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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-23-2013, 9:08 AM
ARghhh ARghhh is offline
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Default 80% AR 15 legalities

I heard today that yesterday a law was passed making it illegal for metal fab shops to assist in the completing of rifles. I'd this the truth? Or was it always illegal. Also does this change the 80% selling being legal? Can you still buy and sell these legally?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:11 AM
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80% products would still be legal to buy or sell. But it sounds like you can no longer use someone's facilities and machinery to complete your personal firearm.

Doing it at home with your own mill or jigs and drill press is still legal.

I see no reason to do this other than close one avenue that might bypass registration. Whether you make it or buy it from a dealer a gun is a gun and the type of person who's going to go through the expense, time, and effort of building their own firearm from the ground up is most likely not the one you need to be concerned with.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:39 AM
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source?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:40 AM
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Any links? I'd like some more info as I was going to get one finished out soon.
Is this municipal? Has it been signed into law? Taken effect yet?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:42 AM
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:43 AM
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I don't know my fab shop guy just called me and told me. Said ATF contacted him and told him to stop.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:47 AM
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Aw, crap. I've got two 80% lowers sitting in here.

Looks like my only options now are to buy a jig and a mini-mill and learn how to use it.

Those are going to be some expensive lowers.

Then again if I machine another 10 it might be somewhat worth it...
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:55 AM
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hmmmm. That would mean (according to the written out letter from DOJ) that even renting a mill and completely programming it, setting it up, etc. yourself wouldnt be acceptable. Would the BATFE weigh in on this also or would it be just the CADOJ that matters?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:58 AM
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I think our friendly government people, who know what is best for us and watch over us so well, are worried that some people might have firearms that our big brother in the government does not know about. Now they will try to change the laws again to protect us from ourselves.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:03 AM
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I see no better reason to acquire an 80% lower than that the overlords wish for the lowly peasants to not have them

any thoughts on how this would work out for borrowing/renting someone's jig?
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:03 AM
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Has anyone spoken to Jason Davis? He is the only guy that seems to have seen the new ruling/decision/letter.
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:33 PM
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If this is the case I don't see why companies wouldn't make 90 percent lowers and leave it to the consumer to drill out the pin holes making the lower 100%. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a 90% type lower.
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:41 PM
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If I remember correctly the ATF considers 80% and under to be a paperweight. More than 80% and its a firearm.
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:45 PM
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No federal laws were passed yesterday.

Seems like ATF is making stuff up, but not having seen anything from them yet, can't be certain.
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Old 04-23-2013, 5:26 PM
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If this is true, I could see a market for one mill being sold regularly between calgunners. Terms of sale could be something like a small upfront deposit immediately, then full payment in 1 month unless resold back to original owner. It's a rental without being a rental.
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Old 04-23-2013, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodrowShootist View Post
If I remember correctly the ATF considers 80% and under to be a paperweight. More than 80% and its a firearm.
pleeeeeeez stop perpetuating the concept that it's all about "percentages".
"80%" is a complete misnomer. it was invented as a useful term to refer to partially-completed-but-still-non-gun "paperweights", but the whole concept that ATF uses some percentage-of-completion scale to determine status is completely unfounded.
the sooner folks stop trying to speak in percentages as if they are actually meaningful, the better.
it is either a gun, or it isn't.
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2013, 5:50 PM
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Hmm glad I finally got mine done at a build party a couple of weeks ago. This really sucks as I was hoping to get a couple more made.
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:39 PM
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystonn View Post
If this is true, I could see a market for one mill being sold regularly between calgunners. Terms of sale could be something like a small upfront deposit immediately, then full payment in 1 month unless resold back to original owner. It's a rental without being a rental.
No need to resell. One could lease a mini-mill and bring it home to machine the part. I'm actually thinking this could be a pretty good business idea at this point.
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:51 PM
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So this raises a question I have had for some tine but can't get a definitive answer on.

If you had an 80% lower & the government - CA or national - made AW illegal, made a gun grab or required us to reg our riflez would a no SN# having non branded lower be exempt or would they just ban by "feature"?

I'm trying to understand the real value of an 80% lower because if they ban AR models by "feature" then it still falls into getting banned. If they require AR registering and you do not as it has no brand or SN# you are still screwed if found with it no?

So really what is the benefit?
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:56 PM
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So technically can you just sell your 80% to the person who owns the jigs and machine for lets say $1? Then when it is a completed lower sell it back?

Then again since its a completed lower you would need to go to a FFL and go through DROS to transfer the now completed lower back correct?

Still cheaper than buying all your own machinery though
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAti0n View Post
So technically can you just sell your 80% to the person who owns the jigs and machine for lets say $1? Then when it is a completed lower sell it back?

Then again since its a completed lower you would need to go to a FFL and go through DROS to transfer the now completed lower back correct?

Still cheaper than buying all your own machinery though
The person doing the work then becomes the manufacture and needs a mfg FFL to do so.

Ad not as cheap as buying a completed one.
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:03 PM
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I contacted Juggernaut Tactical today and this is what they told me over the phone and posted on their website "We are no longer able to provide machining services due to new regulations introduced in the last few days." My question is.. Where did this new reg. come from??

Last edited by The504; 04-23-2013 at 7:06 PM..
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:06 PM
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The person doing the work then becomes the manufacture and needs a mfg FFL to do so.

Ad not as cheap as buying a completed one.
Gotcha.
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:11 PM
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FML....
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
No federal laws were passed yesterday.

