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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 06-01-2013, 1:01 PM
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Default Can I shoot 7.62 military ammo in a .308 bolt action rifle ?

I mainly ask this as I may get a Remington Model 700 bolt gun and have lots of the ammo to use. Thanks in advance
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:09 PM
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7.62x51, yes.
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:30 PM
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No.
Actually, I had just had two posts about this, one here and one on the Firing Line Forum.
There is a great deal of divergence with the answers.
Just last week someone was doing it. He couldn't get the bolt back. It kept jamming the gun.
The manufacturer recommends that you do not use mil spec in your non mil gun.
Let me give you some links.
dc
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525226
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=765736
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:30 PM
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On the loading charts 7.62 typically falls under "service rifle" with lower max charges. I was told this is a download for the M1A/M14.
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:30 PM
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http://www.fulton-armory.com/%5Cfaqs...FAQs%5C308.htm

I have an AR10 stamped 7.62x51 NATO - Armalite says it's fine to run .308 in it. If I had a 700 I would probably ask Remington if I wanted to be sure-sure rather than internet-sure.

Last edited by anomie; 06-01-2013 at 1:33 PM..
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:39 PM
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a little off topic - but in the same genre... where are you getting mil surp 7.62? (probably something already on hand?)

I ask, because I'd like to find some
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Old 06-01-2013, 1:48 PM
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7.62 Nato is a lower pressure round as compared to .308. Most 7.62 Nato is sized to the same oal as 308 but there can be some that might be longer oal, but most will work fine. Now going the other way is not recommended as the higher pressures aren't good for rifles not designed for it. I believe the specification difference was for the delayed roller type rifles i.e. FAL, G3's etc..needing lower pressures to promote longevity.
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Old 06-01-2013, 2:03 PM
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a little off topic - but in the same genre... where are you getting mil surp 7.62? (probably something already on hand?)

I ask, because I'd like to find some
yea. already on hand. Good luck in you quest to find.
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Old 06-01-2013, 2:08 PM
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yea. already on hand. Good luck in you quest to find.
10-4, thanks
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Old 06-01-2013, 2:37 PM
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7.62 chambers are allowed a few thousandths more headspace but the cartridge dimensions are the same as 308. NATO rounds are loaded to a lower max pressure with a powder having the appropriate burn rate for gas operated rifles (IMR 4895 or WC846).
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Old 06-01-2013, 4:17 PM
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7.62 chambers are allowed a few thousandths more headspace but the cartridge dimensions are the same as 308. NATO rounds are loaded to a lower max pressure with a powder having the appropriate burn rate for gas operated rifles (IMR 4895 or WC846).
This^

I have come across some 7.62x51 ammo that was hard to chamber in a .308Win chamber, but they were not "NATO spec". If the 7.62x51 ammo will chamber in the .308Win rifle, then it's safe to fire. However, it is not always safe to fire .308Win ammo in a 7.62x51 chamber rifle (higher allowable chamber pressure and generous headspace may cause head separations).
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2013, 4:21 PM
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My understanding is that the limitation is the op rod on the M14, according to Hornady.

Last edited by Knife Edge; 06-01-2013 at 4:23 PM..
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2013, 4:23 PM
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good to know
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  #14  
Old 06-01-2013, 4:56 PM
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I have about 5 1/2 cans filled with a mixture of of these below. Will these be hard to chamber in 308Win also?



I also have 2 full cans filled with loose rounds of these below, they have the same headstamp as whats pictured in the top box:

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  #15  
Old 06-01-2013, 7:19 PM
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I have about 5 1/2 cans filled with a mixture of of these below. Will these be hard to chamber in 308Win also?



I also have 2 full cans filled with loose rounds of these below, they have the same headstamp as whats pictured in the top box:

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  #16  
Old 06-01-2013, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by xOperator View Post
I have about 5 1/2 cans filled with a mixture of of these below. Will these be hard to chamber in 308Win also?



I also have 2 full cans filled with loose rounds of these below, they have the same headstamp as whats pictured in the top box:

That all looks old. I have some fresh TulAmmo I'll trade ya.
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  #17  
Old 06-01-2013, 7:34 PM
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Dibs on the brass if you'll keep it. Ping me if interested.
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  #18  
Old 06-01-2013, 8:03 PM
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Ask different people, get different answers. I was in two different shops this week (one that specializes in long range precision rifles), and both said 7.62x51 and .308 were basically the same. Both said the pressure differences between the two were minimal.
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  #19  
Old 06-01-2013, 8:06 PM
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.308 ammo in your 7.62x51 AR-10, AR 308, M1A is fine.

