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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-18-2013, 4:32 PM
dieselpower65 dieselpower65 is offline
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Default remington 700sps or 700sps tactical??

Im looking to get a remington 700 in 300 win mag which is better for long range shooting and whats the differences between the 700sps and the tactical
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2013, 5:23 PM
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I think the tactical has a shorter barrel. I may be wrong.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2013, 5:26 PM
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The tactical is a 20" barrel vs 26" and with a houge stock vs whatever stock the 26" comes with. I don't think they make a tactical model chambered in 300 win mag though only in .308 and .223
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Old 05-18-2013, 5:27 PM
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The varmint has a 26" barrel which gives you more velocity than the 20" tactical model.
The varmint model is the better choice for longrange shooting.
The tactical model is better for people that only shoot to 300yds from a concrete bench and are mainly concerned with looks over function.
The varmint model is better for people that want to be able to hit small targets at distances beyond 300 yds.

The 300win mag is a poor cartridge choice for a first longrange gun.
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Old 05-18-2013, 5:31 PM
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that's what I got Randall. a .300 win magazine sendero sf ii. so :-P
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  #6  
Old 05-18-2013, 5:33 PM
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What's the difference in velocity between the 20" and 26" barrel and what's the point in yards where the bullet goes transonic. The way I understand it when the bullet goes transonic that's when accuracy may suffer.

Edit:: I know its a general question but say .308
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  #7  
Old 05-19-2013, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The varmint has a 26" barrel which gives you more velocity than the 20" tactical model.
The varmint model is the better choice for longrange shooting.
The tactical model is better for people that only shoot to 300yds from a concrete bench and are mainly concerned with looks over function.
The varmint model is better for people that want to be able to hit small targets at distances beyond 300 yds.

The 300win mag is a poor cartridge choice for a first longrange gun.
wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
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Old 05-19-2013, 7:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhena81 View Post
What's the difference in velocity between the 20" and 26" barrel and what's the point in yards where the bullet goes transonic. The way I understand it when the bullet goes transonic that's when accuracy may suffer.

Edit:: I know its a general question but say .308
as an example:

168gr FGMM goes subsonic (1134fps) from my .308 SPS tac at 975 yards.............
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Old 05-19-2013, 8:20 AM
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The SPS in .300 Win Mag has a 26" sporter contour barrel, the SPS Tactical has a 20" varmint contour barrel. The tactical has a Hogue stock, which is an improvement over the bottom-line synthetic on the SPS.

The SPS Varmint has a 26" varmint contour barrel (and the throw-away stock), and I think it is the better choice for getting started in long range shooting. The largest caliber in which it is offered is .308 Win, but what better cartridge to learn on?!?!

Long range shooting is a very practice-intensive discipline. Practicing with a .300 Win Mag (out of a 20" barrel!) will turn you into a fisherman pretty quick. A fisherman with no money.

My advice would be to hone your skills with a .308 with a heavy barrel that won't heat up too quickly.

Good luck, have fun, and protect your hearing!
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  #10  
Old 05-19-2013, 11:38 AM
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and whats the difference between the varmint and the sps? Im looking at the sps in 300 win mag because its on sale for memorial day.
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  #11  
Old 05-19-2013, 12:35 PM
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The 700 SPS has a 24" (26" for the .300 Win Mag) sporter (lighter) profile barrel. Great for hunting, walking around, very versatile, but it will heat up faster, and it's not the first choice for a lot of rounds off the bench.

The 700 SPS Varmint has a 26" varmint (heavy) profile barrel. It is a lot heavier, and it really lends itself to the kind of shooting you're looking at. The weight makes it a little more stable off the bags, and most guys can shoot a heavier barrel more accurately than a lighter barrel. The heavy barrel heats up more slowly, which is an advantage when the round count starts to climb.

Prices are very similar, and neither is expensive. Both come with the flexible throw-away synthetic stocks, but most guys replace the stocks with something that fits them anyway. The triggers are usable for starters.

