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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-21-2013, 8:39 PM
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Default What Makes Tyranny Successful ?

This is a topic we all talk about, but do YOU actually give it any real thought ? In other words, and to bottom line it, if it came down to it, would YOU fire on police and military if you had to, to protect and defend the constitution from the tyranny of government ?

The topic is of course as the title implies. So what exactly makes tyranny successful ? Is it people blindly obeying every edict handed down by law makers ? Is it police and military enforcing unconstitutional edicts ? Or is it a combination of the two ? We know that politicians won't be kicking in doors and taking firearms. That would certainly make it easy for me. No, it will be those who have the guns, that will come to take ours.

Here is a link that speaks about the question and the apparent steps that the executive office is taking in an attempt to put in place those who would comply with what amount to unlawful orders.

police told to choose gun control or constitution

Before I get hammered for encouraging the shooting of police and military, read the article and ask yourself, will you be one of those that are removed from your position because of your stance on the constitution ? Or will you be one of those that will comply with unlawful orders to save your job ? Whether you like it or not, it really is coming down to that.
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Speaking about the destruction of the United States. "I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times, or die by suicide. Abraham Lincoln Speech at Edwardsville, IL, September 11, 1858

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Old 04-21-2013, 8:44 PM
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Tyranny is made successful by the masses, who are more than willing to give up rights they never cared for in the first place. The country and its people are in the state that it's in, not because some guy snuck in like a thief in the night and changed America and gave it its current ills, but because people would rather give up their liberties and freedoms in exchange for the ridiculous promise of being taken care of by the government.

I don't focus my ire on the government and their schemes, I save that for the people that vote and support those overlords and welcome the tyranny. As for having to go to war with the government itself, well, correct me if I'm wrong but Constitutionalists such as ourselves are in the sad majority, slowly being diluted and outnumbered every day. In my opinion, there won't be much of a war to be waged against a tyrannical government because there'll be too few people to fight it...
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:45 PM
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Compliance.
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:48 PM
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The low information Owebama voter.
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:50 PM
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It's very simple. Promises of safety, security, peace, happiness, and the promise that you will be relieved of all of life's basic duties and responsibilities, are very seductive.

How many advertizers use the phrase: "Our product makes life easy!"

But the promises can never be kept. Every generation needs to be taught.
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cfm117 View Post
The low information Owebama voter.
It's been happening much longer than that.
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Old 04-21-2013, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by myk View Post
Tyranny is made successful by the masses, who are more than willing to give up rights they never cared for in the first place. The country and its people are in the state that it's in, not because some guy snuck in like a thief in the night and changed America and gave it its current ills, but because people would rather give up their liberties and freedoms in exchange for the ridiculous promise of being taken care of by the government.

I don't focus my ire on the government and their schemes, I save that for the people that vote and support those overlords and welcome the tyranny. As for having to go to war with the government itself, well, correct me if I'm wrong but Constitutionalists such as ourselves are in the sad majority, slowly being diluted and outnumbered every day. In my opinion, there won't be much of a war to be waged against a tyrannical government because there'll be too few people to fight it...
I don't think people have actually changed that much in 236 years. If history is any indication, a majority of Americans won't go to war, just like the majority of British subjects refused to go to war at the beginning of the American Revolution. And if history is any indication, and our politicians do the same thing that King George did...I mean beyond what they're doing now, and it boils down to taking back our rights by force, there will be a lot of lost battles, hardship, massive casualties resulting in a loss of manpower, and any number of problems faced by the continental army. But, just the same, victories will motivate people to join. Losing freedoms beyond what they expected will cause people to join the fight, and resolve to take freedom back will be the motivator. I think American's will step up and win, contrary to what some will tell us.
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Speaking about the destruction of the United States. "I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times, or die by suicide. Abraham Lincoln Speech at Edwardsville, IL, September 11, 1858

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Old 04-21-2013, 9:06 PM
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Compliance.
^ This.
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Old 04-21-2013, 9:08 PM
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Acceptance.

