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  #1  
Old 11-11-2007, 1:16 PM
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Default ART v. Super Sniper?

Hey all. I just picked up a M1A with some match grade components. I am now looking into optics. I haven't done much long range shooting and don't want to blow the bank on optics out the gate.

I want to be able to use the scope from close up distances ~100 yards out to about ~500+ yards. I know the Super Sniper is a fixed optic so that has me a little worried but I haven't really heard much about the ART scope (other than it's the original M21 scope).

I also really like the warranty that Leupold offers but I don't know if I'm ready to drop $1k on optics yet... ($500 maybe).

I am open to any and all constructive comments. Thanks!


Currently I am looking at the Leatherwood ART
http://www.leatherwoodoptics.com/index-leatherwood.html


and the Super Sniper
http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-snip...le-scopes.aspx
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2007, 1:27 PM
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I have owned a couple of ss and they are very good. Once you start looking at higher end scopes you will see the issues with the ss but it will get the job done, especially at those distances. I would actually go with this guy

http://www.libertyoptics.com/index.h...d=39173.826389

It may be more then you are looking to pay but should take you from cqb to 1000.

I have no experience with ART scopes. Also calling Scott will probably get you a better price as well as the updated exposed knob version.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:13 PM
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The newer ART scope is a Chinese scope. I would not put it in same league as even a SuperSniper.

Save your pennies and get a Leupold or IOR or US Optics scope and quality mounts.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:18 PM
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You need a scope that will withstand the stress a semi puts on it - forget the ART - at the least a SS will fit the bill - there has been many M1A with them - from there look at Leupy MK4, Nikon Tactical, Nightforce, IOR or US Optics.

For your price range, <500.00, go with the SS.
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
You need a scope that will withstand the stress a semi puts on it - forget the ART - at the least a SS will fit the bill - there has been many M1A with them - from there look at Leupy MK4, Nikon Tactical, Nightforce, IOR or US Optics.

For your price range, <500.00, go with the SS.
That's what it's starting to sound like... so from there.

Have any specific rings in mind? I'm thinking I will want a quick release mount so I can convert to irons without trouble if I should feel so inclined. There is SOOO much stuff out there and reading it all only gets you moore confused.

I was told the 10x SS (it comes in several flavors) is the way to go for 100 - 500 yards and that going with the 16x would provide too much magnification.

BTW: I hear everyone on the higher end models... just don't want to spend $1k on optics as a long range beginner.
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  #6  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:29 PM
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you also need a good scopemount. Sadlak or ARMS are the best that you can find for your M1a.
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigglerD View Post
That's what it's starting to sound like... so from there.

Have any specific rings in mind? I'm thinking I will want a quick release mount so I can convert to irons without trouble if I should feel so inclined. There is SOOO much stuff out there and reading it all only gets you moore confused.

I was told the 10x SS (it comes in several flavors) is the way to go for 100 - 500 yards and that going with the 16x would provide too much magnification.

BTW: I hear everyone on the higher end models... just don't want to spend $1k on optics as a long range beginner.
I know from Experience the Saldek mount has a channel in it that allows you to use Iron Sights with a scope mounted. You are also going to need some sort of cheek rest since the scope will be way to high to use the stock comb. Unless you are getting a JAE-100. I like IOR and Badger Rings. Burris eXtreme Tactical rings work well also. They are not quick release but that is not needed with the Saldek and a few of the other mounts.

As Timberwolf and many others told me. You only cry once. It is often better to save up and but the higher end and never need to buy another one. That being said the SS 10x is a great beginner scope as is the Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40 mildot with side focus and is actually cheaper then the SS and a variable optic with better glass. The SS has nicer knobs though but they can be finicky if you have to re-zero the knobs.
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  #8  
Old 11-11-2007, 11:30 PM
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Here's mine.....shoots between 1/2-3/4 MOA with my loads. Shoots 1 MOA with FGMM.

Leupold 4.5x14x50mm LR/T mil-dot with ARMS quick release rings and and ARMS mount.

They start at about $699 and go up from there for the LR/T's.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-...fle-scope.html

Oh...I recommend staying with 40mm...as my scope is super close to the heat shield.