7.62NATO, 7.62x51 ammo in your .308 Rifle ( Rem PSS 700 )- better not.
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  #20  
Old 06-01-2013, 8:14 PM
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They are measured with two different standards.
For factory loads, you're fine in my opinion. 308 is a little hotter in most cases and the brass is thinner. I would not run 308 in a NATO rifle but NATO in a bolt gun shouldn't be a problem.
Where you can get in trouble fast is reloading NATO brass as the case volume is slightly less and you can get your pressures up into the stupid range without realizing it. Stuck cases and primers falling out anyone?
Oh well, not kidding about your brass. It's good stuff and it looks like your gonna have a ton of it.
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2013, 8:40 PM
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Here, this is some good reading on the subject.
http://www.303british.com/id36.html
Monte, not picking a fight but you got it backward. This isn't like 223 and 556, in which case the NATO is hot stuff.
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  #22  
Old 06-01-2013, 8:50 PM
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Default 7 million Remingtons can't be wrong

Let me count the thousands of civilian .308s that have been damaged by 7.62X51 Nato. Yea, right.

Guys, turn-off your computers and spend some time on the range where thousands of 700s shoot millions of Nato 7.62X51 on a regular basis. Shooters have be pumping Nato spec 7.62x51 thru civilian rifles since the 1950s. I think the secret is out by now.
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  #23  
Old 06-01-2013, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
Let me count the thousands of civilian .308s that have been damaged by 7.62X51 Nato. Yea, right.

Guys, turn-off your computers and spend some time on the range where thousands of 700s shoot millions of Nato 7.62X51 on a regular basis. Shooters have be pumping Nato spec 7.62x51 thru civilian rifles since the 1950s. I think the secret is out by now.
Good stuff here ! ^^^^
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  #24  
Old 06-01-2013, 10:00 PM
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I shoot Winchester Q3130 out of my M1A and Remington 700P with no issues. I do not shoot .308 ammo out of the M1A,
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MontClaire View Post
.308 ammo in your 7.62x51 AR-10, AR 308, M1A is fine.

7.62NATO, 7.62x51 ammo in your .308 Rifle ( Rem PSS 700 )- better not.
You need to read the rest of this thread. In general, 7.62 NATO is fine in rifles marked for 308, bolt or semi. But, since not all guns are created equal, some rifles may be more picky. In general, 308 is to be avoided in rifles marked for 7.62 NATO unless the manufacturer states otherwise.

http://www.303british.com/id36.html
http://how-i-did-it.org/762vs308/chamber.html

Plenty more resources through a simple google search.

Last edited by fmunk; 06-02-2013 at 12:30 AM..
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Old 06-02-2013, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David13 View Post
No.
Actually, I had just had two posts about this, one here and one on the Firing Line Forum.
There is a great deal of divergence with the answers.
Just last week someone was doing it. He couldn't get the bolt back. It kept jamming the gun.
The manufacturer recommends that you do not use mil spec in your non mil gun.
Let me give you some links.
dc
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525226
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=765736
I always suggest deferring to the manufacturer no matter how i feel about it...

I asked Weatherby about my Vanguard S2... They said go for it.
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Old 06-02-2013, 1:00 AM
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I have been shooting it for years in my rifles but they are all old like me.

Reloading the match cases does present an issue (PRESSURE SPIKES) I always use the lowest recipe and have had good results with that. Get multiple sources for the recipes for sure. I would like to buy some brass if it becomes available. Just a little to play around with. I have a bunch already. I like to compare.
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  #28  
Old 06-02-2013, 5:44 AM
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I have been shooting it for years in my rifles but they are all old like me.

Reloading the match cases does present an issue (PRESSURE SPIKES) I always use the lowest recipe and have had good results with that. Get multiple sources for the recipes for sure. I would like to buy some brass if it becomes available. Just a little to play around with. I have a bunch already. I like to compare.
If going from win brass to LC or FC drop down about 1.3g
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  #29  
Old 06-02-2013, 7:29 AM
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I've fired South African surplus 7.62 out of a 700 and found it very difficult to extract. Not sure it's NATO spec though because it doesn't have the NATO stamp on the case head.
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:06 AM
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Guys, the differences between 7.62 NATO and .308 Win are these:

1. 7.62 NATO allows for up to .013 inch greater headspace than .308 Win.

2. 7.62 NATO brass is thicker, particularly at the base web. (Accommodates #1 above.)

3. .308 Win allows higher pressure.

