Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > California handguns
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:28 AM
LateBraking's Avatar
LateBraking LateBraking is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Pacific Standard Time
Posts: 612
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
Can you curse here? Because I want to know how the fukc can someone shoot from 25yrds like that? What do you aim at? You can't aim directly at the bullseye, can you? Give me tips too.

Do you guys use the push/pull method to stabilize your grip?


And why the hell are snap caps so expensive?
12 bucks on Amazon (shop42a.com) for five of them, maybe 13 bucks after tax? Free shipping? Not too bad. They're reusable (don't throw them away), and make great tools for practicing at home. Lets you safely dry fire so you can practice your trigger pulls.
__________________

“I don't know if we can ever get all the way back to good. But I think we have a chance to do better. And if we wake up every day and try to make things better, eventually we might find that better is good enough.” ― Carolina, RvB
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:35 AM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,271
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
Can you curse here? Because I want to know how the fukc can someone shoot from 25yrds like that? What do you aim at? You can't aim directly at the bullseye, can you? Give me tips too.

Do you guys use the push/pull method to stabilize your grip?


And why the hell are snap caps so expensive?
I shoot with the sights on target. I tried the 6 o'clock hold and my shots always ended up low.

I do use the push/pull method to create isometric pressure to not only to have a steady hold, but to combat recoil for a quick follow up shot.

I am shooting the A23 target at 25 yards with the 1911, so the target is pretty large. I normally shoot the A23 at half the original size with my rimfire with just irons at 25 yards. That is when things get pretty darn small and it looks just like a large dot.

Not sure why snap caps are so expensive. I am guessing cause you rarely buy more than 1 pack in a particular ammo size? They are pretty nice though for dry fire training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
12 bucks on Amazon (shop42a.com) for five of them, maybe 13 bucks after tax? Free shipping? Not too bad. They're reusable (don't throw them away), and make great tools for practicing at home. Lets you safely dry fire so you can practice your trigger pulls.
I could be wrong, but Amazon typically only does free shipping on orders over $25.
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ P-07 Duty OD Green / 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9c / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short

Last edited by Dattebayo; 05-11-2013 at 11:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:45 AM
Uncle Leo's Avatar
Uncle Leo Uncle Leo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 190
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
I shoot with the sights on target. I tried the 6 o'clock hold and my shots always ended up low.

I do use the push/pull method to create isometric pressure to not only to have a steady hold, but to combat recoil for a quick follow up shot.

I am shooting the A23 target at 25 yards with the 1911, so the target is pretty large. I normally shoot the A23 at half the original size with my rimfire with just irons at 25 yards. That is when things get pretty darn small and it looks just like a large dot.

Not sure why snap caps are so expensive. I am guessing cause you rarely buy more than 1 pack in a particular ammo size? They are pretty nice though for dry fire training.



I could be wrong, but Amazon typically only does free shipping on orders over $25.
At 25 yrds, the target is fuzzy to me. I have horrible eyes.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:46 AM
Dattebayo's Avatar
Dattebayo Dattebayo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,271
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
At 25 yrds, the target is fuzzy to me. I have horrible eyes.
I was born with horrible eyes with about 675 degrees each eye, but $6000 worth of laser eye vision and now I have 20/15 vision .
__________________
Česká Zbrojovka CZ 452 Trainer 22LR / CZ 712 - 26'' Barrel 12ga
Česká Zbrojovka CZ P-07 Duty OD Green / 2014 P-07 Black / 75B 9mm SAO / 75B 40SW SAO / P-01 NATO
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 / M&P 9c / M&P 9Shield / M&P 15T / M&P10
Mossberg MVP 16.25" .308 / Maverick Model 88 Security 8-Shot 12ga / Hunter O/U 12ga
Sphinx SDP Black Line 9mm
Walther PPK Interarms .380
Beretta 950B Minx .22 Short
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:50 AM
tommyid1's Avatar
tommyid1 tommyid1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Big Sky Country, Montucky
Posts: 1,642
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

300 rds is not enough. Focus on grip stance and follow through. Act like a robot and keep doing it. You will get better
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:50 AM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 3,646
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
At 25 yrds, the target is fuzzy to me. I have horrible eyes.
That's okay. What you want to look sharp is the front sight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:53 AM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,952
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
At 25 yrds, the target is fuzzy to me. I have horrible eyes.
At 25 yards, the target should be fuzzy, unless you,re using a scope.