Last edited by Khromo; 05-19-2013 at 1:22 PM..
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  #12  
Old 05-19-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post
wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
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  #13  
Old 05-19-2013, 12:58 PM
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If you want an entry solid long range shooter than an SPS varmint in .308 will serve you well and won't break your budget Upgrade the stock to something like a MacMillan or Manners with some good glass and you will be set.
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  #14  
Old 05-19-2013, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhena81 View Post
What's the difference in velocity between the 20" and 26" barrel and what's the point in yards where the bullet goes transonic. The way I understand it when the bullet goes transonic that's when accuracy may suffer.

Edit:: I know its a general question but say .308
It's not the subsonic velocity/distance that we care about as much as the amount of windage we have to hold.
You can tell the difference on target between a 20" and 26" barrel at 400yds.
You can still make hits with shorter barrels, but you have to be better at gauging the wind.
The extra velocity of the longer barrel gives you a wider variance in your wind doping ability where you will still make hits on a fixed-size target.
Looking at it another way, with equal wind doping ability, you can hit smaller sized targets when you have a longer barrel.
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Old 05-19-2013, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post
wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
Come say that after spending some time actually shooting at 800yds instead of just regurgitating what you read online.
You can post all the facepalm smilies you want, but I do this stuff all the time and teach it too.
I know what I'm talking about...
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2013, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post
wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
if there's one guy I would not question on long range shooting...it's Randall.

Last edited by MrElectric03; 05-19-2013 at 4:29 PM..
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  #17  
Old 05-19-2013, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
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wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
Come back when you know what your talking about.
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Old 05-19-2013, 6:00 PM
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I went from a 20" barrel on my .308 to a custom 26" barrel, so i can speak on it. It does make things a lot easier, .308 gets pushed around in the wind enough as it is so extra velocity helps.
But it isn't completely night and day. If a 26" .308 is a 1000yard rifle I wouldn't call a 20" a 300-400y rifle. it really depends on your target size.

Myself, my biggest steel targets are around 1moa - so I welcomed the 26" barrel.
Im moving from a 22" to a 28" on my 6.5 for the same reasons.
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Old 05-20-2013, 4:58 AM
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Come back when you know what your talking about.


Last time out, I put 14/15 shots on a 6 inch steel plate @ 520 yards........does that qualify me to speak ------ in your world???
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Old 05-20-2013, 5:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrElectric03 View Post
if there's one guy I would not question on long range shooting...it's Randall.
right because others ( you know nothing about ) couldn't possibly have any experience with this gun.............or any knowledge of long rang shooting.......
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Old 05-20-2013, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Come say that after spending some time actually shooting at 800yds instead of just regurgitating what you read online.
You can post all the facepalm smilies you want, but I do this stuff all the time and teach it too.
I know what I'm talking about...

Well, sorry master..........I haven't shot 800 yards, but I have shot a little past 500 yards with my SPS tac........... Just because you "do it all the time" and you "teach" it means that your opinion is the final authority, huh? Believe it or not, there are others with experience ( and, yes, beyond "reading online" )
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Old 05-20-2013, 6:03 AM
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If you haven't shot past 800 then you really don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 05-20-2013, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post
Well, sorry master..........I haven't shot 800 yards, but I have shot a little past 500 yards with my SPS tac........... Just because you "do it all the time" and you "teach" it means that your opinion is the final authority, huh? Believe it or not, there are others with experience ( and, yes, beyond "reading online" )
Why don't you actually post why you think he's wrong instead of just saying wrong?

Just saying wrong makes it seem like you have no idea what you are talking about. If you actually posted reasons you probably wouldn't have gotten flamed
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:18 AM
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Last time out, I put 14/15 shots on a 6 inch steel plate @ 520 yards........does that qualify me to speak ------ in your world???
You probably missed the one shot because of wind. A longer barrel would help you in the wind.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:01 AM
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Well, sorry master..........I haven't shot 800 yards, but I have shot a little past 500 yards with my SPS ..........
"A little past 500yds" is very much like shooting at 300yds or 400yds.
800yds and beyond is a different world.
Go try it before you assume that the skill involved in shooting more distance is a linear scale...
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:03 AM
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Last time out, I put 14/15 shots on a 6 inch steel plate @ 520 yards........does that qualify me to speak ------ in your world???
You are qualified to speak in the short range and intermediate range world.
The longrange world is beyond 600yds.
You are not yet qualified to speak in that world.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post
wrong...........on every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity.
You should come out to one of the precision rifle matches AR15 Barrels host. Or attend one of their precision rifle clinics and you can help explain every point but the 26" giving a little more velocity is wrong.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:49 AM
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Randall,

