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  #1  
Old 05-10-2013, 10:04 PM
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Red face I'm a terrible shot....help a brother out

So I've been shooting my buddy's glock 17.....I put about 300 rounds through it on a couple of range trips, and I feel like my aim is not improving . since I can't really watch myself shoot, any tips or "good videos" I should watch.


Thanks
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:09 PM
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Have someone record you shooting. Then wait for the opinions to come pouring in.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2013, 10:13 PM
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Lots of dry fire practice! Try putting a shell casing on the slide when practicing. Pull trigger trying to keep the casing from falling off.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:18 PM
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Snap caps...and try to "stack" the trigger.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:20 PM
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I find the biggest problems when shooting handguns are typically either your trigger pull, your follow through, or flinching/anticipating the shot.

Trigger pull should be a smooth and deliberate action, that when you do pull the trigger, the gun should not move at all from its position. I dry fire my 1911 every day for about 15 minutes at random objects in my room and doing that has improved my shot a lot. If you slap the trigger or pull it too hard, it will adjust your aim point causing a miss.

I also find follow through rather important. Even though the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil is felt, I feel that holding the gun tight on the target and trying to keep it there through the recoil gives me greater groups. If I just pull the trigger and let the recoil go, I find that the shots point of impact changes slightly.

Also flinching and anticipating the recoil from a shot is the biggest newbie mistake. When I shoot polymer based handguns, I find I flinch a bit as the perceived recoil is a lot more than my 1911 and the polymer grips hurt my hands when the recoil hits.

Try doing these things and I am sure you will see some improvement. I am not the best shot, but I find my performance acceptable at 25 yards.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wamphyri13 View Post
Have someone record you shooting. Then wait for the opinions to come pouring in.
Ryan
Great idea.......next time I'm out I'll get video. Thanks....
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  #7  
Old 05-10-2013, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
I find the biggest problems when shooting handguns are typically either your trigger pull, your follow through, or flinching/anticipating the shot.

Trigger pull should be a smooth and deliberate action, that when you do pull the trigger, the gun should not move at all from its position. I dry fire my 1911 every day for about 15 minutes at random objects in my room and doing that has improved my shot a lot. If you slap the trigger or pull it too hard, it will adjust your aim point causing a miss.

I also find follow through rather important. Even though the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil is felt, I feel that holding the gun tight on the target and trying to keep it there through the recoil gives me greater groups. If I just pull the trigger and let the recoil go, I find that the shots point of impact changes slightly.

Also flinching and anticipating the recoil from a shot is the biggest newbie mistake. When I shoot polymer based handguns, I find I flinch a bit as the perceived recoil is a lot more than my 1911 and the polymer grips hurt my hands when the recoil hits.

Try doing these things and I am sure you will see some improvement. I am not the best shot, but I find my performance acceptable at 25 yards.


......thanks......if I can get consistent at 25 yards ill be happy lol......I'm usually kind of all over place :-/
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:26 PM
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It's wired because I feel like my aim is pretty good firing my AR (iron sites) and improves every trip to the range, hand gun is a different story
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:29 PM
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the easiest solution might be taking a handgun class.
There are plenty good options if you are in East Bay.
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  #10  
Old 05-10-2013, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post

I find my performance acceptable at 25 yards.

Acceptable? LOL! In MY book, this is ridiculously good

To the OP: What this CalGunner said!
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:42 PM
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how consistent are you trying to be at 25yds? getting within the 8 circle on a B27? getting within the 9 circle of a 25yd target? having tight groupings at 25yds takes a lot of practice. it's not impossible, but takes a lot of work.

start out at closer distances, figure out your grip, trigger pull, etc.

check this chart out, if you haven't yet.



shooting a handgun is very different from a long gun because the smallest and minutest changes in your grip can alter where you land on target. for instance, i've noticed that i shot a little low left from time to time and i couldn't figure out why. then, i noticed while doing some dry fire practice at home that if i put too much pressure on my off hand with my right thumb (i'm right handed) that the muzzle of my firearm would dip slightly. i began to be more conscious of that and i've been on target from that point on.