Sent from iPhone
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:58 AM
tbc's Avatar
tbc tbc is offline
Smite Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 3,952
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
That's okay. What you want to look sharp is the front sight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Yep. Like this:




Sent from iPhone
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:59 AM
ElDub1950's Avatar
ElDub1950 ElDub1950 is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: El Dorado County
Posts: 4,906
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Never underestimate the value of training classes. I improved more in my first 2 day class than in 6 months shooting every week.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-11-2013, 2:02 PM
knucklehead0202 knucklehead0202 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Whittier, East LA/North OC county
Posts: 3,867
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

most people here missed a very important point. it may just be the gun! certain guns just don't work for certain people. i'm an experienced shooter but have never been a great pistol shooter, it's just not my thing. that said, i've owned and shot many different pistols and now i own 2. aside from some i plain can't afford, these are the only 2 i've ever shot well. i'm not talking lots of bullseye at 25yds well, but well enough to hit a man within that range, which is good enough for me. anyhow, i've shot some pistols that no matter how much i practiced i was lucky to hit the ground with the damn things. sometimes you just have to feel out what's the right gun for you. all the technique in the world won't help if something just doesn't fit. rent some guns at a range and see how it goes....
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 05-11-2013, 2:35 PM
esy esy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NorCal
Posts: 440
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklehead0202 View Post
most people here missed a very important point. it may just be the gun! certain guns just don't work for certain people. i'm an experienced shooter but have never been a great pistol shooter, it's just not my thing. that said, i've owned and shot many different pistols and now i own 2. aside from some i plain can't afford, these are the only 2 i've ever shot well. i'm not talking lots of bullseye at 25yds well, but well enough to hit a man within that range, which is good enough for me. anyhow, i've shot some pistols that no matter how much i practiced i was lucky to hit the ground with the damn things. sometimes you just have to feel out what's the right gun for you. all the technique in the world won't help if something just doesn't fit. rent some guns at a range and see how it goes....
No one missed that. Most everyone has been reiterating what you're alluding to, but in different words. It's not the gun and it rarely ever is. It's the user. Whether or not the firearm "fits" the person is a moot point. One should still be able to hit dead, center mass.

It's the user, not the firearm. OP understands that and is trying to make it work.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 05-11-2013, 4:51 PM
9mmepiphany's Avatar
9mmepiphany 9mmepiphany is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River City
Posts: 7,469
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Bee View Post
uhmm, the target I posted is clearly labeled 'pistol' not revolver.. see pistol definition if you're not sure of the difference.

these are also not strong hand/weak hand only targets.
That's odd as right under the title Pistol Target, it says Right Hand. If these targets aren't right or left hand specific, what do you think it means?
__________________
...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 05-11-2013, 5:03 PM
9mmepiphany's Avatar
9mmepiphany 9mmepiphany is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River City
Posts: 7,469
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
I normally shoot pistols Isosceles only.

...Definitely Isometric pressure ftw.
Those two statements are in direct conflict with each other

The Isosceles grip/stance/arm geometry was designed to supersede the isometric tension used in the Weaver shooting grip/stance/arm geometry. Enveloping the gun evenly in 360 degrees is a foundation to the Isosceles, when you start pushing and pulling you're reverting to the recoil control philosophy of the Weaver followers
__________________
...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 05-11-2013, 6:27 PM
9mmepiphany's Avatar
9mmepiphany 9mmepiphany is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River City
Posts: 7,469
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Bee View Post
I'm fully aware of the design intent of the original target pie slicing but it is MOST often reproduced for practical shooting and marksmanship training.. not only for one handed bull shooting as the professionals refer to it..
And responsible trainers have been trying to stop common use for a long time, but folks who don't seem to understand the differing force vectors being applied in the different grips and keep repeating the flawed advice. It all comes down to trigger control, but it needs a stable grip as a foundation and correct sight alignment...but everything is less important than trigger control

It is almost as bad as folks who believe in the original Double Tap technique...which was physically impossible

Quote:
The correction principles still apply to the hand in control of the weapon to some degree depending on the shooter.. support hand not withstanding.
Everything still applies to some degree. but it is especially harmful to introduce to new shooters who don't understand it's inherent flaws

Quote:
I'm not a professional gun racer but I am over 20 years experienced in pwc's, low light, cqb, etc.. in real world shooting situations, not on a stage. I am quite familiar with the practical application of these targets and training value.
Well, you just have to put in 10 more years to catch up ...and I'm familiar with their training value also; but then I used to shoot competitive air pistol (which can be a very humbling experience; but really helps your trigger control)

Quote:
It seems to me that the folks asking questions are beginners seeking basic advice to learn how to self improve.. not take the title from Rob Latham next week.

We're all just trying to help and spouting absolutes from a high horse is not doing these guys any good.. everyone takes instruction, applies skills, and learns just a little differently. Anyone that thinks they can cookie cutter everyone has never successfully taught.
Repeating or advocating flawed information isn't helping a new shooter. The chart provided is most useful to a shooter who already has some basic skills and is trying to tweak their technique.