I have a question, im too shooting both a SPS Tac in .223 and .308 at my local 500 yard FTR match. I do notice that using the .223 can be more challenging especially when the wind is blowing. Other than a barrel swap which I plan to do once I shoot my barrel out, what would you recommend doing to help with the gap that 20" barrel gives?I been toying around with a hotter load to push up volocity to account for wind is this a better way to go?

Thanks for the advice.

Current Loads
.223 69 SMK 21.5 8208XBR 2.27OAL
.308 168 SMK 41.5 8208XBR 2.82OAL
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Old 05-20-2013, 3:07 PM
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Randall,

I have a question, im too shooting both a SPS Tac in .223 and .308 at my local 500 yard FTR match. I do notice that using the .223 can be more challenging especially when the wind is blowing. Other than a barrel swap which I plan to do once I shoot my barrel out, what would you recommend doing to help with the gap that 20" barrel gives?I been toying around with a hotter load to push up volocity to account for wind is this a better way to go?

Thanks for the advice.

Current Loads
.223 69 SMK 21.5 8208XBR 2.27OAL
.308 168 SMK 41.5 8208XBR 2.82OAL
On the 223, either remove the spacer from the BDL magazine box or change to a DBM setup that allows you to load to 2.500" OAL.
Then you will be able to run 75gr bullets and have more room for more powder.
The 75 AMAX's do better in the wind than 69's.
The extra OAL will give you more room for powder.
The more room you have, the more powder you can burn.
Burning more powder at the same max pressure level gives you more velocity.
More powder/velocity may even let you go to 77smk's in that 1:9 twist barrel.
77smk's would definetly help you in the wind.

I ran your load through quickload and there is some velocity to be gained with a couple more grains of powder in your current load without changing anything but the charge weight.

Code:
Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 69, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1380
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.270 inch or 57.66 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder             : ADI AR 2206H

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.064% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.6   90    21.00   2521     973   41446   7139     91.6    1.106
-09.6   91    21.25   2549     996   42823   7233     92.1    1.090
-08.5   92    21.50   2578    1018   44246   7327     92.6    1.074
-07.4   94    21.75   2606    1041   45717   7418     93.1    1.058
-06.4   95    22.00   2635    1063   47237   7508     93.6    1.042  ! Near Maximum !
-05.3   96    22.25   2663    1086   48808   7596     94.1    1.027  ! Near Maximum !
-04.3   97    22.50   2691    1110   50433   7682     94.5    1.012  ! Near Maximum !
-03.2   98    22.75   2720    1133   52114   7766     94.9    0.998  ! Near Maximum !
-02.1   99    23.00   2748    1157   53852   7847     95.4    0.983  ! Near Maximum !
-01.1  100    23.25   2777    1181   55651   7926     95.8    0.969  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  101    23.50   2805    1205   57513   8003     96.1    0.955  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.1  102    23.75   2833    1230   59440   8078     96.5    0.942  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1  103    24.00   2862    1255   61436   8150     96.9    0.928  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2  104    24.25   2890    1279   63503   8219     97.2    0.915  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.3  105    24.50   2918    1305   65645   8286     97.5    0.902  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.3  106    24.75   2946    1330   67865   8350     97.8    0.889  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by  3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    101    23.50   2845    1240   60278   8045     97.4    0.936  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    101    23.50   2761    1168   54770   7934     94.6    0.976  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Just for fun, here is that same data in a 30" F class barrel:
Code:
Cartridge          : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .224, 69, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1380
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.270 inch or 57.66 mm
Barrel Length      : 30.0 inch or 762.0 mm
Powder             : ADI AR 2206H

