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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-20-2013, 3:53 PM
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Default No reading of Miranda rights ~ Obama's master plan

As some of you may remember, not to long ago Obama signed the NDAA order suspending Habeas Corpus.

The National Defense Authorization Act [4] signed by President Obama on the 31st December 2011 authorises the indefinite detention, without trial or indictement, of any US citizens designated as enemies by the executive. The individuals concerned are not only those who have been captured on the field of battle, but also those who have never left the United States or participated in any military action. The law concerns any person designated by the administration as “a member of Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and who takes part in hostile action against the United States”, but also anyone who “substantially supports these organisations”.

With the recent capture of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (Boston bombing "terrorist") this may be Obama's perfect opportunity to test run the NDAA order. By purposefully not reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev his Miranda rights, they are setting this up to be a Federal terrorist case. This is all fine & good, except for the fact that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is an American citizen........

The entire country wants Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, the Feds will have the complete support and backing of the American people. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev will be held under Obama's NDAA order......Only problem now is there will be legal precedent affirming the NDAA order and (at present) no one will care to challenge it.

Not a lawyer ~ But I do see a real slippery slope here!
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Old 04-20-2013, 3:57 PM
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It's not Obamas master plan, he's just a puppet, it's the shadow gov't the UN etc....


It's demonic.



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Old 04-20-2013, 4:02 PM
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You're right, let's see how this plays out because if Obama is successful on bypassing the fourth and fifth amendment, he would be able to bypass all amendments. Now is the time for we the people to observe and see how it plays out and we should also be ready to stand up for the constitution. Don't get me wrong though, if this guy did bomb boston, he should pay for his crimes, but it should happen the way the constitution allows and not just let it slide because we are upset. If the president and his administration can bypass these amendments, he can bypass em all
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Old 04-20-2013, 4:10 PM
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Now is the time for we the people to observe and see how it plays out and we should also be ready to stand up for the constitution. Don't get me wrong though, if this guy did bomb boston, he should pay for his crimes, but it should happen the way the constitution allows and not just let it slide because we are upset. If the president and his administration can bypass these amendments, he can bypass em all
I agree
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Old 04-20-2013, 4:29 PM
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You're right, let's see how this plays out because if Obama is successful on bypassing the fourth and fifth amendment, he would be able to bypass all amendments. Now is the time for we the people to observe and see how it plays out and we should also be ready to stand up for the constitution. Don't get me wrong though, if this guy did bomb boston, he should pay for his crimes, but it should happen the way the constitution allows and not just let it slide because we are upset. If the president and his administration can bypass these amendments, he can bypass em all
I couldn't have stated it any better.
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Old 04-20-2013, 4:42 PM
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Um.

I think some of y'all might not be understanding the whole deal about the so-called "National Security Exception." This does not mean that the guy didn't get read his rights ever. It just means that, given the probable presence of more explosive devices on the guys person, they just postponed it until they could get other business out of the way first and make sure that, y'know, there weren't any immediate explosion hazards.

The black helicopters aren't going to be landing and taking y'all away. Just settle down.
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Old 04-20-2013, 4:47 PM
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Well, we are about to see which is going to happen!
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Old 04-20-2013, 5:02 PM
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Um.

I think some of y'all might not be understanding the whole deal about the so-called "National Security Exception." This does not mean that the guy didn't get read his rights ever. It just means that, given the probable presence of more explosive devices on the guys person, they just postponed it until they could get other business out of the way first and make sure that, y'know, there weren't any immediate explosion hazards.

The black helicopters aren't going to be landing and taking y'all away. Just settle down.
If you really think it is all about pausing to see if he has a firecracker up his *** before reading his rights you are part of the problem.
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Old 04-20-2013, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter.Steele View Post
Um.

I think some of y'all might not be understanding the whole deal about the so-called "National Security Exception." This does not mean that the guy didn't get read his rights ever. It just means that, given the probable presence of more explosive devices on the guys person, they just postponed it until they could get other business out of the way first and make sure that, y'know, there weren't any immediate explosion hazards.

The black helicopters aren't going to be landing and taking y'all away. Just settle down.

Since we have the National Security Exemption, we might as well have the "Because He's Brown Exemption" too, right? Those old fashioned rights are really inconvenient after all.
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Old 04-20-2013, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter.Steele View Post
Um.

I think some of y'all might not be understanding the whole deal about the so-called "National Security Exception." This does not mean that the guy didn't get read his rights ever. It just means that, given the probable presence of more explosive devices on the guys person, they just postponed it until they could get other business out of the way first and make sure that, y'know, there weren't any immediate explosion hazards.
We can certainly trust the government to read him his rights as soon as they are sure there are no unexploded IEDs left by the bombers.


