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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 04-22-2013, 12:33 PM
LuvLRBs LuvLRBs is offline
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Default We should tie gun control to immigration reform

I am hearing the liberals express concern today that the violent acts of these two immigrant terrorists could slow the immigration reform for innocent mothers, students, workers, all the good immigrants who ARE NOT AT FAULT. Yet their reaction to mass shootings in Colorado and Connecticut is to push for punishment of all law abiding gun owners. Solution: national legislation prohibiting states from restrictive gun control in exchange for immigration reform. Why shouldn't this "don't blame innocents" work both ways?
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:46 PM
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Two very different issues, both very complex.

I actually wish more people who are anti-immigration knew more about immigration policies and laws, because they are generally just as uninformed as the antis who call for stricter gun control are about firearms and gun laws.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Two very different issues, both very complex.

I actually wish more people who are anti-immigration knew more about immigration policies and laws, because they are generally just as uninformed as the antis who call for stricter gun control are about firearms and gun laws.
Not anti-immigration. Anti hypocrisy. Either you recognize that an entire class of citizens should not be punished for the crimes of a few evil criminals or you don't.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Not anti-immigration. Anti hypocrisy. Either you recognize that an entire class of citizens should not be punished for the crimes of a few evil criminals or you don't.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:00 PM
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I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Are you playing dumb? Demonizing gun owners is not more acceptable than demonizing immigrants in general. Why do the same commentators who are clearly in a state of anxiety over the possibility that the bombers could reflect badly upon all immigrants as far as legislation have no such qualms about gun control of all gun owners in response to a couple of mass shootings by lunatics?
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Two very different issues, both very complex.

I actually wish more people who are anti-immigration knew more about immigration policies and laws, because they are generally just as uninformed as the antis who call for stricter gun control are about firearms and gun laws.
I'm not sure if you equate anti-immigration with anti-illegal-immigration, but I (and most other people) are simply anti-illegal-immigration, and don't have a problem with people following the laws of our nation and coming here legally.

I'm fairly informed on immigration myself, since I came here from another country.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:08 PM
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a1c isn't dumb, I don't think he understands your argument, and neither do I.

Quote:
same commentators
You want to make laws intermingling different issues base on what you get from the media.

Now I understand.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:12 PM
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Related, a good article:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...mmigrants.html

Here's a snippit:

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Originally Posted by article
In 2011 the General Accountability Office (GAO) published a report called "Criminal Alien Statistics." This report listed the types of crimes for which illegal aliens were actually convicted from 2001 to 2009. Those who wish to prevent bombings such as occurred at the Boston marathon should note that from 2001 to 2009 the DOJ convicted 68 illegal aliens of terrorism related acts. These included actions related to the bombing of public places. (P. 25) In this time period the DOJ convicted an additional 9 illegal aliens who had links to international terrorism. (P.26). Illegal aliens were 17% of the total inmate population convicted as a result of terrorism-related investigations. These terrorists were able to enter the country unhindered due to the lack of background checks performed upon illegal immigrants.
and

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And with regard to murder, the crime Democrats use as the rationale for passing strict background checks, the report found that in 2008 in the five states of New York, Texas, Arizona, Florida and California there were 6,300 illegal alien inmates convicted of homicide. An additional 1,550 were convicted of weapons violations. The homicide rate for illegal aliens was particularly high in New York State were 27% of all person convicted for homicide were illegal aliens. This suggests that if the background checks required by the normal process of legal immigration were conducted, the great majority of these 6,300 homicides would have been prevented. These background checks are already mandated by Federal law yet Democrats are primarily responsible for ignoring them.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:13 PM
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a1c isn't dumb, I don't think he understands your argument, and neither do I.



You want to make laws intermingling different issues base on what you get from the media.

Now I understand.
No, what I get from the democrats. My argument is that when a few crazies commit an evil act it's just that....an evil act. An evil act by a couple of individuals should no more impact immigration reform than it should gun legislation.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:20 PM
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And of course I understand the two issues are different but the underlying philosophy of how politicians respond to horrific acts should be consistent. Or is this too much to ask?
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Not anti-immigration. Anti hypocrisy. Either you recognize that an entire class of citizens should not be punished for the crimes of a few evil criminals or you don't.
Cheers!
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
I am hearing the liberals express concern today that the violent acts of these two immigrant terrorists could slow the immigration reform for innocent mothers, students, workers, all the good immigrants who ARE NOT AT FAULT. Yet their reaction to mass shootings in Colorado and Connecticut is to push for punishment of all law abiding gun owners. Solution: national legislation prohibiting states from restrictive gun control in exchange for immigration reform. Why shouldn't this "don't blame innocents" work both ways?

