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  #1  
Old 05-14-2013, 10:57 AM
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Default AR barrel shot out?

I've put about 6500 rounds through my AR in the last three years. Barrel is LMT chrome-lined 14.5", 1/7 twist. It used to shoot 2-3MOA groups @100 yds with 55grn ammo, now rounds are scattering all over the place in about a 8" circle. After cleaning the gun I benched & rested it on sandbags yesterday, and with match grade 69grn ammo got sub-MOA groups. I tried the 55grn again and got flyers all over the place again.

So, is the barrel done & dusted or is there anything that can be done to make it work with lighter bullets? I've still got about 1K rounds of 55grn that I'd prefer to shoot rather than sell to get expensive match grade ammo.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:04 AM
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Sounds like the barrel is done. Replacement barrels aren't too expensive for AR's. One might be harder to find right now. You could check with LMT and see what the same barrel will run you.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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That's strange, 6500 should still be relatively early in an barrel's life span.. I would give it a few more tries with the 55g before coming to any conclusions just yet.. Iron sights or optic?
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:08 AM
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Apparently 6500 is a lot for an AR barrel. Google says to swap every 4000
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:09 AM
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What 55gr ammo, what were the weather conditions, what if any optic? If it's shooting sub moa, it's definitely not shot out.

You should have A LOT more life in that barrel.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:17 AM
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Some folks did a test on ammo and barrel life

The bi-metal jackets and rapid fire will cause a barrel to be shot out by 5,000 rounds.

Federal ammo was about 10,000 rounds

And by shot out- 1) 200 fps velocity drop or 2) group size increases by 2"+

The good news is that now you can upgrade to any barrel length, profile and or match grade you want!
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
What 55gr ammo, what were the weather conditions, what if any optic? If it's shooting sub moa, it's definitely not shot out.

You should have A LOT more life in that barrel.
This is what I'm feeling. What type of 55gr ammo are you using? Do the groups open up with all 55gr ammo you use? Have you tried other 55gr ammo brands?
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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I have an 16" Armalite upper with about 5k rounds. I'm doing about 2 MOA with optics(obviously the rifle is more accurate that I am). I started to use optics a few months ago but didn't really try to shoot tight groups.

OP you might want to try different 55gr ammo to see how it performs.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:32 AM
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Lucky Gunner did the test on barrel wear using copper jacketed bullets vs bimetal jackets

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

interesting read
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  #10  
Old 05-14-2013, 11:38 AM
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Default Some addt'l details

Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
What 55gr ammo, what were the weather conditions, what if any optic? If it's shooting sub moa, it's definitely not shot out.

You should have A LOT more life in that barrel.
Last 3 range sessions, sunny & warm, light winds. I'm using an Aimpoint T1 (4MOA dot) that's been loctited and not removed for its entire lifetime. Upper is an LMT MRP so there's NO flex in the rail. Haven't used irons in 3 years, not sure if they're even zeroed, but I got 2MOA groups with the T1 and 69grn match ammo yesterday.

Ammo has all been Federal XM193 55grn brass-cased bulk since I got the gun.
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  #11  
Old 05-14-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkusp View Post
...with match grade 69grn ammo got sub-MOA groups...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkusp View Post
...but I got 2MOA groups with the T1 and 69grn match ammo yesterday...
Give the barrel a good scrubbing and try again. You first said sub MOA with the 69grain bullets, then said 2 MOA so I'm thinking different things but get that barrel spic and span and see what happens.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2013, 12:44 PM
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Your barrel is fine. Using a 4moa red dot is the problem, if you're trying to get an accurate reading past 50yrds.

That lucky gunner article is crap....BTW.
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Old 05-14-2013, 1:18 PM
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Did you give the barrel a really deep clean? A bottle of copper remover is cheaper than a new barrel
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2013, 1:30 PM
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Your barrel is shot out. Send it to me for some experimentation for my ar pistol. Haha...
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Old 05-14-2013, 1:34 PM
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If you're shooting sub MOA with good ammo, then it doesn't sound like it's shot out. If you've always fired Federal 55 grain through it before and got 2MOA, but aren't now, maybe it's just the lot of ammo you're using now. Try some from a different lot, or get another kind of 55 grain and see what happens.
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Old 05-14-2013, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
Apparently 6500 is a lot for an AR barrel. Google says to swap every 4000
That's got to be either for cheap barrels, or for match shooters. A good barrel for regular (non-match) use should last way longer than 4000 rounds. Hell, the military puts way more than 10,000 down the pipe before they retire them...granted, by then, they aren't as accurate as most of us would like, but they can still hit black from 500 yds.
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Old 05-14-2013, 2:00 PM
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1/7 Twist just may not like 55 gr boolits. But 8 moa groups is really excessive.......
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2013, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
Your barrel is fine. Using a 4moa red dot is the problem, if you're trying to get an accurate reading past 50yrds.