There's a fine line between revolutionary hero and terrorist. Like wise , there's an equally fine line between uncomfortable and unacceptable.

I've seen concerns and protest regarding the searches in Watertown but I have yet to see or hear about groups including gun owners being disarmed or arrested.

In the past (during times of our greatest victories) we as a society collectively surrendered rights or sat by and accepted fellow Americans rights being taken.

There is no great discussion on CG that I've seen about the deportation of Americans of Japanese and German decent to prison camps or the seizing of their assets by unscrupulous politicians / fellow citizens.

Quite the contrary, neighbors and local communities who knew these people (in some cases for 2 or more generations), celebrated the action. There was no question that constitutional rights were being trampled but those neighbors accepted it because it was clearly defined and they weren't targeted. So what would we do?

If the government began rounding up people of Chechnyn decent because they uncovered an upcoming massive terror campaign of unknown complexity. Would we rise in support of our fellow Americans, or would we join in the chorus of cheers and hisses?
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Old 04-21-2013, 9:31 PM
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Its proven that people will agree with something no matter how horrible it is, as long as a perceived authority figure says the act in question is kosher.

Think about Hitler, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, and others. Those guys wouldn't be able to murder as they did unless the people beneath them thought it was the right thing to do. The worst atrocities in global history ultimately happened because at the time, people who answered to the leadership genuinely thought it was a good idea. It was only in the aftermath that they realized the horror of their actions.

We're seeing this happen here with regard to guns.The reason states like California, Colorado, etc have shredded the Bill of Rights is because their citizenry, for a list of reasons, THINKS ITS A GOOD IDEA. Anti gun legislation is being advanced in many states after Newtown because their constituents feel banning guns is an example of wise intensions.

The rub is that history proved long ago that the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions.
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Old 04-21-2013, 9:42 PM
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'just following orders'
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Old 04-21-2013, 9:52 PM
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Tyranny happens when the majority of the population accepts the ideology of "The Greater Good". When the people accept that oppression of a minority is ok as long as the majority is kept in the dark.

Or.. plain and simple... Ignorance of the general populace...
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:53 PM
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Ask OBUMMER and DIfi .
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:03 AM
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All bad precedents begans as justifiable measures- Gaius Julius Caesar
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:17 AM
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"what makes tyranny successful?"


Stupid people.
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Old 04-22-2013, 5:05 AM
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I think ignorance makes tyranny successful

Most of the people don't even see the forest through the trees when it comes to their rights

When told they can no longer do "this" or "that" they just accept it as the law of the land
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Old 04-22-2013, 5:09 AM
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My parents came from an Eastern European country that had the highest kill rate of Jews back in the early 1940's. The citizens at the time believed that if they helped the Nazis the result would be that the general population would have more freedoms, as that was what was promised. As long as the majority of the population has a carrot on stick held in front of them, they'll agree to anything including exterminating their neighbors. That's how tyranny works, it makes the populace think they will personally benefit from it someday.
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Old 04-22-2013, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
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What Makes Tyranny Successful?

apathy
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Old 04-22-2013, 5:21 AM
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Simple-

It's done to make you safe and it's for the children.

With those lines anything can be passed - who, in their right mind would be against it?
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Old 04-22-2013, 5:23 AM
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Its a mix of propaganda and fear.

Your going to have some:

true believers. There are still socialists in Russia for instance. Another example; we had to make Germans help clean up concentration camps since many refused to believe they were as bad as what people were saying... so we needed German witnesses...

Opportunists... big gov has big money if your willing to play ball.

Everyone else who lives in fear of 1 and 2.

Of course; the left described our society as being like this model before they had power... and now that they do; this is what they are creating.
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G60 View Post
Compliance.
Right, but why do people comply?