Seems like ATF is making stuff up, but not having seen anything from them yet, can't be certain.
Tagged for interest on ramifications for shop/ tools rental from a non-company individual.
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:17 PM
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I bought an 80% and milled it out at a shop, I put it in the jig and pushed the button. I engraved my own SN. I spoke with local law enforcement about registering this if it was necessary. He told me that this was possible, but the whole point of having an 80% was to not register it. He was having his 80% milled at the same time as myself. The machinist told me that a large group of his customers were law enforcement/ SWAT. I have a strong feeling that the future holds some type of problem for the 80% lowers. Only LE will be able to have these unregistered rifles like that crazy a-hole that was running around shooting people 1-2 months ago. Don't get me wrong, I think cops are great (except when being ticketed), its the powers that be who will "F" this up for me. A couple of weeks after completing my lower I was in line at well known gun store in LA. The two guys in front of me had purchased two 80% lowers and two LPK's, they had shaver heads with LA tattoos on the back. I wasn't very excited to see that. This is a double sided sword. I'd be willing to bet that they will be part of my 80% problem.
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:23 PM
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No laws passed.

My understanding is that it was an internal decision/ruling by the ATF. As soon as the popularity of renting a CNC machine to complete the unfinished lowers became know, they wanted to put a stop to it. AFAIK you can still mill one in your garage, using your own equipment.

Someone else with more/better information will hopefully come along and enlighten us further.
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock_this View Post
So this raises a question I have had for some tine but can't get a definitive answer on.

If you had an 80% lower & the government - CA or national - made AW illegal, made a gun grab or required us to reg our riflez would a no SN# having non branded lower be exempt or would they just ban by "feature"?

I'm trying to understand the real value of an 80% lower because if they ban AR models by "feature" then it still falls into getting banned. If they require AR registering and you do not as it has no brand or SN# you are still screwed if found with it no?

So really what is the benefit?
you would need to mark it with a serial number so it could be registered.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:46 PM
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Ok, my question would be, what about a location like makerplace, or something like it. A location with equipment available for use by members. Not a business milling out 80s for others, but a teaching / learning location, maybe not specifically paying for the finishing of a firearm but for a general membership in a location with proper equipment?
If money changing hands and the creation of a complete firearm is the issue, at what point does the maker have to own the equipment used?
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:47 PM
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If this is the case I don't see why companies wouldn't make 90 percent lowers and leave it to the consumer to drill out the pin holes making the lower 100%. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a 90% type lower.
80%, 95%, etc. are all just marketing terms (the Tactical machining "95%" is like most other companies' 80% receivers. ar15plus.com's "80%" is missing pivot detent pin, pivot detent vent, bolt catch spring, safety detent, and pistol grip holes).

As far as ATF is concerned either it's a firearm (note the "readily converted" clause) or it's not. Tactical Machining's "95%" lowers are no different in their eyes than a chunk of aluminum bar. An 80% plus spotted fire control locations is no different from a 100% lower.

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The term “firearm” is defined in the Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(3), to include "(A) any weapon (including a starter gun), which will, or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon"
Currently a dimpled fire control pin location or milled fire control pocket won't get a "not a firearm" letter of determination.

Historically they allowed a fully milled receiver without holes or a tapped buffer tower and such "paper weights" were marketed as "80%" receivers. With holes on six sides, a boring head or Silver and Deming bit needed for the buffer tube hole, and in-stock 1 3/16-16 tap running over $70 you wouldn't want to go that way.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 04-23-2013 at 8:56 PM..
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:49 PM
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We need 3D aluminum printers and some device we can use to reclaim aluminum and turn it back into the raw material that is used by the 3D printer. Then you just keep the printer and a chunk of aluminum around and you can print yourself a lower receiver in a few minutes.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:53 PM
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This sounds like such a bunch of crap. How can anyone tell a tool rental place what the end users can/can't do? So instead of going to some CNC shop, say I go rent a drill press from ACME rentals and haul it home... how are they to know what I do with it?

Then again, who out there wants to be a test case? Sounds like we need yet another cash drive to put in a separate "80%" fund.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:55 PM
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I'm curious. How much do the attorneys charge the CGF for the lawsuits? I'm wondering if I donate how the money will be spent.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:07 PM
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What about AK flats? Can we not have those done now?

Last edited by .30-06; 04-23-2013 at 9:13 PM..
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:15 PM
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You still get the benefit of not being on any 4473. At least until the end of the year.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
No federal laws were passed yesterday.

Seems like ATF is making stuff up, but not having seen anything from them yet, can't be certain.
From the other thread I saw this quote, "Based on this, build parties are now outlawed until someone comes up with a big chunk of cash to fight a lawsuit over this."

From what I know about Amateur Rocketry, this is pure BS by the ATF. In our case, they placed a chemical typically used as a propellant on their xplosive list. Without any public comment/input!! We had to challenge them in court. It took years, but WE WON!!

Just because they're called the A_tf(e) doesn't mean they're gods, or can do whatever they want.

Also, IF THIS ISN'T CHALLENGED, a court might determine that people were OK with it!!


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Old 04-23-2013, 9:36 PM
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Stupid question. Wouldn't you just have to personally go from non-firearm, to firearm (only one step past non-firearm i.e. execute one tool path, or drill one hole), then let an 07 completely finish it?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Stupid question. Wouldn't you just have to personally go from non-firearm, to firearm (only one step past non-firearm i.e. execute one tool path, or drill one hole), then let an 07 completely finish it?
Possibly, but any firearm transferred to an 07 needs a serial# and will end up on the books.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:22 PM
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Possibly, but any firearm transferred to an 07 needs a serial# and will end up on the books.
Isn't there a same day exception for gunsmith work wrt the bound book?
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