Because gunowners generally aren't Dem, voters.....immigrants are....and the Dems want to expand their voting base and to expand the dependent class. Gun owners stand in the way of their plan to weaken the nation and enslave the population.
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Old 04-22-2013, 9:49 PM
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We don't need, "gun control." We most certainly need to reform our immigration system, control our borders and prevent criminal aliens from impacting our society. None of those things is currently happening.
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Old 04-22-2013, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
And of course I understand the two issues are different but the underlying philosophy of how politicians respond to horrific acts should be consistent. Or is this too much to ask?
Hell, it is impossible to ask that of most gun owners.
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Old 04-23-2013, 3:16 PM
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Hell, it is impossible to ask that of most gun owners.
Or journalists for that matter.
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Old 04-25-2013, 6:26 PM
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Many people need to recall that its not immigration that most people have issue with ( these bombers prove there are issues there) but the problem is illegal immigration and CA is one example of what happens with illegal invaders slowing taking over a state.
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Old 04-25-2013, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dixiecrat1975 View Post
Many people need to recall that its not immigration that most people have issue with ( these bombers prove there are issues there) but the problem is illegal immigration and CA is one example of what happens with illegal invaders slowing taking over a state.
Since I started this thread I better say that it wasn't to bash immigrants, even illegal ones, it was to point out the hypocrisy of singular bad acts sometimes being used to punish entire groups and sometimes not. It's our government's failure that all these people came in illegally. Both parties condoned it. I was just wishing somebody in this state would say "either we react to the bombings by not legalizing these immigrants and we demand gun control because of shootings, or we stop punishing law abiding gun owners for shootings done by lunatics and tackle immigration reform".
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Old 04-25-2013, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
And of course I understand the two issues are different but the underlying philosophy of how politicians respond to horrific acts should be consistent. Or is this too much to ask?
That is too much to ask of politicians. That would mean that they would actually have to think logically. Not directing to all politicians. You know the ones I'm talking about.

Wouldn't it be great if the representatives of our country would do their jobs based on logic and what their constituency actually wanted of them.
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Old 04-25-2013, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Two very different issues, both very complex.

I actually wish more people who are anti-immigration knew more about immigration policies and laws, because they are generally just as uninformed as the antis who call for stricter gun control are about firearms and gun laws.
A M E N !!!

The "let's just build a fence" people are every bit as ignorant as the "let's just ban assault weapons."

Immigration is a profoundly complex issue. It doesn't lend well to the reductionist thinking of many.
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Old 04-26-2013, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
A M E N !!!

The "let's just build a fence" people are every bit as ignorant as the "let's just ban assault weapons."

Immigration is a profoundly complex issue. It doesn't lend well to the reductionist thinking of many.
I will in part agree. To an extent I am very anti-illegal immigrant, but I like what Ron Paul said about building a fence meant to keep people out could also keep you in.

I think getting rid of the things that draw them here like being able to have kids then get various benefits for breeding 10 kids on the taxpayers dime would stop the crap.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dixiecrat1975 View Post
I will in part agree. To an extent I am very anti-illegal immigrant, but I like what Ron Paul said about building a fence meant to keep people out could also keep you in.

I think getting rid of the things that draw them here like being able to have kids then get various benefits for breeding 10 kids on the taxpayers dime would stop the crap.
The stopper is to make it effectively IMPOSSIBLE to hire an illegal alien in the US. With computers the way they are that's largely possible. Those illegal aliens who work in the USA don't do it under-the-table as some believe -- they do it with bogus documents as the penalties are already fairly severe.

The problem is to clamp down to the level that the gov't KNOWS if you have something hinky going on with regard to your payroll requires a close bit of big brother watching over things. We don't like that in the USA. So those screaming for tightened employment documentation/oversight would also be screaming about big brother watching. Further, if things did actually get that tight, the number of illegal aliens working off-the-books would indeed increase.

What do you do with a pregnant mother who waits to present herself to an ER until she's in labor and she purposely does so in a city a good distance away from the border? Do you just ignore her? Let her fend for herself? I think we're better than that.

How about the child? Do we stop our nation's cherished tradition of granting everyone born on US soil, US citizenship by and large? If their parents (or just their mom?) are not citizens then they are not either?

