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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:53 PM
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Exclamation Ammunition Shortages and the Department of Homeland Security - Congress Reports...

Congressman Blake Farenthold (R-TX) said, "Several people have contacted my office with concerns about media reports that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is purchasing large quantities of ammunition rounds-- some have even said the number purchased is in the billions.

Like you, I was extremely alarmed by these claims. These reports raise many questions – but the most glaring to me is why would DHS need such a high volume of ammunition? My colleagues and I have been actively investigating DHS to get this answer, among others, on its seemingly excessive purchase. Here is an update on our latest findings:"

http://texasgopvote.com/issues/stop-...ecurity-005376
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:03 PM
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Why are they using HP for training?
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:18 PM
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Why are they using HP for training?
Because it probably handles differently than FMJ and they should train what they are going to use on the field/line of duty. At least that's what I think the reasoning is.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:34 PM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
Why are they using HP for training?
Because they're not paying for it.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:38 PM
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Because they're not paying for it.
QFMFT.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:39 PM
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Why are they using HP for training?
This was my thought. I carried JHP on duty but I think we only trained with it once... and that was because our order of FMJ hadn't come in yet.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:40 PM
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Because it probably handles differently than FMJ and they should train what they are going to use on the field/line of duty. At least that's what I think the reasoning is.
Way to logical for the gov.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:48 PM
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Why are they using HP for training?
Because if a gun is going to jam with HP you want to know in training rather than if you need to use it.

Because it's easier to just buy one type of ammo.

Because it's not their money
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:57 PM
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How much did it cost to get 2billion+ rounds of JHP? Even at the low end of $0.30/rd (maybe cheaper for them?)

That's over $600,000,000. Seriously.
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Old 04-22-2013, 2:01 PM
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There are people on another gun forum that insist that the Coast Guard uses that much ammo for training because they are at war with Somali pirates.

The sooner we all accept this common sense and reasonable explanation, the sooner we can move on to accepting the fact that DHS bought 2700 MRAPs for food truck conversions.
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Old 04-22-2013, 2:02 PM
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How much did it cost to get 2billion+ rounds of JHP? Even at the low end of $0.30/rd (maybe cheaper for them?)

That's over $600,000,000. Seriously.
You have obviously never worked a gov job or worked a gov contract. Those guys have a "use it or loose it" budget. And since it isn't their money, they just spend whatever they want. My gov counterparts have 3 hour long "team building" lunches complete with margaritas to burn their budget near year end.

Why do you think states with no income tax works fine but states with high tax rates (e.g. CA) keep working themselves into deficits?
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Old 04-22-2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sammich View Post
There are people on another gun forum that insist that the Coast Guard uses that much ammo for training because they are at war with Somali pirates.

The sooner we all accept this common sense and reasonable explanation, the sooner we can move on to accepting the fact that DHS bought 2700 MRAPs for food truck conversions.
Hmm, that does make sense. MRAPs would make great food trucks in bad neigborhoods!
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Old 04-22-2013, 2:18 PM
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The US long ago abandoned the ‘spirit’ of the convention with the 5.56mm NATO round. FMJ or not it either explodes like a mini grenade due to high velocity or tumbles like an edger blade due to instability; depending on range. I have shot enough coyotes and bobcats with it to know. If the government really had a problem with it I’m sure they could hire some really bright terminal ballistic experts to design a bullet that would not blow up.
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Old 04-22-2013, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by penguin0123 View Post
You have obviously never worked a gov job or worked a gov contract. Those guys have a "use it or loose it" budget. And since it isn't their money, they just spend whatever they want. My gov counterparts have 3 hour long "team building" lunches complete with margaritas to burn their budget near year end.

Why do you think states with no income tax works fine but states with high tax rates (e.g. CA) keep working themselves into deficits?
Not only that, but don't many of them also have a "use it all or get less next year" budget?

A.W.D.
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sammich View Post
There are people on another gun forum that insist that the Coast Guard uses that much ammo for training because they are at war with Somali pirates.

The sooner we all accept this common sense and reasonable explanation, the sooner we can move on to accepting the fact that DHS bought 2700 MRAPs for food truck conversions.
The coast guard can't use JHP ammo, they fall under the DON in certain cases and I can't see how that would make some happy. IMHO I've never seen a coastie carry JHP, but it would be cool in 50 cal.....
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:21 PM
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I call BS!!!!

So, for 2010, 2011, 2012, they bought 348, 000,000 rounds. lets assume that each year, like last year, they practiced with 20,000,000

348,000,000 - 60,000,000 = leaves 288,000,000. close enough to the 260,000,000 they claim to have a surplus of....


So, WTF, do they need to buy another 500m rounds? they have enough surplus to last 13 years of training
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2013, 1:11 AM
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Here is more detailed information: http://huelskamp.house.gov/index.php...atid=44:issues
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Old 04-23-2013, 2:13 AM
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Simple, they buy it all before it gets to the stores so you can't get any.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:52 AM
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No one has picked up yet on what seems to me to be the obvious upside of this report.

