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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:25 PM
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Default Hassled at Burro Canyon about AWs

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  #2  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:29 PM
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Why did you stow the weapon? If you are legal you have nothing to hide.
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:29 PM
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Sell your rifle.
If youre worried about getting in trouble, youll never have fun with it.
Either that or know you are right and why and dont be afraid to tell everyone.
If you get arrested for it, at least youll have a story to tell!
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  #4  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:31 PM
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Boys, those are easy answers when the consequences don't personally affect you. I think he did just fine. Sounds like the sheriffs were on a fishing expedition. Why throw chum in the water and attract sharks.
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FortCourageArmory View Post
Boys, those are easy answers when the consequences don't personally affect you. I think he did just fine.
I agree. If someone doesn't feel comfortable explaining the legalities of a CA legal OLL they shouldn't have to.

I will say to the Sheriff's defense, driving past someone who has a AW looking rifle and then having them go hide it imediately in there car can be suspicious looking. They might already know about OLL's and figured he had a illegal setup and thats why it was stowed away. Hence the grilling.
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Old 10-29-2007, 1:51 PM
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What if it were someone shooting legally registered AW's? Was it worth the drive up there just because they got a "tip"?

I think they need more to do.

The fact is, it is still somewhat early in the CA OLL movement. In time, more Leo's will know about them and we will here less about this kind of activity. But until then, it could happen to any of us. We know that they are legal and we can explain all we want to them, but if they have any doubts, they can arrest you and let the DA's figure it out. Look at what happened to Corwin.

I think the OP handled it just fine. I say shoot with confidence and know the law saw when you are approached, you can confidently explain yourself. We shouldn't hide away and not shoot them. The more we shoot them, the more people that don't know about them see them and the more OLL's that will sell because more will want them. BRD will continue to spread.
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:57 PM
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This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies' names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to by putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2007, 1:58 PM
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What is going on at Burro? Usually rent a private range there with no hassle.

I agree with Liberty1, an educational package from TMLLP is a great idea. I'll chip in to the cost of having them type one up.
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2007, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty1 View Post
This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies Names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to thus putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.
This is actually a really good idea and an excelent way to respond to "looks like an AW" incidets.
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2007, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty1 View Post
This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies Names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to thus putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.
They might not of received a call. Enchantor stated, the deputies originally drove by the area on their way to another range.

It is very possible someone at the range sparked the deputies interest in enchantors gathering. The deputies, then elected to be pro-active and inspect the area.

If you don't have their names, just try to log the correct time, as GPS will show who was there if they look into it. I think Liberty has a good idea.

Although if they didn't actually see your OLL and were simply doing a pro-active check for illegal arms, you may completely surprise them with the paper work. Just the same though, I say call and send the package. Just tell them you noticed deputies checking for AWs and you wanted to be sure they were aware of OLL's not being AW's.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2007, 3:08 PM
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come on this is burro we are talking about.
there are usually at least 4 or 5 OLL rilfes / registered AW on the public lanes all the time, 3 round burst. That bridge area is like LEO reserved parking lot.
This whoever Sheriff has no excuse to be ignorant and rude.

Last edited by hoozaru; 10-29-2007 at 3:14 PM..
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2007, 3:15 PM
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I think they should make a law that informs the shooters at the range that the sheriff's department is going to be checking for illegal firearms on certain dates. They inform drunk drivers where the dui checkpoint are at, they should inform us. It's not that i have any illegal firearms I just wouldn't want to go through the hassle.
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2007, 3:21 PM
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This is unacceptable. Looks alone can not dictate whether a firearm is an illegal AW. A cursory glance certainly isn't going show whether a gun is a registered or unregistered AW. I would have at the very least made a note of their names and badge numbers and get a clarification as to what led to them even coming over to ask questions.