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Originally Posted by jeffrice6 View Post
As some of you may remember, not to long ago Obama signed the NDAA order suspending Habeas Corpus.

The National Defense Authorization Act [4] signed by President Obama on the 31st December 2011 authorises the indefinite detention, without trial or indictement, of any US citizens designated as enemies by the executive. The individuals concerned are not only those who have been captured on the field of battle, but also those who have never left the United States or participated in any military action. The law concerns any person designated by the administration as “a member of Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and who takes part in hostile action against the United States”, but also anyone who “substantially supports these organisations”.
King Obama has for all intents and purposes labeled the NRA and its supporters as enemies. So by this reasoning, all it would take is an executive order to label all NRA members and their supporters as enemies who are taking hostile action against the US. Lets round them up and detain them indefinitely just to be safe. We will check each one out and release those that we determine are not enemies. You can trust us.
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Old 04-20-2013, 6:11 PM
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Am I missing something? What difference does it make if the cop putting cuffs on me reads me my rights? As soon as I am not free to go about my business I figure I am under arrest and will act accordingly.
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Old 04-20-2013, 6:42 PM
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@Scarville, if the officer forgets to read you your rights, the judge can't convict you. They are mandated to read you your rights, but because Obama signed the NDAA bill, the 4th amendment and the fifth amendment kind of go out the window. The NDAA was ruled unconstitutional, but right away after the judge made that ruling, Obama had another federal judge over turn that ruling right away. This NDAA bill is something I've been following a lot because of how crazy and unconstitutional it is. Not to go off topic, but have you guys heard of the anti-protest bill which violates the first amendment and makes it a felony for people to protest where secret service are present? All these violations against the constitution is what worries me about this gun control issue lately
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Old 04-20-2013, 6:44 PM
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Even though this guy is scum. He is still an American citizen and has rights. He should be read his rights. If we start to suspend one for any purpose you might as well take them all away.

On that note the NDAA and the Patriot Act need to be repealed.
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Old 04-20-2013, 6:47 PM
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I think I'm missing something.

If they don't Mirandize the guy they may not be able to utilize the gathered information against him at trial.

So they don't Mirandize the guy. Big whoop.

We've essentially got the guy on video planting the bomb. We've got him on video committing armed robbery. We've a carjack victim who was told he committed the bombing. We've likely got a ton of physical evidence from the carjacking, the bomb assembly location, his dorm, etc. We've got the testimony of a ton of officers at whom he shot. They've got testimony from the cops he tried to run over.

Oh, and don't forget that he murdered his own brother (or at a minimum assaulted him with a deadly weapon). Plenty of cops to testify to that one. . .

We don't need any further court-admissible evidence in order to put this creep in prison for the rest of his life (or maybe to seek the death penalty).

So I heartily approve of the idea of interrogating him rather than getting him Mirandized and having his lawyer continually telling him to shut up. I want to know what he knows a lot more than I want a few more charges to be filed.

But maybe I misunderstand the issue?
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Old 04-20-2013, 6:51 PM
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And here I was thinking I was alone in having reservations about this whole thing. I don't think it would be too difficult spending thirty seconds to read the guy his rights. He probably knows them anyway. This is indeed a slippery slope, which when taken in context of all the other things that have been happening seems really suspicious. I do not like where this appears to be heading, and would not be surprised to find myself on the wrong end of it one of these days, though of course I hope not.
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:05 PM
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Even though this guy is scum. He is still an American citizen and has rights. He should be read his rights. If we start to suspend one for any purpose you might as well take them all away.

On that note the NDAA and the Patriot Act need to be repealed.
These guys were not American citizens. Their parents brought them when they were given asylum. They have legal residency. The parents ended up returning to Russia and leaving the boys here,

Agree about the Patriot Act and NDAA.....Treasonous!
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:08 PM
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You don't need to read miranda unless you want to admit the guys statements into evidence. How much evidence do you think you would need to get a conviction of someone who you watched running down the road, shooting at police officers?
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:13 PM
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If he goes the the way of military tribunal rather than federal court, then we know for a fact what future intentions are. This will be interesting.
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:39 PM
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what if he is Unconscious? how do you Mirandize the guy,they said he was in bad shape,bleeding out.
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:43 PM
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It is already being challenged in that they are trying to make him a terrorist and then the lawyer willl step in. Only have 48 hrs after capture and then he must be read his rights. Supposedly he incapacitated, and time marches forward.

