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  #1  
Old 11-28-2007, 2:36 PM
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Default Value of truing and blueprinting actions

Alright.. there's plenty of hype regarding truing actions and blueprinting.. but I have to ask if it is for accuracy or just a smoother running action? Yes.. I understand what is physically done.. but what is the value of it?

This weekend, I will argue that simply bedding a factory action and recrowning the factory barrel can CONSISTENTLY make a factory 700P shoot .5 MOA groupings center to center at 100 yds.

Would it be fair to say that 2 5-shot groupings on the same sheet of paper will be a sufficient to prove my point on a initial informal basis? I'll do more groupings another day since I don't have that many rounds loaded up. Actually.. I'll do a third grouping to see how well the 168 gr. Nosler Custom Competition bullets does compared to the SMK. Hope there's no wind.. anyone want to join me out at Burro?

I'll of course post my results regarless of if I confirm of reject my hypothesis.
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2007, 2:48 PM
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there is a problem with your testing. the issue is that it should be done over several groups within a limited amount of time. meaning, the barrel should be shot hot and not when it's just cold.

that is why if i ever get the opportunity in the future, i want to videotape my findings. i want to use my custom r+d rifle and nayt's rifle which is almost the same to mine expect the twist rate is 1:10 while mine is 1:11. but almost identical.

then i want to take Joe's build which will probably take a few months, since i now need to order parts and do the exact testing with the same ammo used within the same lot#.

i say at least 50 rounds within 20 minutes should be fired, and all group sizing should be averaged out to determine final grouping size. i expect all three rifles to do a mininum of 1/2moa or i would think there is a quality issue somewhere. this is using high end stocks, barrels, etc. all three rifles should hold 1/2moa as expected by the competition shooters out there.

Jason, if yours can do that, hey why spend all that money on a custom rifle right? let's prove it true or false!

shoot if your rifle can hold 1/2moa all day, all long. why the hell should anyone blueprint their action, buy an expensive barrel, stock, etc when a Stock 700 P with bedding can do the same? i'm sure shooters out there want to know if there dollars are being wasted on just "glamour" products. what work and what doesn't is the question.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 11-28-2007 at 2:58 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PistolPete75 View Post
shoot if your rifle can hold 1/2moa all day, all long. why the hell should anyone blueprint their action, buy an expensive barrel, stock, etc when a Stock 700 P with bedding can do the same? i'm sure shooters out there want to know if there dollars are being wasted on just "glamour" products. what work and what doesn't is the question.
That's exactly what I want to know!

I hear ya.. but like I said, it's just a initial informal finding to prove that it's capable of .5 MOA in the first place.

The next step will be more rounds + more groups - slow fire
Then we can do the same number of rounds + same number of groups - rapid fire.

I will of course want to use a machine rest when doing it on a formal basis.

We'll see what I come up with this weekend while shooting off a bipod and rear "sand sock." I'd go get a rest.. but it's just for fun.
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Old 11-28-2007, 3:00 PM
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no worries, when your ready to test your rifle out in a few weeks let me know. i'm having a special contraption being made up to hold down a rifle for testing purposes which will eliminate all shooter skills.

i always root for the underdog! whoot whoot. if your rifle can out do all three, wouldn't that just be the day! gunsmiths out there are going to hate us. i am pretty dam confident though, that r+d and joe's rifle will hold 1/2moa all day long on a hot barrel.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 11-28-2007 at 3:10 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 3:32 PM
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1/2 MOA is all you NEED.
BAH.

1/4 MOA is what you WANT.

If my custom AR barrels won't shoot 1/2 MOA, something is wrong with the shooter or ammo.
I have a bunch of customers that routinely shoot sub 1/2 MOA with autoloaders.
For a bolt gun to be worthwile, it really should show you some 1/4 to 1/3 MOA groups.
Not consistently mind you, but they had better be popping up daily.
Every group from a fixed rest should go 1/2 MOA or better.

Keep in mind that this group is from an autoloader:

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Old 11-28-2007, 3:37 PM
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Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2007, 3:43 PM
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Yet at the same time you've helped somewhat prove my point assuming you're stating facts. If those groups are achievable from a autoloader then certainly it may cast some doubt on the value of trueing and blueprinting. I realize i'm comparing apples to oranges here.. but I'm just using whatever data is available to me until I see some valid empirical proof.

I'm just taking this a step further and trying to achieve .5 MOA accuracy without custom parts such as the barrel.