When you combine all 3 of these factors together and shoot .308 Win in a 7.62 NATO rifle, especially with reloads, you are creating the conditions for a case head separation.

And you may be exposing the rifle to higher pressure than it was designed for. Or slower powder burn rate than certain semi-autos need.

If you have a 7.62 NATO bolt gun, like my Israeli K98 Mauser, built on a large-ring action AND if it passes .308 headspace, shooting .308 Win is just fine. If you have a weaker bolt action, like a small-ring Mauser converted from 7X57 or an Indian 2A1, DON'T GO THERE!!!

NATO-spec ammo in a .308 Win should work just fine. Now, before I knew better, I tried 1 or 2 boxes of non-NATO 7.62X51 (Venezuelan CAVIM) and that stuff had issues in my Mauser. Hard extraction. The point is, milsurp 7.62X51 ammo from a non-NATO country - you don't know WHAT spec it was made to or the level of quality control. Some of it is probably fine. RESEARCH it before you buy.

Safe Shooting,
Crunch

Last edited by Crunch130; 06-02-2013 at 11:10 AM..
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  #31  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmunk View Post
You need to read the rest of this thread. In general, 7.62 NATO is fine in rifles marked for 308, bolt or semi. But, since not all guns are created equal, some rifles may be more picky. In general, 308 is to be avoided in rifles marked for 7.62 NATO unless the manufacturer states otherwise.

http://www.303british.com/id36.html
http://how-i-did-it.org/762vs308/chamber.html

Plenty more resources through a simple google search.


I've done quite a bit of research myself. What I've been reading from sources like Fulton Armory, supports this side of the fence. I recently picked up a box of 7.62x51 at Big 5. I'll try to remember to swing back to this thread after some range time with it in my 700.
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Old 06-02-2013, 4:26 PM
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I've done extensive research on this question and the related question: "can I shoot .308 ammo in a 7.62 NATO chamber?"

The answer to both is YES. No less an authority than SAAMI considers .308 and 7.62 to be the same cartridge, even though .308 is loaded slightly hotter and the casing is also slightly thinner. They do NOT have a warning against using one type of ammo in the other type of chamber. Contrast this to 5.56 vs .223; SAAMI does not consider these rounds to be interchangeable and specifically warns against using 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

The various criticisms of using .308 in a 7.62 chamber and vice versa are well-known. A 7.62 chamber is roomier than a .308 chamber in order to accommodate dirt, mud and other battlefield condidtions as well as varying tolerances due to different NATO countries of manufacture. A 7.62 cartridge tends to have greater (more permissive) tolerances than a .308 and thus some 7.62 cartridges will jam .308 chambers more readily, even though theoretically both cartridges have identical exterior dimensions.

A .308 casing is also slightly thinner than a 7.62 casing, and can be loaded slightly hotter. Couple that with a larger 7.62 chamber, and the theoretical worry becomes that a hotter, weaker .308 casing will overexpand in a wider, looser 7.62 chamber resulting in case rupture, or worse. This is a theoretical worry that has an actual real life occurrence more akin to UFO sightings. People swear up and down they've seen rifles explode using this or that kind of ammo in this or that kind of chamber, but proving that such catastrophic failures actually occurred AND that they were due to incorrect cartridge/chamber combinations rather than something else, is like looking for unicorns. Can anybody post verifiable evidence that such a thing occurred and that it was definitely due to .308 brass in a NATO chamber? If you can, go ahead and make my day. If not, saying "but I saw it!" don't mean dick on the internets. If this was a legitimate verifiable phenomenon, SAAMI would certainly have already come out against a 7.62/.308 combination. The fact that they don't warn against it but they do against a 5.56/.223 combination, speaks volumes.

There will be people saying stuff in response like "well if you want to take your life into your own hands, then /whatever" or something like that. But guess what, every time you pick up a rifle and fire it you are taking your life into your own hands. Those people have yet to prove my life is more at risk if I fire a .308 in a 7.62 NATO chamber. Get over it, don't be a ***** and go enjoy the range!

Last edited by Meatwaggon; 06-02-2013 at 4:28 PM..
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2013, 4:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatwaggon View Post
I've done extensive research on this question and the related question: "can I shoot .308 ammo in a 7.62 NATO chamber?"

