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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:39 PM
Excelsior Excelsior is offline
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Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
A better video would have snippets of all the full spectrum of gun owners. Each with a short phrase spoken into the camera.

The spectrum:

Paramedics
Lawyers
Priests
Nurses
Doctors
Bakers/Chefs
Teachers
Democrats (lots of liberal democrats)
Soccer Moms
Women and women of color
Musicians (classical would be best)
Etc, etc.
Gay couples.

Possible Dialogue:

"I'm a liberal Democrat. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay marriage *and* pro-gun."

"I'm an 18 year carreer paramedic; I'm a New York City liberal; I'm pro-choice; for gay marriage; pro-gun rights." (<- that's me, actually)

Get these clips of *real* gun owners (unlike MAIG actors in plaid shirts) and have someone edit them into a montage.

These videos would scare the poop out of the likes of Gillibrand, Feinstein and Schumer.
I don't think it would be a "better" video. Only different.
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  #42  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by retiredAFcop View Post
You don't even have to search youtube - because fellow Calgunners have already watched bunches of videos and selected the best of them - here's post #5 from the "video library" thread (The Pyle video linked to by several people earlier in this thread) - it's not Colion Noir, and it's pretty old, but explains it pretty well. The "video library" thread was created to keep useful videos like this in one, easy to find, spot.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=696865
That's a neat video but it's not what I described. It's 10 minutes in length and it's not the least bit slick. While it disseminates good information it does nothing to sell.
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  #43  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:46 PM
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It's sad that some simply lack the vision. So many are blinded by their own ignorance and bitterness.

That where the pro-2A lobby (NRA, GOA, CRPA, etc.) seems to really flounder -- getting the truth out to those who simply do not know any better.

I suspect at some point down the road the NRA will make a video like this. Hopefully others as well. I hope it figures out an effective way to "sell" them to the masses.

The impact could be profoundly positive for supporting the RKBA.
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  #44  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
With all due respect, sir:

Google: https://www.google.com/#safe=off&out...iw=960&bih=513

Some Techies Hear Call of the Shooting Range: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...214799970.html

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=...iw=960&bih=513

That last search Google auto-completed the query with "buying guns" just after I typed the letter B.

You ain't helping by perpetuating the "baby stroller pushing, Starbucks hang-out Palo Alto types, of Silicon Valley" stereotype.

We need to embrace them and kill them with kindness. You sound a little angry and "extreme" when you write things that.

Again, with all due respect.
Knock yourself out, by all means. I won't waste my time. As I said, I have been acquainted with too many of them, personally- for a lot of years.

LOL, I am probably one of the LEAST "angry and extreme" people on this forum. I have even been called a "troll" for expressing some moderate views here.

I never liked these types before this whole mess flared up. But, you go ahead if you think you can make a difference.
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  #45  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by aileron View Post
Colin already did something like this. Not exactly but good enough. There are a bunch of them out there though.

Neat vid. Not at all what I described though.

And it's "Colion", not "Colin."
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  #46  
Old 04-21-2013, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
With all due respect, sir:

Google: https://www.google.com/#safe=off&out...iw=960&bih=513

Some Techies Hear Call of the Shooting Range: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...214799970.html

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=...iw=960&bih=513

That last search Google auto-completed the query with "buying guns" just after I typed the letter B.

You ain't helping by perpetuating the "baby stroller pushing, Starbucks hang-out Palo Alto types, of Silicon Valley" stereotype.

We need to embrace them and kill them with kindness. You sound a little angry and "extreme" when you write things that.


Again, with all due respect.
Amen.

More and more I see attacks on such groups as outbursts of envy more than anything else.

Perhaps envy is what actually drives a lot of the hatred and bigotry spewed towards "liberals" within this context.
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  #47  
Old 04-21-2013, 2:13 PM
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I've converted a bunch of mildly anti-gun people. Let me tell you: facts don't come first. You have to start out by being a relateable, non-threatening, non-stereotypical ambassador. In my experience, a common problem is not knowing any (open) gun owners and holding negative stereotypes about us all being coarse fat rednecks. Help them make the mental connection between guns and someone they respect (you). Show them you're an ordinary person, just like them. Don't argue or debate, it's not time yet. Just be comfortable in your own skin.

