good whiteness, whereas if I wasn't carrying, I would have likely tried to help.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MellonPopper View Post
I didn't necessarily think the Op was gearing up to play cowboy as much as he was asking for validation of his thinking of the law. I think it's great that he asked the question here as he got great feedback, and it likely corrected his line of thought. A reply such as yours may make some not post at all in fear of getting ridiculed or scolded. At least he asked...

As someone going through the CCW application, I always appreciate this type of discussion as it just helps to reinforce correct behavior. All the replies were in 100% agreement. No justification.

I think carrying will be the highest level of responsibility one can have. As PsychGuy274 said, carrying, would have kept me out of this whole scenario other than being good whiteness, whereas if I wasn't carrying, I would have likely tried to help.
If there was more extensive training in threat awareness, and judgement in dangerous scenarios, or what to do in these situations how popular do you think this would be in southern california?

What came across as ridicule was more frustration on my part. With the various incidents across the US I believe if the same effort was put into judgment/preventative training as we put into marksmanship then it would be more beneficial. As a nation we spend A LOT of money on weapons training courses and drills until we can key-hole our rounds, but if so many gun-owners have weapons for personal and home defense then why aren't they putting their financial and physical efforts into judgment and threat awareness training? Is it lack of availability? Or lack of interest?
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:53 PM
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It popped up on the news this morning, seems like no charges have been filed. No mention of drugs/alcohol or other impairment either.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...sco&id=9137914

I do like how his friends say it was out of character, well duh I would guess it is out of character for most people to run around naked in a BART station, but then again it was San Francisco, so most anything goes.
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Old 06-13-2013, 3:43 PM
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I did not see anything in the video which would cause me to believe a firearm should be drawn (except a bean bag shotgun).
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:40 PM
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So a few more thoughts here -

Absolutely agreed that less lethal would be ideal. Citizens, however, don't carry batons, and even if you have a LTC a gun or maybe pepper spray are your limited options. I don't know of anyone with a LTC that carries both a firearm and a taser. I didn't think it was immediately necessary to draw and shoot - please don't read anything as "I'd shoot him immediately" or anything. MellonPopper's got it right - I'm seeking validation/correct interpretation of the laws, not necessarily whether or not it's the perfect solution to the problem. Nothing's ever perfect and as has been stated by myself and others, things could have gone drastically differently any number of ways. Basically, put yourself in that station as a bystander/off duty/LTC person, and how would you interpret your legal options as the situation unfolds.

As for my background - 28 months in Iraq, 9 years in the military now, not a peace officer, not a lawyer. I shoot regularly, though not as often as I'd like anymore due to ammo cost/availability, and I'm constantly "wargaming" / armchair quarterbacking situations like this - would a LTC in the right hands have made a difference here? Obviously things turned out relatively fine, but what if, what if, what if, etc? I'm aware of my surroundings and backdrops, relatively aware of when to get involved and when not to, but I don't know that I would have/could have stood by and watched several women getting punched and kicked if nobody else stepped in to do anything.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete
but I don't know that I would have/could have stood by and watched several women getting punched and kicked
Are you saying that that is what you saw...or what you imagined?

I didn't see it go there and didn't even get the feel that it was heading that way
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:26 AM
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I saw 3 women get grabbed and 1 man get punched and kicked for intervening in the video. Difficult to see additional strikes/chokes/anything else that may have happened. I was not there and I am not posting about what I imagined happened, I am posting on what DID happen and what could have happened. I am not sure if you're simply being inflammatory or genuinely curious with your post. If this is going to turn into a flame fest we might as well end the discussion and lock this down now. I'll give it a few more posts.

gc61132l - in regards to marksmanship training vs judgement and threat awareness training - Other than in martial arts schools or CCW/LTC classes, I'm not aware of any places that offer simple classes in judgement/threat awareness. Most people gain situational awareness from military training or LEO training or some other form of public safety, ie firefighters, EMTs, etc. Training and the lack of or availability of it seems like a separate discussion though.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:46 AM
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I was actually curious as to your perception of what occurred.

You posted, "...several women getting punched and kicked " in a justification statement for possibly intervening.

...but when I asked for clarification; because I hadn't seen what you described.