All these questions are extremely deep and the political will to forge a realistic solution to the current situation has largely been lacking from BOTH sides of the aisle since the end of WWII.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Are you playing dumb? Demonizing gun owners is not more acceptable than demonizing immigrants in general. Why do the same commentators who are clearly in a state of anxiety over the possibility that the bombers could reflect badly upon all immigrants as far as legislation have no such qualms about gun control of all gun owners in response to a couple of mass shootings by lunatics?
I'm not playing dumb. Take it easy there. I was trying to understand exactly what you meant. Have a drink.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by formerTexan View Post
I'm not sure if you equate anti-immigration with anti-illegal-immigration, but I (and most other people) are simply anti-illegal-immigration, and don't have a problem with people following the laws of our nation and coming here legally.

I'm fairly informed on immigration myself, since I came here from another country.
Well my point is that a lot of people who ***** about illegals don't understand how the system is set up in the U.S.

For instance, I came to this country legally as well. Because I had a college degree. If I didn't have one, I couldn't have come here legally unless I married a U.S. citizen.

A lot of people don't understand that there is no avenue for non-college educated immigrants to come here unless they are sponsored by immediate family (children or parents). The H2b visa program is a joke that is capped and fills up immediately, requires a ton of paperwork and a long waiting period. It's not practical for 99% of employers who need the labor.

So my point is: a lot of people who ***** about illegals would probably rethink their rhetoric and be more open to immigration reform if they understood how the current immigration system works (and fails). Just like a lot of anti-gun folks would be better off if they actually bothered to learn about firearms and existing gun laws before blabbing about more gun control.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Since I started this thread I better say that it wasn't to bash immigrants, even illegal ones, it was to point out the hypocrisy of singular bad acts sometimes being used to punish entire groups and sometimes not. It's our government's failure that all these people came in illegally. Both parties condoned it. I was just wishing somebody in this state would say "either we react to the bombings by not legalizing these immigrants and we demand gun control because of shootings, or we stop punishing law abiding gun owners for shootings done by lunatics and tackle immigration reform".
Our gov't shares in the responsible, but it's not their alone to shoulder. The gov't of Mexico and countries further south share in the blame. US employers share in the blame. So do US consumers.

There were really only three brute force methods for the US gov't to prevent the mass migration we have seen. Build a huge wall and add some land mines along the lines of Korea. I wouldn't have wanted that. Or extend manifest destiny all the way to Cape Horn. That surely would have been interesting. Our the gov't could have monitored people as the former USSR did. I wouldn't want that either...
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:15 PM
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Well my point is that a lot of people who ***** about illegals don't understand how the system is set up in the U.S.

For instance, I came to this country legally as well. Because I had a college degree. If I didn't have one, I couldn't have come here legally unless I married a U.S. citizen.

A lot of people don't understand that there is no avenue for non-college educated immigrants to come here unless they are sponsored by immediate family (children or parents). The H2b visa program is a joke that is capped and fills up immediately, requires a ton of paperwork and a long waiting period. It's not practical for 99% of employers who need the labor.

So my point is: a lot of people who ***** about illegals would probably rethink their rhetoric and be more open to immigration reform if they understood how the current immigration system works (and fails). Just like a lot of anti-gun folks would be better off if they actually bothered to learn about firearms and existing gun laws before blabbing about more gun control.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:39 PM
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Well my point is that a lot of people who ***** about illegals don't understand how the system is set up in the U.S.

For instance, I came to this country legally as well. Because I had a college degree. If I didn't have one, I couldn't have come here legally unless I married a U.S. citizen.

A lot of people don't understand that there is no avenue for non-college educated immigrants to come here unless they are sponsored by immediate family (children or parents). The H2b visa program is a joke that is capped and fills up immediately, requires a ton of paperwork and a long waiting period. It's not practical for 99% of employers who need the labor.

So my point is: a lot of people who ***** about illegals would probably rethink their rhetoric and be more open to immigration reform if they understood how the current immigration system works (and fails). Just like a lot of anti-gun folks would be better off if they actually bothered to learn about firearms and existing gun laws before blabbing about more gun control.
1, Not everyone who is an uneducated immigrant would or could be a burden, but with the idea of a public charge I think it is more than fair to insure we dont have all kinds of legal immigrants who are not a benefit to the country. I had seen stats that over half of all legal immigrant households receive welfare or some public assistance. I think we have enough poor people without importing them. If you were an NFL Onwer you would want the best players, shouldn't the usa want the best people?