Peter.. thats another thing to consider in your testing. If you're going with a custom barrel, you may want to test with just the barrel changed before testing with the new barrel + trueing/ blueprinting. This way you'll be controlling for the variable of the barrel.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2007, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post
Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.
Just trying to figure it out. I'm not saying i'm right or that my factory rifle is a butt kicker.. but i'm willing to put my question to the test! Like any other "scientific study," I need a hypothesis to start off with and am just trying to gather some data as informal as it may be. Besides.. I always hear about people just buying the rifles and stripping it down to customize so I want to see just how well I/ it can shoot without dumping a bankroll on it.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:05 PM
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Some guns yes, some guns no. There are guns that will never shoot 1/2 MOA no matter what is done with them. There are some factory guns that will shoot 2s and 3s all day long. The amount of work that you put into an action depends on what the initial condition of the action/barrel are.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2007, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
If you're going with a custom barrel, you may want to test with just the barrel changed before testing with the new barrel + trueing/ blueprinting. This way you'll be controlling for the variable of the barrel.
You can't change the barrel before doing the truing as the barrel would no longer fit into the threads properly.
You could do some of the truing and then re-set the factory barrel, but I doubt you would see much change.
It's the better barrel that makes most of the difference, even without the truing.
The truing is just something you do because it corrects for really FUBAR receivers.
Not ALL receivers are FUBAR, but you can't easily tell if one was or not without actually DOING the truing work.
By the time you have the receiver setup in such a way to as measure if it's FUBAR or not, you might as well just true it and not worry about measurements.

For example, I true have trued the fronts of AR receivers as well.
Those sub 1/2 MOA groups come from premium quality barrels with all sorts of truing done while the barrel is being made.

Here's an example of measuring AR receiver face runout:


The runout gets removed in the same setup:
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2007, 4:16 PM
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Expounding on barrels...

Most factory bores are not straight.
Now, take a crooked barrel blank and profile it.
What do you get?
Un-even barrel wall thickness.

What happens when steel heats up?
It expands.

What happens when there's more steel on one side of the barrel to heat up?
It expands away from the side with more thickness.

This is why it's important to shoot "hot" groups and more important to see IF (first) a barrel wanders and WHERE (secondly) it wanders and (lastly) HOW MUCH it wanders.
A perfect barrel with a straight bore and even barrel wall thickness is not going to wander nearly as much as a crooked one.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2007, 4:20 PM
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Truing the action/boltface will make mating surfaces square. We all know that. This will help to ensure that the bullet is seated squarely in the chamber each time, or concentric to the bore. Another given. This repeatability is whats desired and will make the rifle shoot consistently. The bullet gyrating eccentrically down the bore is something even the best crown can't fix. Trueing will also allow the rifle, as it heats up, to continue to shoot to POI, albeit, the groups may open up. My Savage, as it heats up, will begin to push my POI about 1-1.25 MOA to the right. My guess is the mating surface of the barrel nut is not square to the receiver (or vice versa) or the barrel nut mating surface isn't square to the threads. As it heats up, one side will expand more than the other and, poof, misses abound. FWIW, the barrel is COMPLETELY free floated.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:22 PM
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My factory remmy barrel as it heats up throws the last round in a 5 shot group to the right about .75 moa.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Expounding on barrels...

Most factory bores are not straight.
Now, take a crooked barrel blank and profile it.
What do you get?
Un-even barrel wall thickness.

What happens when steel heats up?
It expands.

What happens when there's more steel on one side of the barrel to heat up?
It expands away from the side with more thickness.

This is why it's important to shoot "hot" groups and more important to see IF (first) a barrel wanders and WHERE (secondly) it wanders and (lastly) HOW MUCH it wanders.
A perfect barrel with a straight bore and even barrel wall thickness is not going to wander nearly as much as a crooked one.
Great post! This is something most don't understand. A quality barrel is one that will do more than shoot .5MOA groups while you let it cool for each string.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
I'm just taking this a step further and trying to achieve .5 MOA accuracy without custom parts such as the barrel.
The biggest single improvement you can do to a factory barrel is to cut a good crown on it.

I see this over and over and over in AR's that I work on.
It's not uncommon for a barrel to shoot 30% smaller groups after just a crown job.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
My Savage, as it heats up, will begin to push my POI about 1-1.25 MOA to the right. My guess is the mating surface of the barrel nut is not square to the receiver (or vice versa) or the barrel nut mating surface isn't square to the threads. As it heats up, one side will expand more than the other and, poof, misses abound. FWIW, the barrel is COMPLETELY free floated.
Cut the barrel in half.
Measure the wall thickness all the way around.
I see 0.020" or more as COMMON to factory barrels.
If you don't want to cut a barrel in half, come over to my shop.
I have about 100 cut-off barrel stubs and a pair of calipers or even a tubing wall thickness micrometer if you want to knock yourself out measuring them all.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
Just trying to figure it out. I'm not saying i'm right or that my factory rifle is a butt kicker.. but i'm willing to put my question to the test! Like any other "scientific study," I need a hypothesis to start off with and am just trying to gather some data as informal as it may be. Besides.. I always hear about people just buying the rifles and stripping it down to customize so I want to see just how well I/ it can shoot without dumping a bankroll on it.
It will definitely be a nice little academic exercise. Time permitting, I'd be glad to contribute to the testing.
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Cut the barrel in half.
Measure the wall thickness all the way around.
I see 0.020" or more as COMMON to factory barrels.
Most likely. Regardless, the addition of a barrel nut, with mating surface and threads, just introduces more opportunity for deviation from "square."