Encourage others to come out of the "gun closet" if your social circle or workplace is not a majority gun owner environment. Help to normalize gun ownership and gun owners. Once mildly anti-gun people realize that they're surrounded by normal people who own guns, their attitudes will slowly start to change. They'll begin to feel left out of the group whenever the conversation turns to Magpul furniture and semi-wadcutters. They'll want to learn the lingo so they know what you're talking about. They'll become curious. THAT'S when it's time to explain them the difference between semi-auto and full auto firearms.

You don't change someone's mind with facts. For most people, facts only cement an already-held position. To convince, you have to employ more a social or emotional means of persuasion.

Now the hardcore anti-gun people: they're probably hopeless. Don't even try.

Last edited by pointedstick; 04-21-2013 at 2:18 PM..
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  #48  
Old 04-21-2013, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
Amen.

More and more I see attacks on such groups as outbursts of envy more than anything else.

Perhaps envy is what actually drives a lot of the hatred and bigotry spewed towards "liberals" within this context.
Dude, if you're including me in that statement (and I think you are) well, you don't know me.

Don't try to turn this into an "envy issue" with me. It don't fly.

When my sons were growing up, they went to private schools. I lived in Portola Valley and Woodside, so I don't know where you think of where I come from but, I lived a lifestyle on par with all of them.

And I retired at 55 years old after both kids graduated college.

I just don't like 'em because of their "ME" attitudes and sense of entitlement they seem to all possess. They don't openly voice it but, privately among themselves, they look down their noses at the people who are not CEO's or CFO's of some start-up company. Or some other such "big shot" title.

As I said, NONE of them are native Californians like I am. Just about ALL of them were from back east and went to college out here, to Berkley or Stanford, then settled in Silicon Valley after.

I don't like them because of their attitudes. Has nothing to do with have's and have-nots.

And anyone who reads your above post should take offense at your totally baseless inference.

Last edited by M14 Junkie; 04-21-2013 at 2:34 PM..
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2013, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pointedstick View Post
I've converted a bunch of mildly anti-gun people. Let me tell you: facts don't come first. You have to start out by being a relateable, non-threatening, non-stereotypical ambassador. In my experience, a common problem is not knowing any (open) gun owners and holding negative stereotypes about us all being coarse fat rednecks. Help them make the mental connection between guns and someone they respect (you). Show them you're an ordinary person, just like them. Don't argue or debate, it's not time yet. Just be comfortable in your own skin.

Encourage others to come out of the "gun closet" if your social circle or workplace is not a majority gun owner environment. Help to normalize gun ownership and gun owners. Once mildly anti-gun people realize that they're surrounded by normal people who own guns, their attitudes will slowly start to change. They'll begin to feel left out of the group whenever the conversation turns to Magpul furniture and semi-wadcutters. They'll want to learn the lingo so they know what you're talking about. They'll become curious. THAT'S when it's time to explain them the difference between semi-auto and full auto firearms.

You don't change someone's mind with facts. For most people, facts only cement an already-held position. To convince, you have to employ more a social or emotional means of persuasion.

Now the hardcore anti-gun people: they're probably hopeless. Don't even try.
One of the best posts on this thread. Thanks.

I don't think the video I described would be by any means the first input many would receive on guns.

You're very correct when you say it cannot be confrontational. The video's actor(s)/actress(es) would ideally be people who are already well respected by a large swatch of the US.

I think facts most certainly change peoples' minds but a huge part of that process is how they are delivered and supported.
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
I am bone-tired of the misapplied and inflammatory label of "assault weapon" and why some guns are banned and others are not despite identical firepower. I am really wondering why the NRA or someone else did not make the following short video.

Begin at a shooting bench with someone like Colion Noir. On the bench have an honest to goodness Sturmgewehr StG 44, a select-fire M16, an AR15, and a Mini-14.

Have him briefly explain the Nazi genesis of the "assault weapon" label followed by running a full mag through the StG 44. Follow this by running a full 30 round mag through the M16 timed with a shot timer. Display the calculated shots/minute.

Then compare the much slower AR15 and emphasize that it is not a fully automatic "assault weapon." Calculate the timed rate of fire and compare it to the M16. Do the same with the Ruger Mini-14 and ask the question of why the AR15 would be banned and the Mini-14 would not be banned?