You are correct that there are no absolutes. I've worked with shooters who have wrist rotation limitations or who were missing portions of digits. I've worked with a 10 year old girl, who could barely reach the mag release, with a technique that allowed her to perform emergency reloads at speed. I've taken new shooters...didn't own a pistol and didn't know how to load a magazine... and had them placing their shots within 3" at 7 yards within a couple of hours.

This is a video clip which addresses the shooting wheel. He isn't my favorite instructor, but he makes valid points:

__________________
...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale

Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 05-11-2013 at 6:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:00 PM
Uncle Leo's Avatar
Uncle Leo Uncle Leo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 190
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
And responsible trainers have been trying to stop common use for a long time, but folks who don't seem to understand the differing force vectors being applied in the different grips and keep repeating the flawed advice. It all comes down to trigger control, but it needs a stable grip as a foundation and correct sight alignment...but everything is less important than trigger control

It is almost as bad as folks who believe in the original Double Tap technique...which was physically impossible


Everything still applies to some degree. but it is especially harmful to introduce to new shooters who don't understand it's inherent flaws


Well, you just have to put in 10 more years to catch up ...and I'm familiar with their training value also; but then I used to shoot competitive air pistol (which can be a very humbling experience; but really helps your trigger control)


Repeating or advocating flawed information isn't helping a new shooter. The chart provided is most useful to a shooter who already has some basic skills and is trying to tweak their technique.

You are correct that there are no absolutes. I've worked with shooters who have wrist rotation limitations or who were missing portions of digits. I've worked with a 10 year old girl, who could barely reach the mag release, with a technique that allowed her to perform emergency reloads at speed. I've taken new shooters...didn't own a pistol and didn't know how to load a magazine... and had them placing their shots within 3" at 7 yards within a couple of hours.

This is a video clip which addresses the shooting wheel. He isn't my favorite instructor, but he makes valid points:


The guy said nothing about push/pull. Seems like most of these vids leave it out.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:10 PM
XDJYo XDJYo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NorCal-East Bay
Posts: 2,010
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Alright you guys. Back to your corners and cool off a bit ok?

I think we can all agree that each person can benefit differently from this thread because we all have different degrees of experience and all have different needs/wants. So let's keep this a great place to come.

Let's try to address the OP's initial quest for help, not scare him off.

My first suggestion to the OP is to take pictures of your targets after 10-20 rounds and post it here. I'm sure you will get a lot of excellent tips and suggestions. I know I've learned A TON from similar posts and threads on this and other forums.

Happy shooting and be safe!

P.S.-Speaking of pistol training, does anyone know of anybody who does/can teach out of Livermore? Looking for some one on one training perhaps. Or, maybe I'll start a new thread.

Thanks!!!
__________________
Les Baer 1911: Premier II w/1.5" Guarantee, Blued, No FCS, Combat Rear, F/O Front, Checkered MSH & LBC Double Diamond Grips
Springfield Armory Loaded 1911-Stainless
Glock Gen 4 G19 (Wifes)
Springfield Armory 4.5" XD-m 45 ACP
M&P Shield 9 (wifes)
M&P 15 (Mine)
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:48 PM
9mmepiphany's Avatar
9mmepiphany 9mmepiphany is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River City
Posts: 7,469
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Leo View Post
The guy said nothing about push/pull. Seems like most of these vids leave it out.
The video was addressing how the chart wasn't as valid as many believe when applied to shooters using a two-handed hold.

Push/pull isometric pressure is really another subject. At the beginning level it its negative effect of unequal pressure isn't as important as as trigger control. With proper trigger control, you hardly have to grip the gun at all to shoot it accurately. Its weakness becomes more apparent when you start considering shot to shot recovery.

It would really help if the OP would post a picture of his grip and his target...even better would be a video. We can all guess at his problem, based on out own experience, but it would just be guessing until we've seen him shoot.

That is why I also recommend that he seek out formal instruction. A couple of hours of 1:1 instruction would provide a solid basis for future improvement
__________________
...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-11-2013, 8:06 PM
XDJYo XDJYo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NorCal-East Bay
Posts: 2,010
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Watch these videos. Learn from him. Follow him. Love him.

Stance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Cf0WEeXZk

Grip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22msLVCtPk8

Trigger Control:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xa5JPLGIsU
__________________
Les Baer 1911: Premier II w/1.5" Guarantee, Blued, No FCS, Combat Rear, F/O Front, Checkered MSH & LBC Double Diamond Grips
Springfield Armory Loaded 1911-Stainless
Glock Gen 4 G19 (Wifes)
Springfield Armory 4.5" XD-m 45 ACP
M&P Shield 9 (wifes)
M&P 15 (Mine)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 9:27 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.