You backed off to, "...3 women get grabbed "...which is indeed what I saw also

It seems as if you have a tendency to over dramatize what you are seeing...if might just be transference...and is something you should be aware of when making such lifechanging decisions
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  #30  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:50 AM
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Gun would only agitate him with an end result of him being dead or your gun taken away from u. He clearly doesn't have all his senses. Pepper spray or stun gun might work. If he's on pcp I doubt it. They did the right thing just by watching and waiting for pd. now if the guy grabbed the umbra another guy had and started to poke at people I believe lethal force would be justified. Ianl.

Kinda funny towards the end the guy walking the bike kicks him while crazy **** is lieing on the ground. Girl needed stop being so melodramatic.
  #31  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I was actually curious as to your perception of what occurred.

You posted, "...several women getting punched and kicked " in a justification statement for possibly intervening.

...but when I asked for clarification; because I hadn't seen what you described.

You backed off to, "...3 women get grabbed "...which is indeed what I saw also

It seems as if you have a tendency to over dramatize what you are seeing...if might just be transference...and is something you should be aware of when making such lifechanging decisions
I think you're misreading my posts a bit. Part of them are "what ifs" and when you asked what I imagined or saw I simply told you what I saw in the video. Would using the term "multiple" instead of "several" be more accurate to your liking then? My statement "I don't know that I could stand by and watch several women getting punched and kicked" stands by itself. It's like saying I don't know I could stand by and watch someone get raped, stabbed, etc. You're reading too much into my posts I think.
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Last edited by NorCalAthlete; 06-14-2013 at 1:01 AM..
  #32  
Old 06-14-2013, 2:25 AM
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First, BART does not have "security", they have their own Police Department and Police Officers. The person in that video is not one of them.

Second, that was most likely BART Police that took the suspect into custody unless SF happened to arrive first.

Third. I did not see any situation that would authorize the use of deadly force. There did not appear to be any threat of death or seriously bodily injury. The fact that he may have hit multiple people has nothing to do with it. If someone punched everyone that walked by him in the shoulder, do you believe that deadly force is justified? As a CCW holder, your weapon should only come out as a last resort and only if you reasonably believe that someone is about to be seriously injured or killed.
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Last edited by TRICKSTER; 06-14-2013 at 2:45 AM..
  #33  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:40 PM
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Please read my edit of the OP. No posting of video on Calguns please.
  #34  
Old 06-19-2013, 2:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
The video is not safe for Calguns due to the nudity. If you wish to see it, you will have to do that off site. The discussion is important enough to remain tho. Please do not post the video on Calguns anyone. Thank you.
retired


Summary for those who don't feel like watching/can't watch the video at the moment:

Naked man begins grabbing at and hitting women
Does some acrobatics, appears extremely physically fit
Punches and kicks BART security and bystanders who attempt to get involved, bystanders mostly give up, crazy man goes back to assaulting random women
Does some acrobatics, blocks more women's paths, attempts to grab more, scuffles some more with BART security
Lays down for no particular reason, passerby takes opportunity to direct a lazy kick at him, keeps walking (funniest part of video IMO)
Goes back to assaulting/acrobatics some more
Video cut - police arrive, he appears willing to fight police, SFPD ain't having it and pulls out a baton, naked man backs down and lays down and lets himself be cuffed.


So, on to my question[s]:

Given that you can clearly see in the video that he is mostly targeting women, but punches and kicks other people who get involved as well, given that he is either unstable or on drugs, would someone with a CCW - NOT the women getting attacked but a bystander - be ok to draw down on this dude to stop/prevent the assaults? Defense of another is a situation where it is ok to if there is risk of bodily injury, life, limb, or eyesight correct?

from the video, he is not causing great bodily injury likely to result in death. therefore deadly force is not needed.



Question #2:
If you do draw down on him and order him to the ground until police come and he instead chooses to come after you, are you justified in shooting him?

i personally would not draw down on him. and its safe to say that no other LEO here on this board, OFF DUTY would do so either.


My understanding is that given the disparity of force between any of the woman and the attacker, one of them would be perfectly justified in shooting him, but I'm not so sure on a LTC holder bystander. I THINK it would be good to go in the defense of another, and not brandishing, to simply present the firearm and order him to cease and desist. I THINK that if, at that point, he turned on the LTC holder, that person would be justified in shooting him.

your understanding is wrong. none of the women in the video suffered great bodily injury. disparity of force? wtf is that?