Last edited by esy; 05-10-2013 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:42 PM
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Lockwood2988, like the previous posters stated, focus on breath control, trigger control (squeeze vs pull), trigger reset, lots of dry firing and do use the photo posted by Killer Bee to self diagnose your problem. If you are still struggling, after doing your best to fix it, there is no shame in working with someone to help you get this handled.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:48 PM
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BTW, i haven't been able to find it and i know it's somewhere here on CGN, but there are some good videos out there on proper grip for a Glock. i'm sure Highlander (i believe that's his user name) will chime in sooner or later with pictures of proper grip and a good video or two.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:50 PM
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For me, it's all about trigger control. Start out closer at 7yds. Once your shots at 7yds create a single hole in your target, move back to 12-15 yards. Then back to 20-25. I don't mean a single hole as in the diameter of a bullet but more like a 1.5-2" diameter circle where they all touch.

If you can't get a 2" grouping at 7yds, getting even a 5" grouping at 25yds is just never going to happen.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trigger945 View Post
Acceptable? LOL! In MY book, this is ridiculously good

To the OP: What this CalGunner said!
Thanks . I guess I am often hard on myself as I normally shoot more target .22lr smallbore rifles. Training to hopefully one day join the US Shooting team .



For the OP, that handgun target is definitely a great way to identify what you are doing wrong. I personally use one similar and it is definitely an invaluable tool! For the record, before reading, researching, and practicing what I read online, I couldn't event hit paper at 10 yards with my 1911 when I first got it. I also have not been shooting handguns for long, maybe 6 months at most.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:29 PM
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I usually don't find much use for a laser on a pistol for anything other than training. A snap cap along with a bore laser (about 40 bucks at Big 5) can provide great feedback while dry firing. By simply placing a 2" dot across the room, one can work on steadying their grip and dry firing while trying to maintain the laser within the confines of the dot. You will be suprised how much you will learn about your grip and trigger control.
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  #17  
Old 05-10-2013, 11:39 PM
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Go to Reed's in Santa Clara and for $300 you can get 8 hours of instruction from Louis Awerbuck, an instructor for 30 years who was the RSO at Gunsite when Col. Jeff Cooper ran the place. Col Cooper basically invented 2 handed handgun shooting and the commonly used 4 safety rules.

The image that two others posted is for correction of 1 handed revolver shooting issues, not 2 handed shooting, so not very useful.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:42 PM
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Its your stance. You need to use a modified weaversosceles #7 stance.

But in all seriousness, if you don't already, stop anticipating the recoil. This was my biggest issue. Once I was told by a professional to stop anticipating it and actually let the recoil work FOR me and not AGAINST me, my groups shrank considerably.

And +1 for the dime or casing on the slide while dry firing. It will help you improve both your grip and trigger pull motion.

"Don't pull the trigger; squeeze it." - Some wise old shooter
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
Go to Reed's in Santa Clara and for $300 you can get 8 hours of instruction from Louis Awerbuck, an instructor for 30 years who was the RSO at Gunsite when Col. Jeff Cooper ran the place. Col Cooper basically invented 2 handed handgun shooting and the commonly used 4 safety rules.

The image that two others posted is for correction of 1 handed revolver shooting issues, not 2 handed shooting, so not very useful.
Sorry to sound ignorant, but what would be the difference in the target for single hand vs two hand shooting? Even in 2 hand shooting, only 1 hand operates the gun where the other is there just to apply back pressure on the shooting hands forward pressure.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:51 PM
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Theres all sorts of fundamentals that can be touched on but I am going to let others touch on those and talk about firing from the trigger reset.

Are you letting go of the trigger completely after the shot?
If you are, don't.
Hold the trigger back till after the shot and slowly let it out till you hear/feel the click.
That is the trigger resetting.
The trigger is now ready to go off with the slightest squeeze.