Last edited by Whitesmoke; 11-11-2007 at 11:36 PM..
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2007, 1:55 AM
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Like others have said stay away from ART. The SuperSniper is nice for the money but I don't like the fixed magnification. We carry a full line of Leupold, Nikon, Simmons and others and have the lowest prices. We would be more than happy to earn your business and help you choose the right scope.

Http://www.ShootForLess.com
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2007, 7:16 AM
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For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.

If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2007, 7:37 AM
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I always forget about the 3200. That is a nice scope with better knobs IMHO.
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2007, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasandiego View Post
you also need a good scopemount. Sadlak or ARMS are the best that you can find for your M1a.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prc329 View Post
I know from Experience the Saldek mount has a channel in it that allows you to use Iron Sights with a scope mounted. You are also going to need some sort of cheek rest since the scope will be way to high to use the stock comb. Unless you are getting a JAE-100. I like IOR and Badger Rings. Burris eXtreme Tactical rings work well also. They are not quick release but that is not needed with the Saldek and a few of the other mounts.
Thanks all for the volumes of information. For the stock and mount, I bought the M1A / M21 that was in the classifieds last week so it already has an ARMS mount with an M21 adjustable cheek piece stock. Fow now, I am in the market for good optics / mount and ammo

I was told the Lupy was the only scope that comes near (although not in) my price range that's worth owning. Looks like there may be others. I'll check out the Nikon and give Optics+ a call.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2007, 8:52 AM
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Leupold has a good reputation but IMHO it is not always deserved. I owned that Nikon and only sold it because I had to sell the rifle. It is a very good scope and will leave that $500 is good shape to buy ammo.
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  #14  
Old 11-12-2007, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.
If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.
The Nikons are great, I prefer Nikon over most other brands of scopes. That being said, the buckmaster does not have the adjustment knobs that "tactical" scopes have. If you want to use the reticle for hold-offthen thats not a problem for you, but if you want to learn to dial in elevation and windage, you want a scope with the knobs.

The Bushnell scope is a fine scope as well, has knobs, good reticle, clear glass, etc. However, it does not have the adjustment range that the SS scope has. For 500 and under, it would be fine, even out a bit further, but if you want to have the maximum options for elevation and windage adjustments the SS is better.

In summary:

The Buckmaster is great but it has limited capabilities.
The Bushnell is good, better option than the Buckmaster.
The SS scope is a dang fine scope for the money, cant go wrong.
You will eventually upgrade. Leupold, Nikon, USO, S&B, all are better with a higher price tag.
Save your pennies!
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  #15  
Old 11-12-2007, 9:12 AM
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rksimple used his 3200 to 1000 yards with no problem. He was using a pretty flat shooting 155 scenar load so that may have helped.
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2007, 9:22 AM
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While discussing the lower end scopes such as Buckmaster and the 3200 one word of caution should be expressed. This scope will be mounted on an M1A not a bolt gun. The M1A (or any semi for that matter) puts more stress on a scope than a bolt gun due to the forces exerted during its cycle. That said though I've seen 3200s, Buckmasters etc on boltguns give excellant results and service I have to question if they're stout enough to last on a M1A. Just food for thought.
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Old 11-12-2007, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.

If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.
My brother in law just bought a 4.5-14 Nikon, he likes it.....I've looked through those and it's nice glass. Thats a good way to go on a budget.
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  #18  
Old 11-12-2007, 9:31 AM
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For beginning optics, I'd definitely recommend a variable scope over a fixed. The extra flexibility goes a long way in helping you figure out what works best for you.

There are plenty of good scopes under $500, but you'll need a list of must-have vs. nice-to-have options to see if you can fit one in. Mil-dot's easy enough to get, but those target turrets definitely add a bit more, and illumination can do the same if you care about it. For long-range shooting, you may need the extra adjustment a 30mm tube will give you.

Make up a chart of critical features and a list of scopes that fill the bill, and it'll narrow it down pretty well.
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Old 11-12-2007, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxicon View Post
For beginning optics, I'd definitely recommend a variable scope over a fixed. The extra flexibility goes a long way in helping you figure out what works best for you.

There are plenty of good scopes under $500, but you'll need a list of must-have vs. nice-to-have options to see if you can fit one in. Mil-dot's easy enough to get, but those target turrets definitely add a bit more, and illumination can do the same if you care about it. For long-range shooting, you may need the extra adjustment a 30mm tube will give you.