Typically tyranny begins with a fear of a threat (foreign or domestic) by which the tyrant assumes power. That power is then maintained by a combination of fear the same or new threat plus, wehre that proves inadequate, the fear of the tyrant himself.

Quote:
In ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word "tyrannos", possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[5] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy land owners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy. The Greek tyrants stayed in power by using mercenary soldiers from outside of their respective city-state. To mock tyranny, Thales wrote that the strangest thing to see is "an aged tyrant" meaning that tyrants do not have the public support to survive for long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

and

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In the Roman Republic the term "Dictator" did not have the negative meaning it has later assumed. Rather, a Dictator was a person given sole power (unlike the normal Roman republican practice, where rule was divided between two equal Consuls) for a specific limited period, in order to deal with an emergency. At the end of his term, the Dictator was supposed to hand power over to the normal Consular rule and give account of his actions – and Roman Dictators usually did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:42 AM
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Tyranny rises through the peoples fear, government propaganda from news and even in schools. I see this tipping point coming too, I really hope I'm wrong, but when you look at the rights that they already have violated, it's not looking good at all. They've violated the first amendment with the anti-protest bill, they violated the 4th, 5th and 6th amendment with the NDAA and patriot act and it seems they are itching to violate our second amendment. And also correct me if i'm wrong, but they violated the third amendment in Boston too, the 3rd amendment reads: "No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law". And as I've been able to see on videos is that there were swat and soldiers going through everybody's houses. I carry a copy of the constitution so I know my rights, but a lot of people don't know their rights and I haven't been in the military, but I know they swear an oath to the constitution, but my question is, does the military teach the soldiers the amendments of the constitution or do they just blindly follow orders even though the orders might violate the oath they took?
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
Tyranny is made successful by the masses, who are more than willing to give up rights they never cared for in the first place. The country and its people are in the state that it's in, not because some guy snuck in like a thief in the night and changed America and gave it its current ills, but because people would rather give up their liberties and freedoms in exchange for the ridiculous promise of being taken care of by the government.
Yeap, it happens because an uneducated populace (just Google for Obama Phone lol) let it happen.
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Old 04-22-2013, 6:56 AM
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A good movie that is worth watching and has something to say on this particular topic...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/...item=qt0345547
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Old 04-22-2013, 7:12 AM
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Quote:
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apathy
^^^^QFT
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Old 04-22-2013, 7:19 AM
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Why were governments created?



Tyrannies succeed for the same basic reasons. The people look to someone strong to protect them from an actual or perceived threat.
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Old 04-22-2013, 7:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
My parents came from an Eastern European country that had the highest kill rate of Jews back in the early 1940's. The citizens at the time believed that if they helped the Nazis the result would be that the general population would have more freedoms, as that was what was promised. As long as the majority of the population has a carrot on stick held in front of them, they'll agree to anything including exterminating their neighbors. That's how tyranny works, it makes the populace think they will personally benefit from it someday.
The flip side of this is Denmark which had the lowest kill rate among its Jewish population. They smuggled 90% of their Jewish population to Sweden and safety. They did not see the Jewish people as Jewish, in the sense of different, but as friends, neighbors, co-workers and fellow human beings. When we become so individualistic that we lose sight of our common humanity then we are most vulnerable to tyranny.

Elie Wiesel wrestled with this question after the Holocaust. Why hadn't the citizens of the town he had lived in asked questions? Where were they taking those Jewish people? What was happening? That was even harder for him to understand than what the Nazis did to him.
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Old 04-22-2013, 8:26 AM
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I believe the answer is found in understanding the flaws of human nature. There are more weak minded people than there are strong minded people. Some strong minded people are true leaders and look out for the people they lead. Other strong minded people, use their strength to seek power, money and prestige at the expense of those who are unwilling to oppose them.

I read that only 3 percent of our population fought the British during our Revolutionary War. The remainder of the population was apathetic, uninvolved and wanted the status quo.

