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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

View Poll Results: Buying a 80% Lower with new ATF Opinion
I'll still go the 80% route and do it myself with a jig 479 64.47%
To much work or cost involved now for me 90 12.11%
I'm on the fence about it 93 12.52%
I'm an AK guy so I'm gonna just have some popcorn 81 10.90%
Voters: 743. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-23-2013, 6:47 AM
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Default 80% Build Parties deemed illegal by the ATF

***2nd Update***

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80% Arms View Post
OP,

There is a lot of misinformation in your post and we would like to set the record straight.

Based on our understanding of what we were told by Jason, you are correct to say that you can still complete a lower in a machine shop using their tools (drill press, mill, etc... as long as that tool is NOT a CNC machine). This is one definition of a "build party".

There was some confusion I think because we use the term "build party" interchangeably with "CNC rental" because that's what many people equate build parties with. That term is not very clear though, and we've since tried to use "CNC rental" instead of "build party". As far as we know, a build party not involving a CNC machine should be ok under the ATF's new interpretation of laws.

We were advised by Jason that the ATF now considers providing someone a pre-programmed CNC machine with fixtures in place as "manufacturing". It doesn't matter if you have an FFL 07. With an FFL 07, it seems that a person could still rent the CNC and push the button, but the lower would have to be manufactured under the name of the company who holds the FFL. It would need to be properly serialized and go through the normal background check, paperwork, and 10 day wait period associated with purchasing a firearm in CA. This is what we were expressly told by our lawyer because we specifically asked if an FFL 07 would be a possible solution to this problem.

As far as AS&T and the others still offering CNC rental, unfortunately the writing seems to be on the wall for that. We just spoke to another shop a couple days ago who actually received a phone call from the ATF notifying them to shut down their CNC rental operation immediately or they could face prosecution if they didn't comply by the end of this month. I think it's pretty clear that there is a problem here, not one that we fabricated.

To be clear, 80% Arms Inc (the company that makes lowers) has never offered CNC Rentals. They were offered by 80% CNC Rentals LLC, which was totally separate from 80% Arms and located in a completely different office that sold pet products in an entirely different city. Anyone who rented a CNC there has seen this. Also, as of the last time we talked with AS&T, they do not have an FFL, or any type of license that would make them a more "proper setup" than anybody else. There was no difference between 80% CNC Rental LLC and AS&T. This is not to knock AS&T, they do great work and we've referred all our customers there since this came up.

Nothing has been exaggerated here and this has only hurt our business. The only correction we would make is clarify what we originally meant by using the word "build party". CNC Rentals are the best thing that ever happened to this industry and it's in our best interest that they stick around.




***UPDATE***


Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Custom Coating View Post
Hey Calgunners, I just read the ATF letter and spoke to the AFT directly and I want to help clarify a few things before wrong information continues to spread. It appears that some on this thread are implying that it is illegal to complete your 80% lower at a machine shop. This is false…

The letter that was received by “80% Arms”, stating that they cannot complete these lowers, is due to the fact that they do not have the proper FFL and setup. You CAN still mill these paperweights out at a company who has the proper licensing or proper setup such as Arms Specialty and Tool in Orange.

The “manufacturing license” is needed if a shop is making 80% lowers and then completing them. You cannot make 80% lowers and then complete them in the same shop. This is just logical that a shop doing both is technically make 100% lowers and thus considered a manufacturer. However, it is still legal for one shop to make 80% lowers and another shop to rent the machine so that you can complete your personal lowers.

We already have enough laws governing our “freedoms” let’s not exaggerate or add to these laws with our personal commentaries. Let’s try to keep it to the facts.

If anyone has information contrary to what is stated above, please correct me and send me your source for the information. My source of information comes from the Santa Ana ATF field office.

Hope this helps.

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***




From 80% Arms website based on a letter sent to there attorney Jason Davis.
Quote:
As of Apr 22, the ATF wrote a letter stating that they consider 80% lower build parties to be illegal. For this reason, we no longer offer them. We disagree with their opinion, but there is little we can do to challenge it at this point. We do sell jigs that make finishing your lower a pretty simple process. With a jig, drill press, and 3 hours of your time, you can easily finish your lower at home.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...58&postcount=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80% Arms View Post
Unfortunately, 80% CNC Rentals, LLC does not offer build parties.

Our attorney, Jason Davis, who is also the attorney for Calguns Foundation, informed us today that he received a letter from the ATF stating: "ATF does claim that you need an FFL (manufacturing license) to engage in the 80 to 100 percent business operations - even if others are pushing the buttons and performing all the steps on your machine at your facility".

Based on this, build parties are now outlawed until someone comes up with a big chunk of cash to fight a lawsuit over this. This is a setback to those looking to finish their 80% lower quickly, but it's not the end of the world. It's possible to finish a lower using our jig and a drill press in about 3 hours pretty nicely. We are posting a tutorial right now, which we'll continue to expand and update over the coming weeks. It's really a lot easier to finish a lower with a jig that most people think.