Make up a chart of critical features and a list of scopes that fill the bill, and it'll narrow it down pretty well.
Hmmm..

Would like:
  • Mil Dot
  • Marked Turrets
  • 100 - 500 (maybe more?) range
  • Durability
Would be nice...
  • Variable magnification
  • Illumination
  • Good Service Warranty

Essentially, I am a beginner that doesn't want to break the bank on something I am only learning. I want to learn the ability to somewhat quickly acquire targets from 1 - 500 (maybe more) yards and put down consistent shots. Not really looking to do too much bench rest (other than what's required to learn the basics).
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  #20  
Old 11-12-2007, 9:56 AM
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http://www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm

I have no experience with these guys but I keep reading they are good for the money. They are suppose to offer what is called an MP20 reticle which is pretty similar to the Mp8 reticle.
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prc329 View Post
http://www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm

I have no experience with these guys but I keep reading they are good for the money. They are suppose to offer what is called an MP20 reticle which is pretty similar to the Mp8 reticle.
Wow, that looks like it covers everything... Given the, Menace 4.5-18x56 and Menace 4-14x44FFP, what kind of range delta would I be looking at between the two? I'm thinking the 4.5-18x56 might be overkill... no?
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:04 AM
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Going with the Bushnell theme, in a variable power scope, I would seriously consider this one:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9838-184-bush...fle-scope.aspx
Its an outstanding scope for the money!
As far as holding up on a M1A, they sell the .50BMG rifles with the Bushnell 10x scope installed, I think the Bushnells will hold up just fine.
PS- I personally wouldnt buy the Menace scope.
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2007, 11:07 AM
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Looking at the two Menaces I'd choose the 4-14X44 FFP because of the FFP.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
While discussing the lower end scopes such as Buckmaster and the 3200 one word of caution should be expressed. This scope will be mounted on an M1A not a bolt gun. The M1A (or any semi for that matter) puts more stress on a scope than a bolt gun due to the forces exerted during its cycle. That said though I've seen 3200s, Buckmasters etc on boltguns give excellant results and service I have to question if they're stout enough to last on a M1A. Just food for thought.
Doesn't barret put the 3200 on their m82's? Recoil is not a problem for the 3200.

The knobs on the buckmaster ARE finger adjustable, zeroable, and even have stadia lines to identify what revolution you're on. They're just not big and tacticool, if that matters to you.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:18 AM
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I should get out more, didn't know they used the 3200 on Barretts - last one I saw had a Mk4 16X on it.

By the way I just bought a 10X 3200 for use on a .22LR training rifle I'm putting together - they're pretty nice.
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  #26  
Old 11-12-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
I should get out more, didn't know they used the 3200 on Barretts - last one I saw had a Mk4 16X on it.

By the way I just bought a 10X 3200 for use on a .22LR training rifle I'm putting together - they're pretty nice.
I asked as a true question. I'm pretty sure they do, and I've seen a few with the 3200's on them. I've read about Barrett doing such, but don't know for a fact.
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
I asked as a true question. I'm pretty sure they do, and I've seen a few with the 3200's on them. I've read about Barrett doing such, but don't know for a fact.
My bad, thought it was a statement . . . ooopsie . . . . I don't know though
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Old 11-12-2007, 1:09 PM
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Wow that Menace 56mm Objective one sounds like a good deal. I didn't think it was going to be released before the end of year considering how alot of vendors always say a tenative release date and it seems to end up with the product being released six months after the initial quote.

Anyone think the Falcon Menace and SWFA SS scopes are made in the same factory abroad, just different names on them due to the importers/final assembly people? The construction of both seems very similar with just minor milling/ knob changes to make it look different.
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  #29  
Old 11-12-2007, 2:58 PM
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An affordable option with good quality, good support, and tactical features is the Burris Fullfield II Tactical scopes. The FFII has good glass, is solid, and Burris provides very good support and a lifetime warranty. The FFII Tactical has low-profile target knobs and a combo mil-dot and bullet drop reticle, and prices range from $210 to $480. It's not up to Nightforce or Leupold Mk4 level, but doesn't cost like them either. They're only a 1" tube, so whether they've got enough adjustment will depend on the range and load.

http://www.swfa.com/c-1108-burris-fu...le-scopes.aspx

Detailed description of the knobs and reticle:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/fftactical.html
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  #30  
Old 11-13-2007, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesmoke View Post
Here's mine.....shoots between 1/2-3/4 MOA with my loads. Shoots 1 MOA with FGMM.