That lucky gunner article is crap....BTW.
How is a 4 moa dot crap past 50 yards? Unless you're completely obscuring the target(which would mean it's smaller than 4" at 100 yards), you can still shoot accurately with a 4moa dot. You don't have to center the dot in the center of the target, you can align the top or bottom of the dot with a reference point and still shoot groups smaller than 4moa. Even just aligning it with one of the larger rings on a single bullseye target will let you accomplish this, and a basic mechanical adjustment to elevation will put your group in the center of the target.

It's not ideal, but it certainly isn't impossible to do.
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Old 05-14-2013, 2:41 PM
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^ I agree completely about the Rds. People make too much of it and forget that if you have good fundamentals you can still make hits.
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Old 05-14-2013, 3:14 PM
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I didn't read that the 55 grainers were keyholed or tumbling. If you can shoot sub MOA with the other bullets, I would look to the ammo first. Also, even without a bore-scope you can look inside the barrel to see how the lands are looking.
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Old 05-14-2013, 3:25 PM
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OP I'd put a scope on it and see how it does from a bench at 200+ yards, 6500 seems a bit early. If it was shot out I'd expect keyholing as well as larger groups.



Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
Your barrel is fine. Using a 4moa red dot is the problem, if you're trying to get an accurate reading past 50yrds.

That lucky gunner article is crap....BTW.

How is it crap? I think they pretty clearly documented that steel jacketed BULLETS accelerate wear... Unlike the typical bullcrapping mall ninjas who always say "I've shot 1,000's of rounds of steel case with no problems" they actually proved it.
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  #22  
Old 05-14-2013, 4:25 PM
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Have you cleaned out the copper? I'd a thorough copper cleaning before calling the barrel shot.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstaff View Post






How is it crap?
I stopped reading anything Seal20 had to say after he said using a RDS is the problem, and everyone else should have, too.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/453382_.html
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkusp View Post
I've put about 6500 rounds through my AR in the last three years. Barrel is LMT chrome-lined 14.5", 1/7 twist. It used to shoot 2-3MOA groups @100 yds with 55grn ammo, now rounds are scattering all over the place in about a 8" circle. After cleaning the gun I benched & rested it on sandbags yesterday, and with match grade 69grn ammo got sub-MOA groups. I tried the 55grn again and got flyers all over the place again.

So, is the barrel done & dusted or is there anything that can be done to make it work with lighter bullets? I've still got about 1K rounds of 55grn that I'd prefer to shoot rather than sell to get expensive match grade ammo.
The barrel is done.
Replace it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:24 PM
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It was never stated the red dot was crap. It's just more difficult to make a moa grouping with a fit that covers 4" @ 100yrds.

You would be better off with your irons, during this diagnosis phase than a 4moa dot.

Red dots are excellent for making combat effective hits and for speed, just not ideally suit for marksmanship.

That lucky gunner article seems like a marketing ploy to me.

But hey, if you read it on the internet it must be true. Right G60?
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
That's strange, 6500 should still be relatively early in an barrel's life span..
If you believe the internet...

However, in real life, 5000 rounds is realistic round count for 5.56 AR barrels to have their group sizes double from new.
Match rifle competitors will usualy swap 223 barrels after 2500 rounds due to accuracy dropping off.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
It was never stated the red dot was crap. It's just more difficult to make a moa grouping with a fit that covers 4" @ 100yrds.

You would be better off with your irons, during this diagnosis phase than a 4moa dot.

Red dots are excellent for making combat effective hits and for speed, just not ideally suit for marksmanship.

That lucky gunner article seems like a marketing ploy to me.