In the history of mankind, we are the best country to have ever existed. We have created liberty and freedom for our citizens, and freed others in the world from tyranny. No other country has ever done this. I attribute our country’s success to relying upon God’s principles. Our Constitution has been the most successful constitution in the history of mankind. However, we the people have allowed our government to exceed the limitations of authority set forth in the constitution. This has been happening almost since the creation of our country and in current times we are seeing our government exponentially exceed the limitations of the constitution. In my opinion, it is only a short time away before our constitution is no longer the law.

As an attorney, if I had the chance to advise our founding fathers, I would have encouraged them to expound upon the Second Amendment declaring, that citizens have the duty to use force to curtail the government when it exceeds the constitution. I know of no other law, that empowers the people to use any other means other than the vote to curtail the government. In my opinion, our voting system is broken.

Unfortunately our government is a reflection of a majority of the citizens.
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Old 04-22-2013, 9:06 AM
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Quote:
There is no great discussion on CG that I've seen about the deportation of Americans of Japanese and German decent to prison camps or the seizing of their assets by unscrupulous politicians / fellow citizens.

Hate to say it, but the Japanese internment camps were a *****ty solution to a real situation. We knew who the Japanese spies in America were, since we had broken the Japanese codes. Unfortunately, if we had just rounded up those spies that we knew of, and left all the good Americans of Japanese descent alone, the Japanese Imperial Government would have taken a step back, realized that we know something that we shouldn't, changed their codes, resulting in making winning the war all that much harder.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but if I were in charge, I would have just rounded up the spies we knew of, just to flip the bird to the Japanese Imperial Government.


Quote:
Quite the contrary, neighbors and local communities who knew these people (in some cases for 2 or more generations), celebrated the action. There was no question that constitutional rights were being trampled but those neighbors accepted it because it was clearly defined and they weren't targeted. So what would we do?

If the government began rounding up people of Chechnyn decent because they uncovered an upcoming massive terror campaign of unknown complexity. Would we rise in support of our fellow Americans, or would we join in the chorus of cheers and hisses?
I personally don't know anyone of Chechnyn origin (that I'm aware of...) But I personally wouldn't stand for it. We're in a different sort of war than WW2. Rounding up people en masse isn't going to work.

We need information in this fight we find ourselves in. We don't need a high body-count like in wars past. (Although I wouldn't be opposed to a high terrorist body-count.) It does no good to round up random people of one ethnic group, when you don't even know who the hell you're looking for in the first place.

We need to know who radicalized and led those two Boston bombers. We need to know who they are, where they come from, where they currently live, and who else they've trained, taught how to make and given bombs to. We need to take them out, and by taking them out, we'll take out a sizable chunk of their evil network, and leave everyone else alone.

Seeing those armored vehicles going through the streets of Boston looking for that 19 year old kid really was overkill, in my opinion, and the last thing they should've done IMO. It was a sign of weakness, if you ask me. You're going to spend all those resources looking for a single or pair of individuals who could have skipped town and be halfway around the globe by now? It was the idiocy of those two kids that did them in.

If you're going after a crazy bomber, the last thing you want to do is present a large juicy target for your enemy. Those groups of cops in full armor, with their assault weapons locked and loaded looked like an IED explosion waiting to happen to me.

What if, instead of a pair of idiot kids, they were facing a pair of young men, battle-hardened from war in Iraq/Afghanistan, who decided to go "full-jihad" on these cops? What if they had broken into a car, placed another bomb inside it, and waited patiently for the cops to come walking/rolling by, and then remote detonated it?

I really don't think we're ready for this kind of fight if you ask me.
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Old 04-22-2013, 9:31 AM
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I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet...


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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
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Old 04-22-2013, 9:36 AM
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What Makes Tyranny Successful ?