Shooting from the reset point is key. Practice this when you are dry firing.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:51 PM
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Some things that have helped me is really focusing on a smooth consistent trigger pull, when the gun goes off it should almost "surprise" you. That way you are not anticipating the shot and compensating/flinching from recoil.

Sometimes doubling up on hearing protection can help with this as well. Wear ear plugs and also ear muffs on top.

Also, if you have a buddy at the range with you, bring some snap caps and have your friend load your mag randomly inserting 2 or 3 snap caps into magazine so that you don't know which round the snap caps are. Then have your friend video record you shooting focusing on the hands/gun. Not like a youtube video shot from behind to show how cool you look, but a video of the grip and the way you are shooting. When you get to the snap cap, usually what will happen is you pull the trigger anticipating recoil and tighten up but because it's a dummy round nothing goes off and you will see on the video how you are manipulating the gun when you are shooting.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc426 View Post
Also, if you have a buddy at the range with you, bring some snap caps and have your friend load your mag randomly inserting 2 or 3 snap caps into magazine so that you don't know which round the snap caps are. Then have your friend video record you shooting focusing on the hands/gun. Not like a youtube video shot from behind to show how cool you look, but a video of the grip and the way you are shooting. When you get to the snap cap, usually what will happen is you pull the trigger anticipating recoil and tighten up but because it's a dummy round nothing goes off and you will see on the video how you are manipulating the gun when you are shooting.
+1 on this!
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:04 AM
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Get a pair of these.

http://www.bowhuntingoutlet.com/prod...FclxQgodpTEALA

I don't have accuracy issues, but I bought one for fun. Turned out it helped a few friends improve their skills.

Another friend bought a go pro and started using it at the range.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Sorry to sound ignorant, but what would be the difference in the target for single hand vs two hand shooting? Even in 2 hand shooting, only 1 hand operates the gun where the other is there just to apply back pressure on the shooting hands forward pressure.
Sounds like you shoot Weaver. Try Isosceles.

Don't just push/pull, pinch the receiver with your support hand thumb, pushing inward, and push inward with the palm of your primary hand directly below your trigger finger. So you're squeezing the frame. Now you're applying 360 degree pressure on the gun. It won't recoil the same way as 1 handed shooting. Too many people waste their support hand by tea-cupping or not applying 360 pressure.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
Sounds like you shoot Weaver. Try Isosceles.

Don't just push/pull, pinch the receiver with your support hand thumb, pushing inward, and push inward with the palm of your primary hand directly below your trigger finger. So you're squeezing the frame. Now you're applying 360 degree pressure on the gun. It won't recoil the same way as 1 handed shooting. Too many people waste their support hand by tea-cupping or not applying 360 pressure.
I normally shoot pistols Isosceles only. I never shot a pistol in the weaver stance. I have problems with the Weaver stance as being a photographer, I trained my eyes to be cross dominate, so they constantly change depending on the position of focus. Because in the Weaver stance, I can see more the side of the slide, my eyes tend to want to switch dominance. Being in the Iso stance, it allows the gun to be centered and there is less change in my dominate eye.

Teacupping the pistol grip is a very old method of shooting. If you are born after the 80's, I don't think anyone would know the tea cup style, as even on TV, they often hold guns properly.

Definitely Isometric pressure ftw.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Bee View Post
these types of targets are all legit for your use.. right or left handed as applies to you.

and as a few others mentioned, dry firing drills, analyzing your targets, shooting with experienced folks and above all.. accept consrtuctive criticism and you'll see improvements very soon..
I agree as I find those targets helped me out a lot in the past.
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Old 05-11-2013, 5:05 AM
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First of all those charts are for SINGLE handed Bullseye shooters. So start with the fundamentals of pistol shooting, stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. You to learn how to shoot, otherwise you will just keep trying to correct for the wrong things.