The answer to both is YES. No less an authority than SAAMI considers .308 and 7.62 to be the same cartridge, even though .308 is loaded slightly hotter and the casing is also slightly thinner. They do NOT have a warning against using one type of ammo in the other type of chamber. Contrast this to 5.56 vs .223; SAAMI does not consider these rounds to be interchangeable and specifically warns against using 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

The various criticisms of using .308 in a 7.62 chamber and vice versa are well-known. A 7.62 chamber is roomier than a .308 chamber in order to accommodate dirt, mud and other battlefield condidtions as well as varying tolerances due to different NATO countries of manufacture. A 7.62 cartridge tends to have greater (more permissive) tolerances than a .308 and thus some 7.62 cartridges will jam .308 chambers more readily, even though theoretically both cartridges have identical exterior dimensions.

A .308 casing is also slightly thinner than a 7.62 casing, and can be loaded slightly hotter. Couple that with a larger 7.62 chamber, and the theoretical worry becomes that a hotter, weaker .308 casing will overexpand in a wider, looser 7.62 chamber resulting in case rupture, or worse. This is a theoretical worry that has an actual real life occurrence more akin to UFO sightings. People swear up and down they've seen rifles explode using this or that kind of ammo in this or that kind of chamber, but proving that such catastrophic failures actually occurred AND that they were due to incorrect cartridge/chamber combinations rather than something else, is like looking for unicorns. Can anybody post verifiable evidence that such a thing occurred and that it was definitely due to NATO brass in a .308 chamber? If you can, go ahead and make my day. If not, saying "but I saw it!" don't mean dick on the internets. If this was a legitimate verifiable phenomenon, SAAMI would certainly have already come out against a 7.62/.308 combination. The fact that they don't warn against it but they do against a 5.56/.223 combination, speaks volumes.

There will be people saying stuff in response like "well if you want to take your life into your own hands, then /whatever" or something like that. But guess what, every time you pick up a rifle and fire it you are taking your life into your own hands. Those people have yet to prove my life is more at risk if I fire a .308 in a 7.62 NATO chamber. Get over it, don't be a ***** and go enjoy the range!
All good except SAAMI doesn't cover warranty on your rifle. When in doubt check with manufacturer.
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Old 06-02-2013, 4:45 PM
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Maybe not at rare as a unicorn... From my own experance it can happen with 308 in a NATO rifle. Take from this what you will because other than for a conversion it proves nothing.
It was my experance that steel case russian 308 (marked as 308 on the box) in an FAL goes boom pretty good. Couple things to note; Steel case which is far less flexable and plyable and FAL tilting bolt which can stress the case base when locking. Was it the chicken or the egg? Dunno but a head seperation blew the guts out of my magazine. No injuries but my shorts had to be burned...
I have run plenty of brass case 308 through the same rifle but I do have to turn the gas down or the cycling becomes overly energetic. Beats the brass up pretty good too.
As for brass case going Kaboom, I have yet to experance that but I have had to do the pogo to free the action a number of times and have picked up cases missing primers and evedence of gas leaks. I only shoot NATO or my own hand loads from it these days. Can't afford to feed it anything else.
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Old 06-02-2013, 4:45 PM
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This is from the owners manual of the HK MR762 I just bought that is stamped 7.62x51. I guess checking with the maker of the weapon might give you some piece of mind though...

Designed to function with a wide variety of high quality 7.62 x 51 mm ammunition, the
MR762A1 uses a C.I.P. dimensioned chamber (a chamber with dimensions specified by
the Commission Internationale Permanente). The MR762A1 also functions reliably with
most quality Caliber .308 Winchester ammunition. The MR762A1 is being produced
with the same commitment to quality as German-made HK firearms. By using joint U.S./
German manufacturing, Heckler & Koch leverages the relative strengths of two continents
to make the preeminent semi-automatic 7.62 mm/caliber .308 type firearm, combining
the design innovations of the USA and Germany into one new product.
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Old 06-02-2013, 5:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xOperator View Post
I have about 5 1/2 cans filled with a mixture of of these below. Will these be hard to chamber in 308Win also?



I also have 2 full cans filled with loose rounds of these below, they have the same headstamp as whats pictured in the top box:
Hey, friend!
lol, jk.

Seriously though, can we meet up sometime in the next few weeks and I buy some off you if we negotiate a price?
I have had a hard time finding ammo for my new M1A. Hell, you can even shoot the thing if you want and if we meet at laguna or something.
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2013, 5:26 PM
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buffybuster buffybuster is offline
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Originally Posted by Meatwaggon View Post
I've done extensive research on this question and the related question: "can I shoot .308 ammo in a 7.62 NATO chamber?"