Keep it as short and simple as possible. Keep telling people to refer to a simple URL like www.nra.com/guntest I think it done correctly it would have cut through a whole bunch of confusion and misunderstanding.
Most of the antis simply don't care. The slower firing AR15 is still way too much fire power for the vast majority of them. And most would likely say, "Exactly! We should ban the Mini 14 too!"
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  #51  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:06 PM
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I just had to laugh. This profile that some are trying to craft as one to hate -- non CA native, Silicon Valley/Peninsula, moderately Democratic, etc. etc. sounds a lot like people like Gene Hoffman...

I know MANY ardently PRO-2A individuals who live in all parts of the Bay Area. I think both Stanford and Cal are among the greatest universities in the entire world -- particularly if one has their head screwed-on straight before they enter either one.

While the Silicon Valley is a bit hot for my tastes, I really do like the Peninsula. An exceptional place to grow-up and live in this wide world is one is lucky enough to do so.

In the end the notion that peoples' minds cannot be changed through honest education and a little salesmanship to get things rolling is pure crap. It does however take smarts, effort and great resolve.

It also takes learning not to blame the mythical beast known to some as "liberals" for all the ills of the world.
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:10 PM
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Most of the antis simply don't care. The slower firing AR15 is still way too much fire power for the vast majority of them. And most would likely say, "Exactly! We should ban the Mini 14 too!"
Naw, I don't think so. If the presentation was correct, the difference between the M16 and the AR15 would be startling and thought provoking to anyone.

Once the videos took off, hammering away of the disingenuous and inflammatory use of "assault weapons" would do some real damage.

So would making some guns illegal based only on cosmetic features.
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  #53  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:31 PM
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Your making comments that you cannot substantiate.
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
It's sad that some simply lack the vision. So many are blinded by their own ignorance and bitterness.
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
More and more I see attacks on such groups as outbursts of envy more than anything else.
Wow, you have described your NRA threads and self perfectly.
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:48 PM
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Wow, you have described your NRA threads and self perfectly.
LOL yep, have to admit he is good. I usually pick up on a troll quickly but he flew in under the radar. Got his number now though.
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  #55  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:59 PM
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LOL yep, have to admit he is good. I usually pick up on a troll quickly but he flew in under the radar. Got his number now though.
He does this about once a week, a new thread, always with some criticism of something that the NRA isn't doing right and when confronted with the truth, accuses posters of not backing up their claims with facts, something that I have yet to see him do himself. His obsession with the NRA has really become quite amusing.
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2013, 5:18 PM
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LOL, I am probably one of the LEAST "angry and extreme" people on this forum. I have even been called a "troll" for expressing some moderate views here.
I should elaborate because maybe what I said wasn't so obvious.

The antis love to use the word "extremists" when it comes to any gun owner that doesn't agree with anything they say. Same goes for their "reasonable" tactic.

And, yes, you are probably not very angry or extreme. But think of people who try to investigate the gun issue via Google and come across a forum like this and see your post. It could be a bit off putting and reinforce a stereotype they've been spoon fed.

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I never liked these types before this whole mess flared up. But, you go ahead if you think you can make a difference.
But there really isn't any type. And that's my point. There are "types" that have shown up at the NYC and Yonkers gun ranges that I would have *never* figured were gun owners just by looking at them. And the kit they show up with! Talk to these types for a few minutes and marvel at the strange ways they ended up being firearms enthusiasts.

So, normalcy is the name of the game. We're normal guys who have advanced degrees and AR-15's. We're Docs who owns Glocks. Etc, etc.

And the videos shows these gun owners holding a Bernetta MR-1 with a pistol grip and one without and question rhetorically as to why one should be banned over the other.

Or shows a NYC gun owner holding his pistol and asking why is it reasonable for him to only load 7 rounds in his 10 round magazine but he can load 10 in the same gun when he's at the range.
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2013, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pointedstick View Post
I've converted a bunch of mildly anti-gun people. Let me tell you: facts don't come first. You have to start out by being a relateable, non-threatening, non-stereotypical ambassador. In my experience, a common problem is not knowing any (open) gun owners and holding negative stereotypes about us all being coarse fat rednecks. Help them make the mental connection between guns and someone they respect (you). Show them you're an ordinary person, just like them. Don't argue or debate, it's not time yet. Just be comfortable in your own skin.

Encourage others to come out of the "gun closet" if your social circle or workplace is not a majority gun owner environment. Help to normalize gun ownership and gun owners. Once mildly anti-gun people realize that they're surrounded by normal people who own guns, their attitudes will slowly start to change. They'll begin to feel left out of the group whenever the conversation turns to Magpul furniture and semi-wadcutters. They'll want to learn the lingo so they know what you're talking about. They'll become curious. THAT'S when it's time to explain them the difference between semi-auto and full auto firearms.