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.064% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.6   90    21.00   2746    1156   41446   4574     94.9    1.422
-09.6   91    21.25   2775    1180   42823   4624     95.3    1.402
-08.5   92    21.50   2804    1205   44246   4673     95.7    1.383
-07.4   94    21.75   2833    1229   45717   4721     96.1    1.364
-06.4   95    22.00   2861    1254   47237   4767     96.5    1.345  ! Near Maximum !
-05.3   96    22.25   2890    1280   48808   4812     96.8    1.327  ! Near Maximum !
-04.3   97    22.50   2919    1305   50433   4855     97.2    1.308  ! Near Maximum !
-03.2   98    22.75   2947    1331   52114   4897     97.5    1.291  ! Near Maximum !
-02.1   99    23.00   2975    1356   53852   4936     97.8    1.274  ! Near Maximum !
-01.1  100    23.25   3004    1382   55651   4975     98.0    1.257  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  101    23.50   3032    1408   57513   5011     98.3    1.240  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.1  102    23.75   3060    1434   59440   5046     98.5    1.224  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1  103    24.00   3088    1461   61436   5079     98.8    1.207  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
In the 308, get some Hornady 178 BTHP bullets.
They will be better in the wind than 168 SMK's.
Push them as fast as you can keep them accurate.
Do your accuracy testing at 300yds or more as 100yd accuracy is NOT a telltale of what you can expect on target at 400yds and beyond.
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  #30  
Old 05-20-2013, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wt4 View Post


Last time out, I put 14/15 shots on a 6 inch steel plate @ 520 yards........
Here are two groups I shot at 500yds and 600yds.
These were not handpicked groups.
These were the ONLY groups I fired that day on the 8" circle target.
They were fired under a time constraint, laying in the gravel at sac valley with a harris bipod and a squeeze bag.
That means there was no chance to wait for the wind conditions to be favorable.
I had to shoot them within the 45 seconds I had the target up.
The 500yd group is ho-hum average, maybe 3".
The 600yd group is a hummer, 1.05".

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  #31  
Old 05-20-2013, 3:45 PM
Shovel Shovel is offline
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Back to the op:

SPS = 26" light contour barrel and cheap-ish stock

SPS Varmint = 26" heavy-ish contour barrel and cheap-ish stock

SPS Tactical = 20" heavy-ish contour barrel and nicer Hogue stock

A heavier barrel is generally better for target shooting and generally longer barrels give you more velocity for your shots. There are exceptions to every rule. This should get you started. I would recommend getting a heavier barrel .308 to build your fundamentals and then move to a bigger round when you are more comfortable with long range shooting. The 700 is a great rifle with an extensive aftermarket. You can always change out/upgrade parts later as you learn more. Feel free to PM me if you have and other questions.
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Old 05-20-2013, 4:12 PM
SDmtnbkr SDmtnbkr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The varmint has a 26" barrel which gives you more velocity than the 20" tactical model.
The varmint model is the better choice for longrange shooting.
The tactical model is better for people that only shoot to 300yds from a concrete bench and are mainly concerned with looks over function.
The varmint model is better for people that want to be able to hit small targets at distances beyond 300 yds.
Ok so I'm ready to buy my first bolt gun and really dive into precision shooting but from everything I've looked into the SPS AAC-SD is the best bang for my buck but it's got a 20" barrel. Eventually I'm going to switch out the stock anyway, so which 700 would be the best to start with then?? ....in .308 of course

I've heard that they all have different twist rates and to stay away from the 1/12. Would love your thoughts on this.

700 SPS
700 SPS Varmint
700P
700P LTR

....also, thoughts on fluted barrels in these models? I think only the LTR has a fluted barrel, but just wondering if they degrade performance to do vibration or anything. I've always heard the heavy barrels were better for precision.