Google up Sevigny and Vogel, look at their stance and grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKc2w2sPxs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubqWMgxQt6k
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Old 05-11-2013, 6:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esy View Post
how consistent are you trying to be at 25yds? getting within the 8 circle on a B27? getting within the 9 circle of a 25yd target? having tight groupings at 25yds takes a lot of practice. it's not impossible, but takes a lot of work.

start out at closer distances, figure out your grip, trigger pull, etc.

check this chart out, if you haven't yet.



shooting a handgun is very different from a long gun because the smallest and minutest changes in your grip can alter where you land on target. for instance, i've noticed that i shot a little low left from time to time and i couldn't figure out why. then, i noticed while doing some dry fire practice at home that if i put too much pressure on my off hand with my right thumb (i'm right handed) that the muzzle of my firearm would dip slightly. i began to be more conscious of that and i've been on target from that point on.
If I can get anywear in between the 7th circal and stay consistent at 20yards I'd be happy......that's an interesting chart, I'm right handed and my shots always seem to be a lil to far left and ether up or down....
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Old 05-11-2013, 6:48 AM
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It could be the gun? It may not be a good match with you?
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dattebayo View Post
Try doing these things and I am sure you will see some improvement. I am not the best shot, but I find my performance acceptable at 25 yards.



Dang!

That's some awesomely super great shooting right there!

I can land one maybe 4 or 5 shots like this at 7-10 yards. I think I did this ONCE at 15 yards.


To the OP and the other giving suggestions/tips/tricks, this thread has been very useful to me too. I've been shooting less than a year and I find that my groups shrank A LOT after I first started shooting (shot ALL the time and dry fired a ton). But, then they seemed to get worse. Part of MY problem was that I wasn't shooting enough. Ammo is expensive and I would spread out my ammo between me and the wife, so I didn't get a whole lot of ME time on the range.

The thing that I KNOW I'm doing wrong is flinching. The problem I have is HOW do I stop doing that. Like I said before, I CAN land shots in the X or 10 ring at 10 yards. But, doing so consistently is really hard for me. It frustrates me since I KNOW I can do better and then I get worse.

I can dry fire practice a lot and that always goes great. I can balance a penny on the top of the slide and no biggie.

So, suggestions???

Thanks!!!
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickstarfish View Post
It could be the gun? It may not be a good match with you?
Yea......it's a buddy's glock....he lent me (nice guy right). Anyways I am in the market for a 9mm. But I'm leaning more to user error.....
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post


Dang!

That's some awesomely super great shooting right there!

I can land one maybe 4 or 5 shots like this at 7-10 yards. I think I did this ONCE at 15 yards.


To the OP and the other giving suggestions/tips/tricks, this thread has been very useful to me too. I've been shooting less than a year and I find that my groups shrank A LOT after I first started shooting (shot ALL the time and dry fired a ton). But, then they seemed to get worse. Part of MY problem was that I wasn't shooting enough. Ammo is expensive and I would spread out my ammo between me and the wife, so I didn't get a whole lot of ME time on the range.

The thing that I KNOW I'm doing wrong is flinching. The problem I have is HOW do I stop doing that. Like I said before, I CAN land shots in the X or 10 ring at 10 yards. But, doing so consistently is really hard for me. It frustrates me since I KNOW I can do better and then I get worse.

I can dry fire practice a lot and that always goes great. I can balance a penny on the top of the slide and no biggie.

So, suggestions???

Thanks!!!
Well for me, I typically walk myself through the shot, talking myself through it in my head. I find I avoid most mistakes that way.

Start out making sure your grip is good and the firearm is positioned right in your hand. Then line up your sights on target. I have a little free play in my 1911 trigger, but if you pull it till the first felt tension, that is when I know that just a little more will break the shot off. Make sure I am still on target, then squeeze the trigger and follow through.

Since you do dry fire and can land x hits, I think it is possibly you just rushing the shot. Take your time and work on the fundamentals and when this all becomes second nature and muscle memory, you can then start working on follow up shots, double tap, and more advanced shooting. But to start off, take it slow and make each shot count.