Not an ideal situation, lots of people around, possibility of ricochets/backdrop/etc I know. But for simply the purposes of drawing and shooting, would a LTC holder be legally good to go as I described? Also, given that he was clear-headed enough to back down when confronted by a cop, seems to me he'd back down if confronted by a LTC holder with a gun.
a bystander carrying a ccw in this situation would be in some pretty hot water if they decided to use deadly force when the situation did not call for it. but for arguments sake lets just say that the attacker did escalate the situation and grabbed a woman and put her in a choke, his hands around her throat. he is clearly strangling the woman and she is fighting to get away but cannot. he is on top of her. you can see that the woman is starting to lose the fight and is no longer struggling a much to get away. she is starting to lose conciousness. the threat of great bodily injury likely to result in death is now present. deadly force is necessary to stop the attack. do what you have to do to save this woman. but from the video it would be a bad shoot.
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Last edited by Warhawk014; 06-19-2013 at 2:49 AM..
  #35  
Old 06-23-2013, 2:52 AM
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The video disturbing as it my be, the use of deadly force is not an option at this time. I think the taser would of been a good tool to use. Whether under the influence or mental issues the best trained officers couldn't tell you what was coming next. It's the suspects actions that dictates our response. Being naked, clearly you can see that he has no access to a weapon. That doesn't mean that he still couldn't arm himself. Let's say there's a maintenance man working close by and this suspect has decided to arm himself with a screwdriver or an awl from the maintenance man's tool chest. Now! You have a deadly force situation. Now is the time too draw. Remember deadly force meets deadly force. Take into consideration your back drop, adrenaline dump and be aware of tunnel vision along with controlling your breathing and you should be ok. Don't forget he is a moving target, so take aim and be right on before you fire.
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Old 06-23-2013, 8:07 AM
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Let's see what happens to the Zimmerman trial.
  #37  
Old 06-23-2013, 8:13 PM
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As stated above by others;
NEVER rely on the display of your gun as a means to gain compliance from another. All you will accomplish is showing all your cards, and now you are at a disadvantage when the close quarters physical fight starts...
I subscribe to only pulling out a gun when fear for your life or others is immediately present.
  #38  
Old 06-23-2013, 9:26 PM
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Bad idea to pull out your gun. DO NOT try to be a HERO. If your life or family members life is not in life threatening situation, you have no reason to pull out your gun. You are issued a CCW permit to defend yourself in life threatening situations only. If you can't make that judgement, you shouldn't be carrying.

There are certainly other ways to subdue the suspect...
  #39  
Old 06-23-2013, 9:33 PM
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Old 07-01-2013, 2:10 AM
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Some of you are awfully quick to jump to conclusions about my judgement and character. For those who have actually interpreted this thread correctly, thank you for contributing to the discussion. I do not know which, if any of you, whom replied are active LEOs.

For Warhawk asking "wtf is that" to disparity of force - being a calgunner, and especially if you're a LEO, I'm surprised you've never heard the term.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...rity-of-force/

Quote:
Deadly force cannot be used unless the victim is in fear of deadly force. This usually requires the presence of a weapon. However, sometimes a significant disparity in the strength or fighting ability between the parties is accepted as a substitute weapon.

It is accepted that women are more successful with this defense than are men.
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...rity-of-force/

Quote:
Here are some examples of Disparity of Force:
  • Large man against small man.
    Able bodied man against disabled man.
    Man against woman.
    Man or woman known to have training in the martial arts against untrained man or woman.
Massad Ayoob:
Quote:
Disparity of force is the situation that authorizes the law-abiding citizen to shoot what appears to be an unarmed man. In this concept, the law recognizes that the power of the attacker to kill or cripple with "body weapons," fists or feet, may be so great vis-a-vis the defender's stature and ability that this disparity of physical force becomes the aggressor's deadly weapon.
I promise I'm not just pulling stuff out of my rear end here.

Finally, I'm going to edit the first post here for those who are reading the first post and skipping down to type out a reply without reading the rest of the thread.
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