Last edited by AKSOG; 04-27-2013 at 1:23 PM..
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  #2  
Old 04-23-2013, 6:57 AM
M&P40FAN M&P40FAN is offline
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Knew that was coming...
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:59 AM
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Ugh... I just bought mine...
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:01 AM
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Might push me more towards bending my own AK flat, but I'd still do an 80%
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:05 AM
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Sheesh.
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  #6  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:14 AM
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even more reason for people to buy a mill now.
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  #7  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:17 AM
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That's a kick in the nuts.
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  #8  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:28 AM
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Saw this coming a mile away!
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  #9  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:31 AM
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I'm on the fence about what to do next as I have two billet 80's on order. I'm looking at drill pressed lowers on YouTube. I do not have the tools for this and the start up costs/time relay do not pan out for me.

If a calguner would like to show me the ropes and has the tools to do one on one clinics. I'm all eyes and ears. Paying for the tooling "bits" and consumables would not be a problem.
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  #10  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:50 AM
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Next is buying jig will be illegal. Then few years after, they will ban the drill press too. WTH
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:50 AM
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So is one person renting time on a mill still ok?
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:53 AM
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Fook. I have three more 80% lowers coming in next month.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:03 AM
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Umm... I'm not seeing in that post where it says 80% build parties are illegal. It appears to specifically be referring to having a shop where people walk in and pay to clamp a paperweight into a CNC mill and push a button.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Umm... I'm not seeing in that post where it says 80% build parties are illegal. It appears to specifically be referring to having a shop where people walk in and pay to clamp a paperweight into a CNC mill and push a button.
Did you miss the first sentence?

Quote:
As of Apr 22, the ATF wrote a letter stating that they consider 80% lower build parties to be illegal.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:19 AM
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How about selling me the machine? And then i sell it back for like $1? That way I own the machine so I can complete the 80% with my machine.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:21 AM
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Dang...
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:26 AM
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Clever gun owners figuring out work-arounds to stupid govt laws and DOJ position papers in 3...2....1....
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:29 AM
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Gonna be a lot of 80% lowers flooding the second-hand market if this stands for very long.

The convenience of the CNC build parties is what really caused a spike in the 80% AR lower market.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:54 AM
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Or skip the 80% and get a bag of these before sb374 goes into affect.
http://www.hendersondefense.com/stor...ack-35p392.htm
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:00 AM
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Sb374 requires you to register all semi-auto weapons.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:05 AM
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You need a 5th option in your poll:

I have my own CNC so I am not affected
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalXJ View Post
Sb374 requires you to register all semi-auto weapons.
They aren't semi-auto until the gas tube is in place. Mine will be either single shot or out of state by July 2014.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostsheep View Post
You need a 5th option in your poll:

I have my own CNC so I am not affected
Is that any different than option 1?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostsheep View Post
You need a 5th option in your poll:

I have my own CNC so I am not affected
I'm a hunter so I'm not affected. Ban away. Right?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:11 AM
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Please correct me if I am wrong or clarify, but this sounds like it pertains to businesses that are renting out their machinery to finish the final cuts of AR's?

If Joe Shmo has a mill in his garage and he finishes his personal lowers, is he OK?

If he has a couple buddies over and he does not charge them, but lets them use his jigs, is he OK?

How about AK build partys with lowers that are pre-formed and just need a heavy press to button up the rivets? I believe the lowers are already serialized, so I would think they would be OK?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:12 AM
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I wonder what prompted this sudden change.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalXJ View Post
Sb374 requires you to register all semi-auto weapons.
even C&R sks?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I'm a hunter so I'm not affected. Ban away. Right?
Dang I really did forget a 5th hunter option
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostsheep View Post
You need a 5th option in your poll:

I have my own CNC so I am not affected
You will have a lot of new friends..
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshill View Post
They aren't semi-auto until the gas tube is in place. Mine will be either single shot or out of state by July 2014.
I wonder how 'permanent' the non semi-auto configuration has to be.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by NorCalXJ
Sb374 requires you to register all semi-auto weapons.
even C&R sks?


I think for all magazine feed.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSOG View Post
Did you miss the first sentence?
Read the rest of the post. It's specifically referring to a commercial operation for walking in, clamping it into the machine, and hitting a button.

Other than that never being something I'd consider a "build party", it is wildly inaccurate to take that statement and apply it to all 80% build parties.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:44 AM
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Please post the BATF letter that states that the build parties are illegal.

Thank You.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSOG View Post
Is that any different than option 1?

Yes it is. Jigs, we don't need no stinking jigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I'm a hunter so I'm not affected. Ban away. Right?
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  #35  
Old 04-23-2013, 9:45 AM
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hmm....it's only illegal, if you got caught doing it. Just saying.
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  #36  
Old 04-23-2013, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80%upperbuilder View Post
Please post the BATF letter that states that the build parties are illegal.

Thank You.
According to 80% Arms the letter was sent to Calguns Foundation Attorney Jason Davis. I would assume him to be the best person to try and contact for a copy.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:19 AM
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I remember a Mike Rowe Dirty Jobs episode where he was working a farm or something and a vet came to do something to a goat, and he had to buy the goat for like a dollar to do the work and then sell it back, all on site.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:19 AM
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It states 80 to 100% business operations, I read this as companies selling time on their machine (ie. ares armory) not private build parties. I'm sure someone with a law degree can/will comment.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:20 AM
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so who wants to come over and "not have a build party..."
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:22 AM
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good
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