I don't compete in handgun competitions, but when i shoot, I always shoot for score, and I feel with that mentality, I slow things down and make shots count. Speed is worthless if you miss everything.
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  #33  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:33 AM
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I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.

Also, work on follow through. Be aware of where on the target the front sight is as the shot breaks and watch the front sight lift off that point as the gun recoils – all the time maintaining focus on the front sight.

Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer falls.

Think: front sight, press, surprise.

And come take one of our monthly Basic Handgun Classes in the East Bay.
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Old 05-11-2013, 7:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lockwood2988 View Post
Yea......it's a buddy's glock....he lent me (nice guy right). Anyways I am in the market for a 9mm. But I'm leaning more to user error.....
Lockwood, try out a 1911 in either 45 acp or 9mm. The 1911 weight is a bit more than the polymer frame guns, and because of that, perceived recoil is much less than smaller caliber polymer guns. I also love how it handles and the weight I find helps me stabilize aim. With those benefits for a new shooter, I think you would have an easier time at least not flinching.

I've tried all the polymer guns from 9mm, 40, and 45 and I just don't like them. Their recoil kicks so hard my hands hurt after just a mag.
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  #35  
Old 05-11-2013, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.

Also, work on follow through. Be aware of where on the target the front sight is as the shot breaks and watch the front sight lift off that point as the gun recoils – all the time maintaining focus on the front sight.

Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer falls.

Think: front sight, press, surprise.

And come take one of our monthly Basic Handgun Classes in the East Bay.
Thanks for this!!! Will have to check into your classes. I see them at Target Masters, which is more South Bay.
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  #36  
Old 05-11-2013, 10:05 AM
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Thanks for this!!! Will have to check into your classes. I see them at Target Masters, which is more South Bay.
Okay -- South Bay. But here are some photos to give you an idea.

Lecture --







Airsoft --





Live Fire --


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Old 05-11-2013, 10:11 AM
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Maybe this can help with analyzing your mechanics.

Good luck!

Target Analysis_CG.jpg
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:21 AM
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Record and re-watch later on, have your buddy load your magazines with only like 2-7 live rounds and the first bullet he put in make it a snap cap (so your last shot will be the snap cap) so he can see what you do when you shoot (helps find if you are pointing down before shooting or jerking/slapping the trigger), and use the below graph as general advice (not a bible or word of law, but can help you analyze what you are doing wrong). Also check your grip, stance, etc. I suck with weaver, my friend sucks with isoceles, different strokes different folks.

Don't worry, you'll get better. I'm still a terrible shot, but I was really really discouraged for the longest time. I took a lesson and tried out a few different things and it finally started clicking bit by bit. I still learn something new every time I go, and I have my amazing days and my terrible days.

Finally, it could be the gun. Glock 17's are great, but there is no single gun that is best for everyone in the world. If there was, everyone would be using the same gun.

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Last edited by LateBraking; 05-11-2013 at 10:27 AM..
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:09 AM
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Can you curse here? Because I want to know how the fukc can someone shoot from 25yrds like that? What do you aim at? You can't aim directly at the bullseye, can you? Give me tips too.

Do you guys use the push/pull method to stabilize your grip?


And why the hell are snap caps so expensive?

Last edited by Uncle Leo; 05-11-2013 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
Go to Reed's in Santa Clara and for $300 you can get 8 hours of instruction from Louis Awerbuck, an instructor for 30 years who was the RSO at Gunsite when Col. Jeff Cooper ran the place. Col Cooper basically invented 2 handed handgun shooting
Yup, he was ahead of his time in the '60's and '70's. By 1980 he was out of date.

OP, go to a range and rent a double action revolver. Dry fire it double action 50 times without loading a round. Then shoot a box of 38's double action. If you can manage a smooth trigger pull by the end, a Glock will be a piece of cake in comparison.
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