The answer to both is YES. No less an authority than SAAMI considers .308 and 7.62 to be the same cartridge, even though .308 is loaded slightly hotter and the casing is also slightly thinner. They do NOT have a warning against using one type of ammo in the other type of chamber. Contrast this to 5.56 vs .223; SAAMI does not consider these rounds to be interchangeable and specifically warns against using 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

The various criticisms of using .308 in a 7.62 chamber and vice versa are well-known. A 7.62 chamber is roomier than a .308 chamber in order to accommodate dirt, mud and other battlefield condidtions as well as varying tolerances due to different NATO countries of manufacture. A 7.62 cartridge tends to have greater (more permissive) tolerances than a .308 and thus some 7.62 cartridges will jam .308 chambers more readily, even though theoretically both cartridges have identical exterior dimensions.

A .308 casing is also slightly thinner than a 7.62 casing, and can be loaded slightly hotter. Couple that with a larger 7.62 chamber, and the theoretical worry becomes that a hotter, weaker .308 casing will overexpand in a wider, looser 7.62 chamber resulting in case rupture, or worse. This is a theoretical worry that has an actual real life occurrence more akin to UFO sightings. People swear up and down they've seen rifles explode using this or that kind of ammo in this or that kind of chamber, but proving that such catastrophic failures actually occurred AND that they were due to incorrect cartridge/chamber combinations rather than something else, is like looking for unicorns. Can anybody post verifiable evidence that such a thing occurred and that it was definitely due to .308 brass in a NATO chamber? If you can, go ahead and make my day. If not, saying "but I saw it!" don't mean dick on the internets. If this was a legitimate verifiable phenomenon, SAAMI would certainly have already come out against a 7.62/.308 combination. The fact that they don't warn against it but they do against a 5.56/.223 combination, speaks volumes.

There will be people saying stuff in response like "well if you want to take your life into your own hands, then /whatever" or something like that. But guess what, every time you pick up a rifle and fire it you are taking your life into your own hands. Those people have yet to prove my life is more at risk if I fire a .308 in a 7.62 NATO chamber. Get over it, don't be a ***** and go enjoy the range!
While I agree with most everything you said, the possibility of case head separation is REAL, not theoretical.

I had a Beretta BM59 years back that was operated fine with 7.62x51 ammunition but if I shot Winchester brand .308Win (150gr) ammunition, you would get case head separations about 25% of the time. Not super dangerous as the action was in battery, but certainly a nuisance.

It this situation common; no it is not. But it can and has occurred and it's better to side on being safe, when speaking about generalities. So generally speaking, it is ACCEPTABLE practice to shoot 7.62x51 ammunition in a .308Win chamber, but would not shoot .308Win ammunition in a 7.62x51 chamber, unless it has been .308Win headspaced checked. If it headspaces within tolerance then fire away...... though be mindful of the different pressure curves for certain semiautos.
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  #38  
Old 06-02-2013, 6:37 PM
Meatwaggon Meatwaggon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
While I agree with most everything you said, the possibility of case head separation is REAL, not theoretical.

I had a Beretta BM59 years back that was operated fine with 7.62x51 ammunition but if I shot Winchester brand .308Win (150gr) ammunition, you would get case head separations about 25% of the time. Not super dangerous as the action was in battery, but certainly a nuisance.

It this situation common; no it is not. But it can and has occurred and it's better to side on being safe, when speaking about generalities. So generally speaking, it is ACCEPTABLE practice to shoot 7.62x51 ammunition in a .308Win chamber, but would not shoot .308Win ammunition in a 7.62x51 chamber, unless it has been .308Win headspaced checked. If it headspaces within tolerance then fire away...... though be mindful of the different pressure curves for certain semiautos.
I would more convinced if you had actually done controlled studies with plenty of photographic documentation comparing 7.62 and .308 ammo in that Beretta of yours. As it is, your post constitutes anecdotal information without the weight of systematic testing (or pics) to control for other possibilities, such as a bad batch of ammo. Surely in all this time since the 1950's SOMEONE did systematic, well-documented testing in a suspect chamber, given this topic comes up pretty much every single year? No? Not one? Not a single one in the last 60-odd years? Like I said, I'll believe in a unicorn when you actually put one in front of me. I'm thinking SAAMI has the same opinion of these types of stories.
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Old 06-02-2013, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LBDamned View Post
a little off topic - but in the same genre... where are you getting mil surp 7.62? (probably something already on hand?)

I ask, because I'd like to find some
http://www.glensoutdoors.com/Federal...MJ-p/xm80c.htm
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Old 06-02-2013, 7:39 PM
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