Last edited by SDmtnbkr; 05-20-2013 at 4:14 PM..
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Old 05-20-2013, 5:18 PM
Raptor1Ronin Raptor1Ronin is offline
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Randall,

Awesome information, I will try some of this. I worked up some 75AMAX's and gave up because I thought my 1/9 twist wouldn't stabilize the round. I shot them at 100 than at 200 and couldn't get the same as what I was getting with my 69. You have given me new hope I will keep trying. This week at my match I'm going to try my 23.5 8208xbr w/69 grn, I had some good groupings with this charge in the past. Ill let you know.
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Old 05-20-2013, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDmtnbkr View Post
700 SPS
700 SPS Varmint
700P
700P LTR
Probably the varmint or a 700 sendero/police model.

I have an LTR and it is accurate the few times I've shot it but the shorter barrel means that unless I use 2000MR powder I don't get quite enough velocity for the ever-popular 1000 yards. It has a much better stock than the POS ones that SPS versions come in though.

Really you want 22 or more inches of barrel especially if you are using factory ammunition for really long shots.

Inside of 800, most any barrel length will technically work, but again, more velocity is always better.
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Old 05-20-2013, 8:52 PM
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ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDmtnbkr View Post
Ok so I'm ready to buy my first bolt gun and really dive into precision shooting but from everything I've looked into the SPS AAC-SD is the best bang for my buck but it's got a 20" barrel. Eventually I'm going to switch out the stock anyway, so which 700 would be the best to start with then?? ....in .308 of course

I've heard that they all have different twist rates and to stay away from the 1/12. Would love your thoughts on this.

700 SPS
700 SPS Varmint
700P
700P LTR

....also, thoughts on fluted barrels in these models? I think only the LTR has a fluted barrel, but just wondering if they degrade performance to do vibration or anything. I've always heard the heavy barrels were better for precision.
I avoid the fluted barrels.
The reduced weight just increases felt recoil.
The machining on the outside of the barrel makes the barrel's zero shift more than a solid barrel as they heat up.

If you are switching stocks anyways, get a 700 varmint.
If you want a good gun out-of-the-box, get a 700p.
The 700p and the SPS varmint are the same basic barreled action.
The main difference is that the 700p comes with a perfectly functional composite stock with an aluminum chassis in it and a parkerized finish while the SPS varmint comes with a truly crappy injection molded stock and a rough black oxide finish.
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AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
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Glock, XD and M&P pistols, Benelli and Remington shotguns: barrel, sight, trigger and receiver work.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and weekend appointments available.
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  #36  
Old 05-20-2013, 9:16 PM
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The 700p also comes with a better trigger than the SPS Varmint. I think that it's the 40x trigger or something like that. It is a lot smoother than the one in the SPS Varmint. I am very happy with my 700p. I regularly shoot sub-MOA with GMM ammo.
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Old 05-20-2013, 9:45 PM
SDmtnbkr SDmtnbkr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I avoid the fluted barrels.
The reduced weight just increases felt recoil.
The machining on the outside of the barrel makes the barrel's zero shift more than a solid barrel as they heat up.

If you are switching stocks anyways, get a 700 varmint.
If you want a good gun out-of-the-box, get a 700p.
The 700p and the SPS varmint are the same basic barreled action.
The main difference is that the 700p comes with a perfectly functional composite stock with an aluminum chassis in it and a parkerized finish while the SPS varmint comes with a truly crappy injection molded stock and a rough black oxide finish.
Thanks! I would opt for the 700P and not have to worry about the stock but the original reason I was looking at the 20"ers was because I drive and old school Bimmer with a tiny trunk. So now if I get a 26" it's gonna have to be sitting in the passenger seat next to me on the way to the range until I can get a folding stock for it.
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2013, 9:53 PM
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My SPS Tac .308 does at most 2" at 300 yards and I can pull off an average of 3" groups at 500 yards.

SPS Tac 1-12 twist shooting 175 SMK reloads.


Also didnt read all the posts but the SPS Tac does not come in 300 WM
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDmtnbkr View Post
I drive and old school Bimmer with a tiny trunk.
I can't help you with this problem other than to recommend getting a truck or SUV.
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AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
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  #40  
Old 05-20-2013, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I can't help you with this problem other than to recommend getting a truck or SUV.
AHAHAHHA
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