Leupold 4.5x14x50mm LR/T mil-dot with ARMS quick release rings and and ARMS mount
Starting with a Buckmaster and then likely moving up from there.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-ri...s-4-14x40.html

What height rings will I need for a 40 mil on an M1A?

I prefer a quick detatch style...

Last edited by DigglerD; 11-13-2007 at 2:13 PM..
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  #31  
Old 11-14-2007, 9:54 PM
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The ARMS 22 low rings will work with the 40 mm perfectly with the ARMS 18 mount.....I'm using the low with my 50mm....but it's damn close to touching. I doubt you will regret the Nikon.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigglerD View Post
Starting with a Buckmaster and then likely moving up from there.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-ri...s-4-14x40.html

What height rings will I need for a 40 mil on an M1A?

I prefer a quick detatch style...
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  #32  
Old 11-19-2007, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
The Nikons are great, I prefer Nikon over most other brands of scopes. That being said, the buckmaster does not have the adjustment knobs that "tactical" scopes have. If you want to use the reticle for hold-offthen thats not a problem for you, but if you want to learn to dial in elevation and windage, you want a scope with the knobs.

The Bushnell scope is a fine scope as well, has knobs, good reticle, clear glass, etc. However, it does not have the adjustment range that the SS scope has. For 500 and under, it would be fine, even out a bit further, but if you want to have the maximum options for elevation and windage adjustments the SS is better.

In summary:

The Buckmaster is great but it has limited capabilities.
The Bushnell is good, better option than the Buckmaster.
The SS scope is a dang fine scope for the money, cant go wrong.
You will eventually upgrade. Leupold, Nikon, USO, S&B, all are better with a higher price tag.
Save your pennies!
My Buckmaster came with an extra set of knobs, cool tactical Knobs!!
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  #33  
Old 11-19-2007, 10:26 PM
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My Buckmaster came with an extra set of knobs, cool tactical Knobs!!
Just got mine today... no extra knobs :-(

where can I buy them?
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  #34  
Old 11-22-2007, 7:27 AM
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+1 for the Bushnell 3200 10x. I have one on a RRA Varmint A4. Simple no frills mil-dot scope that cant be beat for price (-$200). A good starter scope you wont regret having bought and makes a good backup up/beater when you upgrade. Leaves plenty of moola left over for a good mount too. Internet says Barrett put them on their M99 .50 bolt gun packages so it should be strong enough for the M1A.
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Old 11-22-2007, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DigglerD View Post
Just got mine today... no extra knobs :-(

where can I buy them?
Where did you get your scope from. I got mine from Midway.
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  #36  
Old 11-22-2007, 10:06 PM
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DigglerD DigglerD is offline
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Originally Posted by 5968 View Post
Where did you get your scope from. I got mine from Midway.
SWFA... guess I shoulda shopped around...
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  #37  
Old 11-23-2007, 8:27 AM
Jarhead Jarhead is offline
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then you have:

http://www.usoptics.com/

http://www.unertloptics.com/scopes.aspx#target
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  #38  
Old 11-25-2007, 6:17 PM
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5968 5968 is offline
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Originally Posted by DigglerD View Post
Hey all. I just picked up a M1A with some match grade components. I am now looking into optics. I haven't done much long range shooting and don't want to blow the bank on optics out the gate.

I want to be able to use the scope from close up distances ~100 yards out to about ~500+ yards. I know the Super Sniper is a fixed optic so that has me a little worried but I haven't really heard much about the ART scope (other than it's the original M21 scope).

I also really like the warranty that Leupold offers but I don't know if I'm ready to drop $1k on optics yet... ($500 maybe).

I am open to any and all constructive comments. Thanks!


Currently I am looking at the Leatherwood ART
http://www.leatherwoodoptics.com/index-leatherwood.html


and the Super Sniper
http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-snip...le-scopes.aspx
If you are going to get one of these scopes, I would go with the SS. I have one on my M1A and haven't had any problems with it; however I have a friend that put an ART on his M1A and broke it within a couple hundred rounds. His M1A now wears a SS too.
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