You don't change someone's mind with facts. For most people, facts only cement an already-held position. To convince, you have to employ more a social or emotional means of persuasion.

Now the hardcore anti-gun people: they're probably hopeless. Don't even try.
Congrats. This! This warms my heart. That people investigating the matter at hand might come across this and see post like this. Or posts from Grey Peterson and Gene. etc. They come across these articulate, high level discussion on the nuances of firearms, law, and logic and they have to pause and think for at least a *bit*.
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  #58  
Old 04-21-2013, 9:57 PM
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As we've seen in this thread there are already a few videos that show the differences. Maybe a fresh video can be a bit cleaner, more to the point, whatever - but it won't make much of a difference.

The challenge isn't in making the video - the tough part is getting people to watch it!

Sure, I'll probably watch it - as will a bunch of other gunnies. Problem is we already know the differences and can sing the 2A chorus with the best of them. We're not the ones who need to see it.

In order to get any traction the video will need something that sets it apart, maybe humor, controversy, an angle that makes people who aren't yet in our choir to search it out and then sit through the whole thing.

It needs to be viral-worthy.

When you have that idea, stop by and we'll get it produced somehow.

BTW - The snippets of various people reading some monologue is not the answer - not even close. But if we could collect $1 for every time someone suggests that cliche we'd have enough to hire a really good team to come up with an idea that might actually have a chance of getting seen.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:53 PM
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As we've seen in this thread there are already a few videos that show the differences. Maybe a fresh video can be a bit cleaner, more to the point, whatever - but it won't make much of a difference.

The challenge isn't in making the video - the tough part is getting people to watch it!

Sure, I'll probably watch it - as will a bunch of other gunnies. Problem is we already know the differences and can sing the 2A chorus with the best of them. We're not the ones who need to see it.

In order to get any traction the video will need something that sets it apart, maybe humor, controversy, an angle that makes people who aren't yet in our choir to search it out and then sit through the whole thing.

It needs to be viral-worthy.

When you have that idea, stop by and we'll get it produced somehow.

BTW - The snippets of various people reading some monologue is not the answer - not even close. But if we could collect $1 for every time someone suggests that cliche we'd have enough to hire a really good team to come up with an idea that might actually have a chance of getting seen.
That's simply your opinion. As they say, everyone has one.

It's not all that easy to get people to watch a video -- that's why someone like the NRA would need to peddle it and it would need to be something like 90-120 seconds long.

It would have to be crafted as carefully as a good commercial. I have never seen a gun video finished to that level. Not ever.

It's amusing to watch some crap all over this idea with nothing more than their own opinions. Such behavior smacks of insecurity and jealousy. The more revved-up and negative the responses, the more insecurity and jealousy. It's nice to see that some have already had the idea at acted on it to some degree.

It's too bad that no one had the vision and resources to create what I actually described...

Perhaps down the road...
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  #60  
Old 04-23-2013, 1:14 AM
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Gee - Yes it's my opinion, one backed by over 20 years in television production, including commercials and more focus groups than I want to think about.

Here's another opinion... Ideas for commercials, movies, and TV shows are a dime a dozen, they're as common as the opinion you're criticizing.

If your idea's that great then back up your opinion and get it produced. Now days it doesn't need a big budget or backing - it needs creativity.

Problem is that for the most part your basic premise is flawed. The full auto vs. semi auto isn't a big issue. The clever anti's know what the difference between the two is - and they don't care. No video will change their minds. And most of the fence sitters don't care either. Push hard enough, educate them to the differences, and they'll simply shift from "Ban all automatic rifles" to "Ban all semi-autos also." Then you can produce another one of your award winning videos pointing out the differences between a semi-auto and bolt action and they'll thank you by clamoring for "Ban all rifles, period."

Your efforts would be better spent getting all of the apathetic gunnies to actually do something productive instead of posting pie in the sky ideas that in their opinion will magically cause everyone to flip to our camp.

But then I'm just insecure and jealous of your vision, so what do I know?
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  #61  
Old 04-23-2013, 1:26 AM
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Gee - Yes it's my opinion, one backed by over 20 years in television production, including commercials and more focus groups than I want to think about.

Here's another opinion... Ideas for commercials, movies, and TV shows are a dime a dozen, they're as common as the opinion you're criticizing.