ETA: Once I get a couple 700 receivers, and my SPR build setup with decent optics, I'm sure I'll be spending plenty of time in your shop.

Last edited by rksimple; 11-28-2007 at 4:30 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 4:28 PM
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The addition of a barrel nut, with mating surface and threads, just introduces more opportunity for deviation from "square."
Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.
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Old 11-28-2007, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mute View Post
Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.
that is my intended goal. i'm not knocking r+d. his stuff is the best on this side of the coast. shoot, i'm spending almost 3k on my build with Randy. i want to see equal results is what i'm saying. be it 1/4 or whatever moa it turns out to be. R+d will be the benchmark rifle. enough said, right? i know i got lofty goals. how can I compare to r+d? Randy Cain is a godsmith. Yes, I agree. I can dream right? If you don't ever try, you will never succeed in life.

strenuous tests will be done, and yes on a hot barrel. otherwise what's the point, right? just trying to turn a dream into a reality.

don't know why your sooo angry Randall. I have no ill will against you, and I thought we were on the same team. You do ar15s, and Joe does 700s. That is what you said, right? All I want to say Randall is I have no ill will against you. I always look at things with a big picture. I don't let little things get in the way. Nayt's rifle is a perfect candidate for this task. I wish you would join in our project, but that is up to you. It's almost an exact match to my current build. Wouldn't it be nice to participate and get some nice creditability out of this? It's my pocket book that is taking the hit on this project, and i am garanteing all work performed to high quality standards. Don't hate, participate. It can be a AR15barrels/ Bones' Brigade Armory project. The whole point of this project is not to make tons of money. It's just something enjoyable that Joe and I like to do. For a couple of grand, it's worth taking a little risk, right?

Imagine this guys, a high quality custom rifle built within 4 weeks from the time you place the order for less pricing than the competitors. Customer service is key I think. That's always been my business motto. As long as there is a market, there's an opportunity.

Last edited by PistolPete75; 11-28-2007 at 5:29 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.
+1.

I see gunsmiths talk bad about the multi-piece bolt of the Savage until they figure out that a floating bolthead centers itself and makes it shoot more accurately.
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Old 11-28-2007, 5:46 PM
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I see gunsmiths talk bad about the multi-piece bolt of the Savage until they figure out that a floating bolthead centers itself and makes it shoot more accurately.
Anyone ever notice that AR bolts can also self center to some degree?
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Old 11-28-2007, 6:08 PM
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Thanks for the explanations on truing, guys. Seeing it in layman's terms was sure a lot easier than trying to understand it through the laws of thermal dynamics/ expansion

Well.. I'll do my test this weekend and see what happens! I need to put the theory to the test.
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Old 11-28-2007, 7:25 PM
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You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
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Old 11-28-2007, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.
The bolt head yes. The barrel nut, not so much. The threads have to be square to the face of the nut. Thats why SSS will true the nut as well on custom work. The face of the nut then has to be square with the receiver, too. Even though its relatively self-centering, you run into the same problem with expansion as you do with a non-centered bore.

The bolt head design rocks as you get quite a bit of lug engagement with it floating.
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Old 11-28-2007, 7:41 PM
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You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
I'm past 5k on my Savage 308. Well into 2k on the 12fv. Most of the contributors to this thread do shoot their rifles quite a bit.

Adam-you buyin' a new SH IOR?
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Old 11-28-2007, 8:04 PM
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Im shure some shoot their rifles alot, and some dont. But I wouldnt waiste that much money if I wasnt totaly into shooting. (unless the new girl says im not allowed to go as much, but Shes the first communist ive dated....shes "open" to new things she says)

As soon as the new shipment comes in im hoping to have my name on one. I can use another FFP scope. I got the premier 6.5-20x on my 308 now, and im moving it to my 30-06 next weekend when I pick it up.

My AR has lost total interest with me right now. Im hoping she will like shooting and ill let her use it. That gives me an excuse to get the 338 stiller tac action to build my little baby up. The 338 in AICS 2.0 with 5-25x S&B
300gr SMKS are the choice. Also cant forget about the AR10 in 308, will be my most used rifle ive ever had. Hoping to run out the barrel in 1 year, and run 500+ rounds an month. Prolly throw the IOR SH scope on that. Rock 24" barrel 1-11.25 barrel for 155s Scenars, and 175gr SMKS. And LC brass to a hot 2950 FPS, dont care about case life.
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Old 11-28-2007, 8:16 PM
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And LC brass to a hot 2950 FPS, dont care about case life.