2 yes the process is long and that does need to be worked on, but if a girl says no you dont make her. You cant just do what you want because you dont like the rules.

3 most people who support amensty also are against our gun rights, which that right there is one reason I would rather get rid of the lot than allow amensty. CA sees nothing wrong with juanita breaking into the country, having 10 anchor babies on public dough yet you cant have high cap mags? That makes alot of sense.

4 look what happened in 1986. We have even more now ( they do reproduce very rapidly and I am sorry if that offends but you can look up birth rates by race). If another amensty passes you can basically take california and it wil be the whole usa within 20 years unless a second civil war stops it. These "people" will vote for the party of free stuff and that means many more anti-gun politicians.
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Old 04-26-2013, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
The stopper is to make it effectively IMPOSSIBLE to hire an illegal alien in the US. With computers the way they are that's largely possible. Those illegal aliens who work in the USA don't do it under-the-table as some believe -- they do it with bogus documents as the penalties are already fairly severe.

The problem is to clamp down to the level that the gov't KNOWS if you have something hinky going on with regard to your payroll requires a close bit of big brother watching over things. We don't like that in the USA. So those screaming for tightened employment documentation/oversight would also be screaming about big brother watching. Further, if things did actually get that tight, the number of illegal aliens working off-the-books would indeed increase.

What do you do with a pregnant mother who waits to present herself to an ER until she's in labor and she purposely does so in a city a good distance away from the border? Do you just ignore her? Let her fend for herself? I think we're better than that.

How about the child? Do we stop our nation's cherished tradition of granting everyone born on US soil, US citizenship by and large? If their parents (or just their mom?) are not citizens then they are not either?

All these questions are extremely deep and the political will to forge a realistic solution to the current situation has largely been lacking from BOTH sides of the aisle since the end of WWII.
I think we need to make it impossible to find work, but there is also tough love and following the law.

In the pregnant mother case she should have immigration called and she should be deported as soon as she can travel with the child. She can't take the child she should not have had it. Heck most of the demographic group most illegals are in voted overwhelmingly for a man ( obama) who sees nothing wrong with severing a baby's spinal cord in the womb up to 9 months along. Seems they talk about "the children" only when it suits them.

The child
I think our 14th amendment was taken advantage of in ways never intended and people who wrote it ( if you read the minutes) said as much that it was not for people who were unlawfully in the country. the anchor babies are one of the main reason we have bleeding hearts about tearing apart families yet people wont blame the person who broke into the country.

IF it stopped that would help stop illegal immigration and I also think it needs to stop if we even begin to discuss amensty. We do not track anchor babies, but I am sure if we did based on demographic trends and working in law enforcement that we would find we spend far more tax dollars than we take in on the children who gain birthright citizenship. Not in every case but most. On top of that now people are having birth tourism????? Do you honestly not have a problem with that?

I appreciate other's having a differing opinion, but I fail to see how someone soft on illegal invaders can claim to love the country, especially when they support people like obama.
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Old 04-26-2013, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Well my point is that a lot of people who ***** about illegals don't understand how the system is set up in the U.S.

For instance, I came to this country legally as well. Because I had a college degree. If I didn't have one, I couldn't have come here legally unless I married a U.S. citizen.

A lot of people don't understand that there is no avenue for non-college educated immigrants to come here unless they are sponsored by immediate family (children or parents). The H2b visa program is a joke that is capped and fills up immediately, requires a ton of paperwork and a long waiting period. It's not practical for 99% of employers who need the labor.

So my point is: a lot of people who ***** about illegals would probably rethink their rhetoric and be more open to immigration reform if they understood how the current immigration system works (and fails). Just like a lot of anti-gun folks would be better off if they actually bothered to learn about firearms and existing gun laws before blabbing about more gun control.

The immigration laws are set up to make America a better country, not to let in people that are going to sit on welfare. If you don't like Americas immigration laws I encourage you to look up the immigration laws for EVERY country in the world, I'm sure you'll find that the immigration laws for the USA are kinda relaxed compared to everyone else.

Besides, you're argument still doesn't justify ILLEGAL immigration. We are taking in Mexico's poor that couldn't make it in their own country. We practically have 2 separate countries in the USA now, those who speak English and those who don't. It's bad enough they break into our country, but then they refuse to assimilate, but of course they don't have to because we translate everything for them. I don't know how much longer we can financially or peacefully keep this up.