But hey, if you read it on the internet it must be true. Right G60?
The RDS has nothing to do with the OP getting 8" groups with 55gr. bullets and then sub moa groups with 69gr., so there was absolutely no reason for you to mention it(other than to make silly statements), unless the aimpoint T-1 the OP is using has one hell of a strange defect.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
It was never stated the red dot was crap. It's just more difficult to make a moa grouping with a fit that covers 4" @ 100yrds.
Actually, if you were shooting at 4"circles at 100yds, the 4 moa aiming point would work REALLY well for groups.
You would be able to see shadowing by any mis-alignment of the dot to the target.
If you are shooting at 3" dots, then the 4" dot would be harder to see the shadow as well.
A pair of perpendicular lines as the target makes very precise aiming possible with a dot.
You just use the lines to divide up the dot into 4 pieces of pie...
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The barrel is done.
Replace it.
So even a shot out barrel will group sub-moa with match ammo?
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:50 PM
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Following the logic above i need a 12moa to improve my kill shots while hunting.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:55 PM
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So even a shot out barrel will group sub-moa with match ammo?
Yes.
The same barrel SHOULD shoot sub 1/2 moa when it was new.
So if the group sizes have DOUBLED, I would consider it "shot out".

Also, the OP has changed his tune from "sub moa" to "2 moa with match ammo".
2 moa with match ammo is definetly shot out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkusp View Post
I got 2MOA groups with the T1 and 69grn match ammo.
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Old 05-14-2013, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
Following the logic above i need a 12moa to improve my kill shots while hunting.
If you want to demonstrate how you have no idea what you're talking about, sure I guess.

A circular 4moa dot lined up with a circular 4" target at 100 yards, that's a pretty easy sight picture.
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Yes.
The same barrel SHOULD shoot sub 1/2 moa when it was new.
So if the group sizes have DOUBLED, I would consider it "shot out".

Also, the OP has changed his tune from "sub moa" to "2 moa with match ammo".
2 moa with match ammo is definetly shot out.
This is one of the reasons why I have randall of ar-15 barrels on speed dail....he knows what hes talking about ...rock on randall
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seal20 View Post
Following the logic above i need a 12moa to improve my kill shots while hunting.
Kid around all you want, but if you want some proof, get some paper plates.
Put them up at 50yds, 100yds and 200yds.
Shoot at EACH of them with a 4 moa dot.
I bet the groups are MORE ACCURATE at 200yds than they are at 50yds and 100yds.
This is because the 4moa dot is filling 8" of the plate at 200yds, but only 2" and 4" at 50yds and 100yds.
It is EASIER to see how well centered you are when your dot is closer to the size of the target.

With that 12 moa dot, you would be able to tell if you are holding off the top of bambi or dead on the chest at 100yds.
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:10 PM
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do you handload ?

best accuracy requires proper selection

you could probably handload your way to a 55 grain but i would not jump to the conclusion your barrel is toast

overstablilization is real its spinning so fast that it is going nose up after the apex of the trajectory are you noticing any signs of keyholes

also all 55 grain is not the same some is hotter than other bullet shapes vary

have you tried remington mc
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
do you handload ?
Probably not:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkusp View Post
I've still got about 1K rounds of 55grn that I'd prefer to shoot rather than sell to get expensive match grade ammo.
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:30 PM
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Sub moa with a T-1 and a 4 moa dot? Huh, I would have to see that to believe it... I can't shoot moa with a colt 6940 and TA31 acog. Butanyone can be a sniper on the internet I guess...
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Old 05-14-2013, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
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Sub moa with a T-1 and a 4 moa dot? Huh, I would have to see that to believe it...
Don't assume that everyone shares your lack of skill.

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Originally Posted by dennis1979gm View Post
I can't shoot moa with a colt 6940 and TA31 acog.
Target choice make ALL the difference.
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  #39  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:05 PM
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IPSICK IPSICK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Yes.
The same barrel SHOULD shoot sub 1/2 moa when it was new.
So if the group sizes have DOUBLED, I would consider it "shot out".

Also, the OP has changed his tune from "sub moa" to "2 moa with match ammo".
2 moa with match ammo is definetly shot out.
Didn't catch the claimed group size change. 2moa with match is shot out if shooter is typically capable of sub with match.
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  #40  
Old 05-14-2013, 7:40 PM
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I seriously want a usedor shot out barrel... randel you have any you wanma get rid of?
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