2950 in a gas gun? Watch out for flying parts! J/k.

Can't wait to see the 338 Stiller. Are you going to get the 5-25 S&B with mil turrets? I'm looking at the DT mil turrets and P4fine reticle, but midway doesn't stock them. Cheapest I've been able to find is 2650. Maybe theres a discount if I buy 2...
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2007, 8:33 PM
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You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
Need to get out and shoot?

My Savage 110 is on it's third barrel right now after wearing out a 243 and a 22.250 barrel already. The barrel on it now is one is getting replaced after the spring ground squirrel season because it's on it's third season and will be gone also.

I have over 5,000 rounds through a Remington 308, the jump to the lands is over .130" but it will still hold 1 MOA so it hasn't had it's barrel changed yet.

As far as not being able to shoot, when you take a coyote at over 700 yards tell me about it.

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Old 11-28-2007, 8:38 PM
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As far as not being able to shoot, when you take a coyote at over 700 yards tell me about it.
I got a squirrel at 550 at 5 dogs...does that count?

You shoot there much, Frank?
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Old 11-28-2007, 8:40 PM
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Damn, that dude's ugly.

That's a perfect example of why you don't post pictures of yourself on the internet.
You don't see Nayt and I doing that.
We KNOW that we are ugly as sin.
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Old 11-28-2007, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cypriss32 View Post
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
1200 and 500 are not high round counts - hell Savannah is pushing 3500 on her present barrel (her 3rd) and my Chandler is a close 2nd with 2650. Damnest thing is I still can't shoot worth .02 cents. But . . . I can "point and click" pretty good.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cypriss32 View Post
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
If we're pulling out the tape measures...

1966 rounds in my competition AR (Service Rifle) from October 2006 to present.
4000+ rounds in my practice AR from February 2007 to October 2007 (just rebarrelled, 66 rounds in new barrel).
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Old 11-29-2007, 5:51 AM
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Not high? I had the rem for under 7 months, and the savage for around 2 months. We will see how the coming months are, if i move out with some friends, and next semesters 18 units, I hope to still shoot. But partys are the upmost priority right now. Hell i might even meet a better girl that i can marry. This weekend im gona test some scenars out of my rifle. Any OAL to work from, same say in lands, some say mag lengh (for you S/A guys)
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Old 11-29-2007, 6:16 AM
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Not high? I had the rem for under 7 months, and the savage for around 2 months. We will see how the coming months are, if i move out with some friends, and next semesters 18 units, I hope to still shoot. But partys are the upmost priority right now. Hell i might even meet a better girl that i can marry. This weekend im gona test some scenars out of my rifle. Any OAL to work from, same say in lands, some say mag lengh (for you S/A guys)

The scenars have been good to me at an OAL of 2.830. It has a pretty good jump at that OAL and still shoots great. I wouldn't jam them.
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Old 11-29-2007, 6:18 AM
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I got a squirrel at 550 at 5 dogs...does that count?

You shoot there much, Frank?
I like shooting the little buggers running around on the 500 meter line but I haven't been there in the last year or so. I like their benches for load development but a rancher here lets me shoot on his place and it a lot closer to town.



Randall,

I know I'm ugly but at least I'm a good shot!
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  #37  
Old 11-29-2007, 7:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cypriss32 View Post
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.
i would most guys here are not keyboard commandos, but shooters. hell, i put about 300-400 rounds of .308 down my barrel a month.
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  #38  
Old 11-29-2007, 8:10 AM
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Enough talk.. I couldn't care less if somebody blew 20,000 down their barrels. It boils down to how good you are may it be after you shot 500 or 5K rounds. For all I know, all a person has had access to is a 100 yd range where all they do is benchrest.

I vote that if a person wants to challenge the skill and experience of another, they do it at the range or match

Alright cypriss.. I have absolutely no idea how you shoot even with your high round count which must count for something, but i'm always up for a challenege.. anybody want in? I'm always up for some friendly competition!
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Old 11-29-2007, 8:15 AM
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The scenars have been good to me at an OAL of 2.830. It has a pretty good jump at that OAL and still shoots great. I wouldn't jam them.
I liked my SMKs at 2.830.. but if the projectile had that little burr at the end of it adding 0.005, I would experience reliability issues with my mag. Strangely enough 2.815 seems to be a sweet spot for me.
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Old 11-29-2007, 8:24 AM
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I liked my SMKs at 2.830.. but if the projectile had that little burr at the end of it adding 0.005, I would experience reliability issues with my mag. Strangely enough 2.815 seems to be a sweet spot for me.
i keep my 168s at 2.800 oal. but my scenars in my new rifle is going to be 2.830 as recommended by Randy.
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