Oh! And If farmers would pay a decent wage and we didn't allow people to sit on welfare or unemployment for years on end, I'm sure we could get Americans to pick fruit. When it's either work or starve I'm sure people will work. Besides, with the $$ we'll save on welfare, unemployment, healthcare, teaching people how to speak English, schools, taxes, and translating everything (whether its government or business, you're paying for the translation) I'm sure paying a few dollars more for tomatoes will be a piece of cake... /rant
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Old 04-26-2013, 6:27 PM
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Plus, we could always start the chain gang back up and make the prisoners pick the veggies. Lord knows we have enough prisoners to do it...
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Old 04-26-2013, 6:51 PM
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Plus, we could always start the chain gang back up and make the prisoners pick the veggies. Lord knows we have enough prisoners to do it...
The reason we have so many prisoners is in part because Reagan shut down the mental institutions back in the 80's. Look at the graphs, as the mental hospital patient numbers went down, the prison populations went up. Crazy people now live among us until they commit a crime that incarcerates them. Then if they use a gun to do it, all of us gun owners get blamed. Personally I'd rather get the nut cases under control than the immigrants.
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Old 04-26-2013, 7:47 PM
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The reason we have so many prisoners is in part because Reagan shut down the mental institutions back in the 80's. Look at the graphs, as the mental hospital patient numbers went down, the prison populations went up. Crazy people now live among us until they commit a crime that incarcerates them. Then if they use a gun to do it, all of us gun owners get blamed. Personally I'd rather get the nut cases under control than the immigrants.
While I agree with you that repealing the Mental Health Systems Act was a bad idea, you are insane to think that that is a bigger issue then ILLEGAL immigration. Did you forget about the drug cartel or the average street gangs? What about the identity theft that the government does little to nothing to stop or VOTER FRAUD, tax fraud, welfare fraud, not paying hospital bills.....
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Old 04-26-2013, 7:58 PM
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The stopper is to make it effectively IMPOSSIBLE to hire an illegal alien in the US. With computers the way they are that's largely possible. Those illegal aliens who work in the USA don't do it under-the-table as some believe -- they do it with bogus documents as the penalties are already fairly severe.

The problem is to clamp down to the level that the gov't KNOWS if you have something hinky going on with regard to your payroll requires a close bit of big brother watching over things. We don't like that in the USA. So those screaming for tightened employment documentation/oversight would also be screaming about big brother watching. Further, if things did actually get that tight, the number of illegal aliens working off-the-books would indeed increase.

What do you do with a pregnant mother who waits to present herself to an ER until she's in labor and she purposely does so in a city a good distance away from the border? Do you just ignore her? Let her fend for herself? I think we're better than that.

How about the child? Do we stop our nation's cherished tradition of granting everyone born on US soil, US citizenship by and large? If their parents (or just their mom?) are not citizens then they are not either?

All these questions are extremely deep and the political will to forge a realistic solution to the current situation has largely been lacking from BOTH sides of the aisle since the end of WWII.
My father runs an injection molding company and he checks out every employee working for him but there are two main problems.

1) He can't check their immigration status until after they are hired.

2) If their documentation comes up as bad, he is required to give them 30 days to "find" their proper documents.