Azzhat liberals and New England state republicans
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:05 AM
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FeuerFrei FeuerFrei is offline
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The Boston thing was an epic fail of the govt to keep people safe on every level.
While LE was "tracking" the bomber down, people were in lock down in their homes which seems to be a form of blanket house arrest. People complied and said nothing!
LE was running around showing off their new gear to justify acquisitions of the same and satisfy the masses watching the news to entice a false sense of security.
The perp was found by a citizen in his back yard while smoking a cigarette. Hmmm.
Tyranny has been with us for many years and freedom is marching off a cliff.
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  #33  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:57 AM
Wiz-of-Awd Wiz-of-Awd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
The Boston thing was an epic fail of the govt to keep people safe on every level.
While LE was "tracking" the bomber down, people were in lock down in their homes which seems to be a form of blanket house arrest. People complied and said nothing!
LE was running around showing off their new gear to justify acquisitions of the same and satisfy the masses watching the news to entice a false sense of security.
The perp was found by a citizen in his back yard while smoking a cigarette. Hmmm.
Tyranny has been with us for many years and freedom is marching off a cliff.
People generally feel safe in their homes, and felt it to be a prudent thing to do with a terrorist running around in their neighborhood/s.

Much like they would during a freak killer storm or act of nature I suppose...

A.W.D.
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  #34  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:17 PM
im2ninja4u im2ninja4u is offline
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Good men to standby and do nothing.
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:12 PM
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Fate Fate is offline
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Label it "common-sense."
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Old 04-22-2013, 1:58 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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I think it's human nature to resist change.....to one's personal circumstances that is.....so when this kinda stuff starts comind down the pike people will naturally look to "what must I do to maintain the status quo in my own life". As long as the focus is on some OTHER group they're ok with that and will even support it thinking it will help to maintain their current status quo.

Most people lack the ability to think a little further down the road and be able to play out possible outcomes of their choices today. They only think about now and keep doing that until suddenly "now" is when the focus is on them or they realize they're sold themselves into a corner for which their is no escape.

The other factor is that in reality the majority of the population is fairly lazy and are glad to let someone else handle everything which is just fertile ground for tyrannys. Because if you make alot of great promises upfront, people will just willing hand themselves over to you without a fight or so much as a whimper.
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  #37  
Old 04-22-2013, 3:14 PM
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Just take a look at how in less than 20 years the Nazi party rose to power in Germany.
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Old 04-22-2013, 4:04 PM
sammich sammich is offline
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After decades of observation, this is my conclusion as to how tyranny will be successful in the U.S.:

The flag waving useful idiots FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT that not only think it is "patriotic" to support, but have the delusional belief that they would never become victims of laws and policies oppressive to "undesirables". I wish I had a dollar for every time I was told by some "USA! USA! USA!" screaming nobhead that the Patriot Act would NEVER be used against U.S. citizens and only against terrorists.

"A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."

- James Madison Speech, Constitutional Convention (1787-06-29)
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Old 04-22-2013, 4:41 PM
sl0re10 sl0re10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
The Boston thing was an epic fail of the govt to keep people safe on every level.
While LE was "tracking" the bomber down, people were in lock down in their homes which seems to be a form of blanket house arrest. People complied and said nothing!
LE was running around showing off their new gear to justify acquisitions of the same and satisfy the masses watching the news to entice a false sense of security.
The perp was found by a citizen in his back yard while smoking a cigarette. Hmmm.
Tyranny has been with us for many years and freedom is marching off a cliff.
Part of it is an east coast culture thing. They have similar weather related lock downs a couple times a year. If your going to have a bunch of leos running around with tact gear they don't get to play with often... remembering what happened in LA... staying home might be a good idea...
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Old 04-22-2013, 4:50 PM
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Tyranny is never ultimately permanently successful as it is man's nature to be free. Rather, it is an evil with a regenerating head that must be decapitated from time to time so that inevitable freedom will prevail. This is not to say that tyranny has not and cannot generate mass destruction and enslavement, nor that vigilance is not required to keep tyranny squelched, but that ultimately those who stand for liberty of the individual will prevail.
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