Due to across the board budget cuts (i.e., the sequester), it is unlikely that agencies will be able to continue to purchase ammunition at these levels. Potentially hundreds of million of rounds worth of manufacturing capacity that had been consumed by the federal government might end up being redirected to the open market.

Can you say "buy one (case, crate, pallet), get one free"?
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:01 AM
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I am sure that it is a coincidence that in 08' they saw a run on the gun shops and ammo went through the roof (mostly due to gov contracts being filled at the same time) AND even bigger gov contracts started right before a ton of firearms legislation was pushed like crazy.

Totally a coincidence.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:22 AM
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They train with jhp because you should always train with what u carry. You should always use the exact same ammo to train with as you carry everyday
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by megolfer View Post
They train with jhp because you should always train with what u carry. You should always use the exact same ammo to train with as you carry everyday
Being friends with DHS agents in customs, they only get ammo for qualifying
shoots. They have to provide their own ammo for practice, so they use what is cheapest and write off some of the costs on their taxes. By using hardball ammo, or even self cast for training, they can get lots more practice.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:36 AM
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They train with jhp because you should always train with what u carry. You should always use the exact same ammo to train with as you carry everyday
Sure, to a point, but none of us I doubt spend the day at the range blasting away with expensive defense ammo. Maybe "grain for grain" and matched velocities, but not actual defensive loads exclusively.

A.W.D.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YubaRiver View Post
Being friends with DHS agents in customs, they only get ammo for qualifying
shoots. They have to provide their own ammo for practice, so they use what is cheapest and write off some of the costs on their taxes. By using hardball ammo, or even self cast for training, they can get lots more practice.
It would be interesting to hear from some Fed LEOs on this topic.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:04 AM
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The guy's got nothing. He's just repeating the conspiracy theories we've heard in here before.

Wake me up when actual information surfaces.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:22 AM
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When the government tries to control the market it is the start of faciam
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:48 AM
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When the government tries to control the market it is the start of faciam
True, but it always fails.

When the government tried to intervene in solar energy (e.g. Solyndra) the price of solar panels collapsed. Now the charge is that the government is deliberately jacking up ammo prices. Why do people believe that they will be successful this time when they failed every other time?
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Old 04-23-2013, 1:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YubaRiver View Post
Being friends with DHS agents in customs, they only get ammo for qualifying
shoots. They have to provide their own ammo for practice, so they use what is cheapest and write off some of the costs on their taxes. By using hardball ammo, or even self cast for training, they can get lots more practice.
I dont know about your friend, but my friend in ICE gets cases for each of his guns (1 hand gun, 2 carbines) to practice, and qualify. He gets a few thousand rounds a year
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Old 04-23-2013, 1:31 PM
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It's just a matter of time before major ammo manufactures and suppliers are bought up by Uncle Sam or private companies funded by Uncle Sam.
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Old 04-23-2013, 1:42 PM
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As sreiter points out, they have 263 million rounds on hand, with annual usage of about 20 million. That's a 13.2 year supply without purchasing another round!

Another illustration of how government chooses to spend, spend, spend. They've got to use up the budget in order to request an increase next year. Wasteful, ridiculous spending. It's unconscionable.
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Old 04-23-2013, 2:07 PM
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The guy's got nothing. He's just repeating the conspiracy theories we've heard in here before.

Wake me up when actual information surfaces.
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I just saw this. From the DHL whitepaper, they say that their purchases since 2006 have been at constant levels, the main change in 2006 was the hiring of 2000 new Border Patrol agents, that they only restock for the amount that they use and that they keep a two-year supply as a matter of policy.

Although shooting 120 million rounds year for training seems excessive, I agree that there doesn't appear to be any real conspiracy. Just the usual government waste.
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Old 04-23-2013, 2:41 PM
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The guy's got nothing. He's just repeating the conspiracy theories we've heard in here before.
Who is "we"?

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Old 04-23-2013, 2:53 PM
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They train with jhp because you should always train with what u carry. You should always use the exact same ammo to train with as you carry everyday
BS. No police agency trains with hollow points. They can barely afford to train with FMJ. There is NO downside to using FMJ training rounds. One only has to shoot enough duty ammo to verify reliability in the gun. After 5 or 10 flawless magazines, it's good to go. The likelihood of some malfunction, sometime, is a training issue that is addressed.
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Old 04-23-2013, 3:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammich View Post
There are people on another gun forum that insist that the Coast Guard uses that much ammo for training because they are at war with Somali pirates.

The sooner we all accept this common sense and reasonable explanation, the sooner we can move on to accepting the fact that DHS bought 2700 MRAPs for food truck conversions.
Well played.
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:39 PM
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Long has passed since a good friend of mines father was a Stockton PD Sergeant. Oh how I miss the days of him bringing the cases of duty ammo to work and passing out hundreds of rounds for free.

In short, much of that ammo will end up in the homes of department employees and their friends or family. Use it or loose it budgets.
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