It will be a criminal trail in Federal court, same as McVey.
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:50 PM
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These guys were not American citizens. Their parents brought them when they were given asylum. They have legal residency. The parents ended up returning to Russia and leaving the boys here,

Agree about the Patriot Act and NDAA.....Treasonous!
The younger (captured) one has US citizenship. The older one did not - and should have been deported when he was convicted for assault.

The thing that I've been hearing and with which I've got issues is the idea of declaring them enemy combatants. I think that might be a bridge too far based on what I know so far.
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Old 04-20-2013, 7:54 PM
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These guys were not American citizens. Their parents brought them when they were given asylum. They have legal residency. The parents ended up returning to Russia and leaving the boys here,

Agree about the Patriot Act and NDAA.....Treasonous!
The one that is still alive is a naturalized citizen.

From: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ure/?hpt=hp_c2

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The brothers were immigrants to the U.S. from the Russian Caucasus, an area that includes Chechnya and Dagestan. Tsarnaev was born in Kyrgystan, came to the United States in 2002, and became a citizen on September 11, 2012. His older brother was not a U.S. citizen but was in the country legally.
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:00 PM
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So the underwear bomber is read his rights, shuts down and everyone jumps on Berries rear because "intelligence was lost". We still don't know exactly what we are dealing with in regards to these two idiots. So this one is not read his rights, can't be questioned anyways because he's f'd up (allegedly), and everyone jumps on Berries rear because "civil rights".

I do not like the regime but credit where it is do, this was a good choice. He's a terrorist, an islamic terrorist, f him.
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:07 PM
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I don't think every one under stands what having you Miranda rights really means....
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:25 PM
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Wow, I'm sadden to see so many people are applauding the death of the Constitution.

Do anyone of you that are so quick to jump on "f him his a terrorist" bandwagon understand that once they can do this to one person, they can do it to anyone if they just label them a terrorist?
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:39 PM
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I saw that on the news last night and was appalled that a citizen could be deprived of his right to a lawyer for 48 hours.
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:55 PM
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There is no deprivation of rights taking place. People need to stop watching Law & Order and start reading case law.

Read the history of Miranda, read when Miranda is applied, y'all will be surprised.

And again, he's a terrorist f him.
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Old 04-20-2013, 8:58 PM
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test run the NDAA order? this might be the first truly public use, but its doubtful that this would be the first use of the NDAA
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:07 PM
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Miranda isn't read to you until somebody starts asking you questions regarding the crime you've been arrested for. You can be arrested, brought to the police station, booked and placed in a cell and be there for a day or two (or three or four if it's a weekend) without anyone reading Miranda to you. Remember that ticket you got that went warrant? If you get arrested for the warrant, you'll never have your Miranda rights read to you by the cops.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:08 PM
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So far as I can tell, he is not being deprived of any rights.

Until he is Mirandized, everything that he says and any evidence to which he points will likely be inadmissible in court.

They don't get to torture him. They don't get to withhold food, medical treatment, etc. He's in a bloody hospital and that means that they are actually sharing control with medical personnel - and likely will have to do so for days to weeks (maybe months).

If someone can explain just what rights are being denied the creep, I'd really like to know. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on this stuff - and so far as I can tell it is the prosecutor who is being hurt by the lack of Mirandizing, not the perp.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayoneone View Post
There is no deprivation of rights taking place. People need to stop watching Law & Order and start reading case law.

Read the history of Miranda, read when Miranda is applied, y'all will be surprised.

And again, he's a terrorist f him.
I think you're getting hung up on Miranda. The point is they're going out of their way not to treat him like a citizen but a "terrorist" The OP is suggesting that this may be part of the plan to publicly USE NDAA and create case law while %100 of the country is behind F'ing that terrorist!
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:18 PM
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Wow, I'm sadden to see so many people are applauding the death of the Constitution.

Do anyone of you that are so quick to jump on "f him his a terrorist" bandwagon understand that once they can do this to one person, they can do it to anyone if they just label them a terrorist?
Not reading something to a fkng terrorist that didn't become law for almost 200 years after the Constitution was written is now the death of that same Constitution?
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:31 PM
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It's not Obamas master plan, he's just a puppet, it's the shadow gov't the UN etc....