I try to be law-abiding and cooperative, but I don't like being treated like a lawbreaker (whether intentionally or through ignorance) and I don't think any other law-abiding citizen should either.
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2007, 3:44 PM
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No LEO worth anything is going to affect a felony arrest of an armed suspect alone. This story sounds completely bogus.
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  #15  
Old 10-29-2007, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
No LEO worth anything is going to affect a felony arrest of an armed suspect alone. This story sounds completely bogus.
Reread the original post.
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  #16  
Old 10-29-2007, 4:19 PM
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Well, there was 2 officers in the vehicle. They conducted the interview from within their SUV. They didn't get out and investigate or anything. For all I know they may have been completely fine with my OLL, but seeing as I know of at least a couple people that found themselves in jail after an incident like this, I wasn't about to present to them my OLL after they asked if I had any assault rifles, that would be like handing someone a lolly pop after they asked for a candy bar; they're not the same. I was just curious how you guys would have reacted. I don't have the time or money to deal with being wrongfully arrested. I'm just sick of being looked at like a criminal just because I want to lawfully enjoy my 2nd amendment rights.
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Old 10-29-2007, 4:20 PM
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This post gets me thinking, what are some of the documents or paperwork you could show the LEO to convince them your target rifle is not a AW?
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  #18  
Old 10-29-2007, 4:23 PM
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Old 10-29-2007, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enchanter View Post
There should be some signed educational material of some sort we should be able to present to an officer in a situation like this. Something from a reputable source LEOs would trust and believe. I think that would help if at all possible. By the way to clear things up, I was perfectly happy with the cops being on their way, I didn't really feel like trying to get their names or anything. I was just happy to be left alone again.

You did good. The best way for law abiding shooters to feel at ease around LEO's would be for the DOJ to officially tell the LEO's that OLL are legal! That hasn't happened yet for some reason.

I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain the law about OLL to a LEO. The LEO would say "tell it to the judge". Major PITA.
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  #20  
Old 10-29-2007, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post
This is unacceptable. Looks alone can not dictate whether a firearm is an illegal AW.
Of course they can, that's how the entire law was written: looks.

Where have you been?
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  #21  
Old 10-29-2007, 5:49 PM
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I was just wondering, where is Burro Canyon?

After you put your OLL away, what firearms did you still have out?

I wonder what they would have done if you would have showed them your OLL.
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  #22  
Old 10-29-2007, 6:26 PM
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It wouldn't suprise me that someone who was there and didn't know what an OLL was probably called it in. Hasn't happened to my in Silicon Valley, but I wouldn't be suprised if it did.
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2007, 6:58 PM
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I believe Bwiese made a Memo on OLL AR/AK last year, not sure what the link is. Just made a paper copy of that, and highlighted some keypoints, in case I run into some ignorant rookie cop.
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Old 10-29-2007, 7:13 PM
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I was there with enchantor and think we handled the situation just fine....The cops acted like lifeless robots though....Sounds like they memorized the lines of BS they fed our ears....Ill bet they went around to everyone saying the same lines trying to get people to self incriminate...
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Old 10-29-2007, 7:24 PM
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another thing, calgunner shooting OLL in burro on sundays, and I wasn't invited!!!!
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  #26  
Old 10-29-2007, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
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I was there with enchantor and think we handled the situation just fine....The cops acted like lifeless robots though....Sounds like they memorized the lines of BS they fed our ears....Ill bet they went around to everyone saying the same lines trying to get people to self incriminate...
LEOBOTS ?
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  #27  
Old 10-29-2007, 8:41 PM
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Some of us have red on one side and blue on the other!

Carry this flyer: http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaRifles.pdf

Quote:
There should be some signed educational material of some sort we should be able to present to an officer in a situation like this. Something from a reputable source LEOs would trust and believe.
What do you want? DOJ to follow their mandate?
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Last edited by Liberty1; 10-29-2007 at 8:45 PM..
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Old 10-29-2007, 8:52 PM
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I saw the OLL flyer and was wondering if it should be updated to include the U15 stock or is that so obvious that it shouldn't be a problem?
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  #29  
Old 10-29-2007, 9:11 PM
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If the Deputies knew about OLLs and then made an issue of it they are at fault but we don't know that. We do know the DOJ is intentionally withholding this from the local LEOs however.
At this point this looks like yet another example of DOJ hassle through omission by remote control.
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  #30  
Old 10-29-2007, 9:12 PM
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well given the fact that this is the SAME law enforcement agency that arrested Matt Corwin, I am definitely more wary in LA county. I used to just break down my whole OLL rifle when I drove up to Burro just in case I am pulled over (of all the traffic tickets ALL of them were in LA county even though I mainly live in SD). Funny thing is when I go up to Burro, there seems to be no shortage of OLL with some sort of mag-lock. One time I went up, there was a guy who had three OLL's himself and he helped me put back together one of my OLL. Nice guy, I should've asked if he is a Calgunner too.
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  #31  
Old 10-29-2007, 10:15 PM
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You can probably rack this up to the fact that there are lots of people who go up to burro with illegally configured rifles. Almost every time I go up there I meet people (usually young mexican thug types or asian kids) with OLL rifles with no maglocks and 30 round mags. If they (sheriff) weren't actually arresting somebody every now and then I don't see why they would bother harassing people on the rifle range.