If your idea's that great then back up your opinion and get it produced. Now days it doesn't need a big budget or backing - it needs creativity.

Problem is that for the most part your basic premise is flawed. The full auto vs. semi auto isn't a big issue. The clever anti's know what the difference between the two is - and they don't care. No video will change their minds. And most of the fence sitters don't care either.

Your efforts would be better spent getting all those apathetic gunnies to actually do something productive instead of posting pie in the sky ideas that in their opinion will cause everyone to flip to our camp.
Actually it's your premise that's wrong. There is more than one "big issue" in this debate.

Each and every time the anti-2A began their tirades they would start with "these assault weapons, these weapons of war..." Quite a hook. It would have done a lot of good to dispel the lie once and for all. It'll happen one day. I'm amazed it already has not.

Please don't try to denigrate my OP with your "substitution scheme." No where did I suggest that there weren't other things that should also be pursued. Have guts to go create your own thread with your own idea AND THEN defend it.

I'm not sure if you're simply envious of the idea or angry because I'm not accepting your personal opinion as if it were fact? Either way the content and tenor of your postings says a great deal.
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:09 AM
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No, it "won't get them banned as well." It will show that people like Feinstein are trying to create a distinction where none exists.
They will call it a loophole that needs to be closed later...
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Old 04-23-2013, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
It was from a California Sheriffs department. I remember that.
The bit you remember about the Mini-14 stock change starts 6 minutes and 4 seconds in. I have captured the link to start from there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x...outu.be&t=6m4s
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:47 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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I am bone-tired of the misapplied and inflammatory label of "assault weapon" and why some guns are banned and others are not despite identical firepower. I am really wondering why the NRA or someone else did not make the following short video.
Because the whole "assault weapon" thing is not about facts, firepower, truth or public safety. Its just a way to demonize some guns to get them off the table as an incremental step. They will come for the Mini-14s and bolt actions eventually too, likely with some other clever scary names, like branding all scoped deer rifles as "high-powered sniper rifles" etc. I mean who needs to shoot a deer at 600yds......isnt that kind of unsporting?
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Old 04-23-2013, 7:53 AM
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Not to thread jack or anything, but I find this comment ridiculous:

Quote:
CALIFORNIA: Love it, leave it or shut the ~!@#$%^&*()_+ up!
What's wrong with wanting to fix some of the problems that keep this state from being as great as it should be?

You seem to be saying that everyone in CA must either enthusiastically follow the liberal herd, or shut up and follow the liberal herd, and any dissenting voices need to leave.

Screw that. I want to make California a great state again, not the failed socialist utopian experiment that it is becoming.
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:18 AM
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This comes pretty close to what you are asking for:


But my opinion is that pretty much illustrates that semi-automatic is just about as devastating as full automatic, and it is not likely to convince anyone inclined to ban weapons (or magazines) to change their mind. (Which doesn't mean that I favor a ban...)

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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
...
One of the classic gun control questions here in LA is why are AR15 pattern rifles illegal while mini-14's are not, given they both have essentially the same firepower?
Unfortunately, some important elements of the anti-gun crowd have already gotten this message, but you won't like their response:



I can't understand why many of California gun owners are still hung up on the "cosmetics" argument! It was valid, back in early December 2012. However, our anti-gun legislators made all of those arguments completely obsolete when they proposed CA SB-374! They are in the process of banning all semi-automatics with magazines. If successful, that will resolve the cosmetics argument nicely (for them).
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M1A, Mini-14, M1 Carbine, Garand? Not banned.

Remove BB or similar device after AW reg? We don't know.
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(5) The department shall adopt regulations for the purpose of implementing this subdivision. These regulations are exempt from the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code). SB 880 | AB 1135
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Old 04-23-2013, 8:21 AM
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Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
Most of the antis simply don't care. The slower firing AR15 is still way too much fire power for the vast majority of them. And most would likely say, "Exactly! We should ban the Mini 14 too!"
^^ and this is not even remotely hypothetical.
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Questions about new laws? Seek answers here first: Assault weapons law? | Ammunition law? | Magazine law?

M1A, Mini-14, M1 Carbine, Garand? Not banned.

Remove BB or similar device after AW reg? We don't know.
Quote:
(5) The department shall adopt regulations for the purpose of implementing this subdivision. These regulations are exempt from the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code). SB 880 | AB 1135
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