3) What do you think will happen if we fire someone for being illegal? They will get a big pay day. And yes, illegal aliens can sue companies in the State of California. My dad laid a group of people off when the economy tanked and one happened to be an illegal alien. She sued the company and the state let it go through. My dad called ICE to report and they didn't care at all.
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Old 04-26-2013, 8:00 PM
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Old 04-26-2013, 8:09 PM
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While I agree with you that repealing the Mental Health Systems Act was a bad idea, you are insane to think that that is a bigger issue then ILLEGAL immigration. Did you forget about the drug cartel or the average street gangs? What about the identity theft that the government does little to nothing to stop or VOTER FRAUD, tax fraud, welfare fraud, not paying hospital bills.....
We ended up moving away from a home we had for decades because of illegal immigration sucking the life out of that town. The schools declined, the gangs took over the streets, multiple families per house with people living in the garages and out on the patios, Mexican music blaring loudly every weekend. It became hell. We were fortunate to be able to move to the coast. But to rage about it just gives you heartburn, there's absolutely nothing you or I can do. Especially in California. Better to focus on what can be improved, like mental health intervention. The government is not going to deport the illegals, or sterilize them, or stop giving them welfare.
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Old 04-26-2013, 8:09 PM
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The reason we have so many prisoners is in part because Reagan shut down the mental institutions back in the 80's. Look at the graphs, as the mental hospital patient numbers went down, the prison populations went up. Crazy people now live among us until they commit a crime that incarcerates them. Then if they use a gun to do it, all of us gun owners get blamed. Personally I'd rather get the nut cases under control than the immigrants.
It's incredibly difficult to get into prison. You have to fight your way in. It demonstrates a form of planning. It's an insult to call prisoners crazy. They do it all full knowing it goes against society. Who are we to take that from them and classify them as mentally disturbed. Real crazy people do not go to a general prison. Yes there are people incarcerated for heinous crimes but they did it knowing and deliberately.
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Old 04-26-2013, 8:14 PM
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There is nothing wrong with controlling who comes into your house. I am the border guard at my home and I decide who and when and how many may cross my threshold. At times it could be many and at other times it could be few. I also decide how long they get to stay. If you do something I don't like you will be evicted and escorted to the border of my property and I probably will not want any of your family members coming in either. In fact I might not allow any one to come in for years.
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Old 04-26-2013, 9:02 PM
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There is nothing wrong with controlling who comes into your house. I am the border guard at my home and I decide who and when and how many may cross my threshold. At times it could be many and at other times it could be few. I also decide how long they get to stay. If you do something I don't like you will be evicted and escorted to the border of my property and I probably will not want any of your family members coming in either. In fact I might not allow any one to come in for years.
Yeah, well now imagine your liberal wife weighs twice as much as you do, shoves you aside as she throws open your door and says "come the hell on in, everybody, the refrigerators all stocked up!"
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Old 04-26-2013, 9:30 PM
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We ended up moving away from a home we had for decades because of illegal immigration sucking the life out of that town. The schools declined, the gangs took over the streets, multiple families per house with people living in the garages and out on the patios, Mexican music blaring loudly every weekend. It became hell. We were fortunate to be able to move to the coast. But to rage about it just gives you heartburn, there's absolutely nothing you or I can do. Especially in California. Better to focus on what can be improved, like mental health intervention. The government is not going to deport the illegals, or sterilize them, or stop giving them welfare.
So, your plan is to throw your hands in the air and give up? That's how it got this bad in the first place. Look at how far we got with the recent federal gun control legislation, there are far more people that are ANTI ILLEGAL immigration then there are pro gun.

The issue is with the media and the government reporting that everyone loves the idea of amnesty and illegal immigration, if you just look at any poll talking about the boarder you would know that it is far from true. But people feel they are alone because there is no "NRA" for immigration and if there is then we all need to join and make their voice louder.

And if you didn't think voter fraud helped Obama get reelected then I don't know what to tell you. Why do you think amnesty is even a topic right now? Because millions of illegals illegally voted for Obama so now he has to return the favor.

We need to unite! Stop amnesty and the anchor baby law, stop the voter fraud and turn off the jobs magnet. Politicians work for us, It's time they remember that.
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Old 04-27-2013, 3:33 AM
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Are you playing dumb? Demonizing gun owners is not more acceptable than demonizing immigrants in general. Why do the same commentators who are clearly in a state of anxiety over the possibility that the bombers could reflect badly upon all immigrants as far as legislation have no such qualms about gun control of all gun owners in response to a couple of mass shootings by lunatics?
"Immigrants?"

You mean "trespassers."

If you enter the country illegally, you are not an illegal "immigrant."

You are a trespasser, a person who has broken a law.

If I take money out of a bank without the bank's permission, did I just make an "undocumented" but legal withdrawal?

You and your ilk might succeed at tricking other people with word games, but you won't fool me.

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Old 04-27-2013, 3:37 AM
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The reason we have so many prisoners is in part because Reagan shut down the mental institutions back in the 80's. Look at the graphs, as the mental hospital patient numbers went down, the prison populations went up. Crazy people now live among us until they commit a crime that incarcerates them. Then if they use a gun to do it, all of us gun owners get blamed. Personally I'd rather get the nut cases under control than the immigrants.
Reagan "shut down" the mental health institutions because the Democrats had been under the spell of Michel Foucault, R.D. Laing, and others for years.

All he did was give them what they had been screaming for since the 1960s.

Now they're still screaming but don't know how to fix the problem . . . without locking up all the crazies again!
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