Yea, Yea I know people are gonna say "they could be reg'd AW". But I am sure this is not the case, seeing how many of them are young, have stag/doublestar/mega, etc lowers that did not exist pre-2000 (I'm not 100% sure about this). And the fact that many of them will openly admit to you that they are offlist and "nobody at burro cares".
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:35 PM
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here is what i did. i printed the entire DOJ cailfornia gun laws and carry them around with me when i shoot. then when leo's give you crap then you politely ask them to state the law you are breaking. if he is lying then you take out the 40 or so pages and ask him to look it up.
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:55 PM
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you did well. i'm actually kinda upset that you got harassed like that. BCR has for many years been a kind of refuge for me from the regular world. I believe in being legal - but we shouldn't be subjected to demands that we attest as such.
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Old 10-30-2007, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
If someone doesn't feel comfortable explaining the legalities of a CA legal OLL they shouldn't own them.
I fixed it for you.
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2007, 4:46 PM
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One thing I would consider for the monsterman types, is that I like to bring another obvious rifle with me usually, which is the M1A. If ever queried on the legality of OLL the example of the well known legal M1A is right in their face, a semi-auto, magazine fed, non pistol gripped rifle with a compensator on it. Standing next to each other, it's pretty obvious the legality of a non-listed AR-15.

It is just that the DOJ is not doing enough to educate LE on the off-list issue, even though we pay their wages and bills.

Last edited by odysseus; 10-31-2007 at 10:57 AM.. Reason: clarificationz
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  #36  
Old 10-30-2007, 7:32 PM
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I don't have to worry about my OLL AK since I have my own range at my house and never go to public ranges. The only time I shot at a public range was when I rented a Glock 17 at The Range in Grass Valley.
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  #37  
Old 10-30-2007, 7:48 PM
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I've Been There, Done That long before and then again after the OLL phonomena.

I was hassled by SO for my Barrett M82-A1CAL, a perfectly legal long-rifle that happens to look way scary. After 20min of careful dialouge, and a few calls back to his seargent, plus a quick "Just stop and think for a second. If I have the kind of money to drop $10k on a TOY, do you really think I'd be foolish enough not to vet said toy's legality with my very very good attorney? Now just how stupid do you think I am?"
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  #38  
Old 10-30-2007, 9:22 PM
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Last time I went up to Burro, both my cousin and I had at least 10 OLL rifles between us that we took out to zero in, test fire etc.

The guy right next to us was a Sheriff (off duty) shooting his 2 AR OLL's and his registered AR15 AW..

Once I whipped out one of my FAL rifles, he was all over us wanting to shoot her (which I let him) and he was all giddy and happy to shoot a FAL. I told him how to obtain one or have one built (California Compliant, and Off List), and he thanked us and went home soon after.

I think you ran into some over zealous Sheriff Deputies who were on the hunt for something or someone, or maybe they were working on what they thought was a legitimate tip?

Bottom line is if you are unsure or insecure about having an Off List AR or OLL Rifle, and you cannot truly explain the law or explain how a OLL rifle is legal, then don't go out to the range until you have a firm understanding of how to explain the Off List Rifle, Magazine Locks or Monster man Grips and how you have a California Compliant Rifle etc.

LEO's are really good guys. You can't blame them for being suspicious, that is a part of their job to be suspicious and on guard, looking for something wrong...

LEO's do need help to be brought up to speed on everything that is going on.

I used to live right down the road from Burro (15 minutes) and I was up there allot. Also, Gunrunners in Duarte down the mountain from Burro, and carries a whole bunch of OLL AR Lowers, rifles and OLL Ak rifles etc. and the Sheriffs are in there all the time... AT least 3-4 times per week, buying stuff, asking questions, talking to the folks that work there.

Its all about having fun, but at the same time you have to do your due diligence to be legal, safe and Compliant, so you don't run into any trouble.

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  #39  
Old 10-31-2007, 9:24 AM
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believe me I know how to explain to the officers about the oll situation.....

I'm guessing you never heard of my ugly christmas sweater party incident
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Old 10-31-2007, 1:47 PM
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ibanezfoo ibanezfoo is offline
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Maybe the cops just wanted tips on how to get some of those rifles for themselves....? Maybe they thought you were being jerks for not hooking them up.

-Bryan
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