It's demonic.



sailor
YUP big +1 on this one
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:40 PM
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I think you're getting hung up on Miranda. The point is they're going out of their way not to treat him like a citizen but a "terrorist" The OP is suggesting that this may be part of the plan to publicly USE NDAA and create case law while %100 of the country is behind F'ing that terrorist!
Not hung up on it at all. I'm quite versed in its use. Again there is no deprivation of rights. People here are getting hung up on a perceived conspiracy to deprive a terrorist of rights he is not being deprived of.

Again, study the history of Miranda and when it applies.

The sad part is people are so concerned about a d bag that destroyed 180 lives. He's being treated very well by all accounts.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:40 PM
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I don't think every one under stands what having you Miranda rights really means....
^ This. Some of the statements here show a complete lack of understanding as to what falls under the Miranda ruling. Arrest does not automatically equal Miranda. People can be arrested, tried and convicted without ever being read their Miranda rights and without any of their constitutional rights being violated.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:44 PM
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Wow, I'm sadden to see so many people are applauding the death of the Constitution.

Do anyone of you that are so quick to jump on "f him his a terrorist" bandwagon understand that once they can do this to one person, they can do it to anyone if they just label them a terrorist?
What you are seeing is a replay of the same knee jerk reactions that happened right after 911. All of the warnings concerning the consequences of the Patriot Act fell on deaf ears back then because people just wanted something, anything done. Even worse anyone not willing to blindly tow the "patriotic ends justifies the means" line was labeled anti-american and a terrorist sympathizer. 12 years later and look at how far off the Constitution the government has strayed by using the "terrorist" excuse.

Statists with a gun hobby is an accurate description for many gun owners.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:44 PM
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Obamas master plan? Do you think he made this law? Lol and the hits keep coming.
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  #38  
Old 04-20-2013, 9:47 PM
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mjmagee67 mjmagee67 is offline
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Miranda only matters if the suspect is interviewed/interrogated. If no one ask him any questions then there is no need for Miranda.
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Old 04-20-2013, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Loco45 View Post
@Scarville, if the officer forgets to read you your rights, the judge can't convict you. They are mandated to read you your rights, but because Obama signed the NDAA bill, the 4th amendment and the fifth amendment kind of go out the window. The NDAA was ruled unconstitutional, but right away after the judge made that ruling, Obama had another federal judge over turn that ruling right away. This NDAA bill is something I've been following a lot because of how crazy and unconstitutional it is. Not to go off topic, but have you guys heard of the anti-protest bill which violates the first amendment and makes it a felony for people to protest where secret service are present? All these violations against the constitution is what worries me about this gun control issue lately
Wrong, Miranda is not required upon arrest. You've been watching too much TV. Miranda is only required during questioning in a custodial situation. NDAA has nothing to do with this.

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Originally Posted by Liberty Belle View Post
These guys were not American citizens. Their parents brought them when they were given asylum. They have legal residency. The parents ended up returning to Russia and leaving the boys here,

Agree about the Patriot Act and NDAA.....Treasonous!
The younger one is a naturalized citizen.

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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
I saw that on the news last night and was appalled that a citizen could be deprived of his right to a lawyer for 48 hours.
Um, you don't get a lawyer immediately upon arrest. You are entitled to have one present during questioning IF you request one. He has to be the one to make the request. A relative or your lawyer can not invoke your right for you.

Also, if he is medically unable to attend court, the 48 hour arraignment clock gets put on hold until he is medically able. When working the courts, I dealt with this almost every day with inmates who were classified as a "No-Go Medical" for court purposes. All it requires is a doctor's certification that transporting him to court would be a detriment to his health because of medical reasons. By most accounts, this guy was in pretty bad shape when they got to him, so it would not surprise me if he doesn't got to court for a few days to a week or two. Gives the prosecution more time to prepare their case anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
Miranda isn't read to you until somebody starts asking you questions regarding the crime you've been arrested for. You can be arrested, brought to the police station, booked and placed in a cell and be there for a day or two (or three or four if it's a weekend) without anyone reading Miranda to you. Remember that ticket you got that went warrant? If you get arrested for the warrant, you'll never have your Miranda rights read to you by the cops.
Yep. I made thousands of arrests where I never read Miranda to the suspect, because I had no need to question him.

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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
^ This. Some of the statements here show a complete lack of understanding as to what falls under the Miranda ruling. Arrest does not automatically equal Miranda. People can be arrested, tried and convicted without ever being read their Miranda rights and without any of their constitutional rights being violated.
Yep. I always wince when I see someone on TV read the crook his Miranda rights while their still struggling to get him handcuffed.
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  #40  
Old 04-20-2013, 10:07 PM
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Thanks for the facts guys. It's nice to see some in this thread.
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