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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 03-30-2013, 7:45 PM
SISIG SISIG is offline
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Default Training Class or Competition

To all seasoned been there done that guys, what is your progression do you just keep taking classes in multi level e.g.. novice to advance or do you start competing in IDPA/USPSA, Glock Sport etc.

I read somewhere that cost associated with competing is quite high. It dwarfs your handgun cost considering ammo,fees,time & travel and misc. expense.

On other note just take classes/courses to get better. What your take?
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Old 03-30-2013, 8:10 PM
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Classes will not put the stress on you that exists in competition. Running in competition under a timer with the focus on performing as well as possible will introduce stress, tunnel vision, and reduction of fine motor skills in a consistent and regular manner. These are common responses to high-stress situations, and responses to which you should have exposure.

On the other hand, competition does NOT teach or reinforce proper defensive and tactical skills. Quite the contrary...competition rewards actions that would be exceptionally detrimental in a real fight.

The single biggest benefit from competition is that it hones your weapon-handling mechanics. Drawing, sight acquisition, trigger press under stress, target transitions, reloads, malfunction recovery...all vital skills that become second nature when you compete regularly. Being able to do these without conscious thought is an invaluable skill. But it is just important that if you carry a weapon for defense or part of your job, you need to balance competition with proper tactical training.
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Old 03-30-2013, 8:17 PM
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I enjoy both.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:18 PM
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They each have their place. Think of classes as learning technique and competition as testing your ability to apply the techniques you've learned.

Classes are like trying to learn to drive a race car by just reading a book...it only takes you so far. Racing without learning technique is like thrashing around making crashing until you learn enough to get out of the way of other drivers.

My experience has taught me that a good foundation in skills/technique is needed before starting competition, but once you've started competiting, you'll exposed weaknesses which can only be addressed with more instruction
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:44 PM
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shoot USPSA: gun handling and marksmanship under stress

play paintball: use of cover, cutting off angles, snap shooting

watch Magpul videos: whatever they teach you in a class

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Old 03-31-2013, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SISIG View Post

I read somewhere that cost associated with competing is quite high. It dwarfs your handgun cost considering ammo,fees,time & travel and misc. expense.
If you have no competition or training experience, I would start with a training class, then go into competition. The expense is there either way, gun, holster, belt, extra mags, mag pouches, electric ears, ammo, gas, food...(don't cheap out on equipment) and good gear pretty much lasts forever. So a training class might burn 600 rounds in one day, and a competition match will burn 200 rounds per USPSA match. If you start with a Glock 17 and 5 mags, your total gear outlay will be about $1,000 (pre-panic prices). If you get into competition, you will start reloading anyway. Training costs are far higher than match costs, but you don't typically take a training class every weekend.

It's still far cheaper than golf, and a damn sight better use of the land.
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Old 03-31-2013, 8:08 AM
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If you are new to shooting or haven't worked on anything but an indoor/static square range, take a class. In a basic/level 1, you'll learn/practice how to shoot faster than 1round/second accurately, work from a holster, reload, maybe move and shoot. You'll need to do those things safely in competition. Once you have an intro to that, USPSA/IDPA is a nice way to regularly practice running your gun.

Then depending on your goals, maybe another class when you hit a plateau or want to pick up a new skill/tactic. That direction will dictate what kind of class you should be looking at i.e. competition or 'tactical'.

As for cost, a Satruday USPSA match will take about 1/2 day and run me about $30 match fees, $8 in gas, $5 for a few tacos after and 150-200 rounds of ammo. In my area, I can do that just about every weekend if my scheduled allowed.

The costs vary a bit for a training class, on average...$200/day and 400-600 rounds. Gas and food depend on where the class is but I stick to commute distance classes.
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Old 03-31-2013, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
They each have their place. Think of classes as learning technique and competition as testing your ability to apply the techniques you've learned.

Classes are like trying to learn to drive a race car by just reading a book...it only takes you so far. Racing without learning technique is like thrashing around making crashing until you learn enough to get out of the way of other drivers.

My experience has taught me that a good foundation in skills/technique is needed before starting competition, but once you've started competiting, you'll exposed weaknesses which can only be addressed with more instruction
well said

a good tactical class will teach you the basic HG skills including shoot an scoot very important in match PLAY, just keep in mind competition is a game
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Old 03-31-2013, 8:59 AM
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Part of it also comes to what you want to get out of the competition. Up to this point, I am resisting the option of building or buying competition specific equipment. I am never going to have the time to dedicate to be a top tier competitor. I use competition as a fun way to get more trigger time other than shooting at a static target. It also gives me a chance to make good friends, etc.

There's nothing wrong with going full tilt into competition and buying competition specific gear. My goal is to get better using the firearms I own and would most likely use in any scenario.
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Old 03-31-2013, 9:21 AM
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OP:
It depends on your level of training/experience.
My personal observation is this: I see newbie competitors grossly under skilled in basic gun handling, safety and overall awareness of the fact they are running around with REAL guns and bullets.
Taking more than a few classes from a an outfit that has experience in both realms will help burn the concepts of safety and gun handling into you brain.
Those two things are a must, the rest can be worked on and improved along the
way.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intimid8tor View Post
I am resisting the option of building or buying competition specific equipment.
The fix is to compete with the same guns you carry....
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofatactical View Post
OP:
I see newbie competitors grossly under skilled in basic gun handling, safety and overall awareness of the fact they are running around with REAL guns and bullets.
Yea, that's why I tell them don't point your gun at me. It takes a week off my life, and pretty much wrecks their day (nothing personal)
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:13 AM
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I bought a cz75sp-01 because I wanted to get into comp shooting.
I shoot at USI in concord.
Anyone willing to take me under their wing and show me the ropes?
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
If you have no competition or training experience, I would start with a training class, then go into competition. The expense is there either way, gun, holster, belt, extra mags, mag pouches, electric ears, ammo, gas, food...(don't cheap out on equipment) and good gear pretty much lasts forever. So a training class might burn 600 rounds in one day, and a competition match will burn 200 rounds per USPSA match. If you start with a Glock 17 and 5 mags, your total gear outlay will be about $1,000 (pre-panic prices). If you get into competition, you will start reloading anyway. Training costs are far higher than match costs, but you don't typically take a training class every weekend.

It's still far cheaper than golf, and a damn sight better use of the land.
I have been doing this the last few months got my gear, saving ammo,posting some question here, then attended my first class last month and this July a full weekend of class/training.

I have slowly educating myself about reloading and getting supply one at a time.

After some classes in July I should at least be ready to take my first orientation of my chapter Action Pistol then I can shoot a match, that is how they required us, at least I wont be unsafe and embarrass myself.

I know when I took on this sport that I would at least go beyond static shooting. I got some stock pistol and plan on using this not interested in Race gun at all my goal is to at least be good/ very good with what I have. You all have provided insight into this sport that will be safe and enjoyable for years to come.

The stress of competition will expose and sharpen any skills I have learn and will continue to fine tune as I get better, that is why I'm not rushing to join any action pistol until I think my FUNDAMENTALS are solid, have been working diligently on my fundamentals and shot process and I have gotten a FEW aha! moment.

Any advice please keep it coming.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:22 AM
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in Richmond, I'd highly recommend the intro to IPSC class. Someone from RRGC can confirm.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:00 PM
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Both. Start by taking a class and getting a good foundation. Talk to guys at your local range and it is real easy to find shooters who will be happy to help you get into competition.
Enjoy the ride.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:00 PM
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After your training course(s) compete. Before competing however, know the rules of each shooting game you choose.
What's okay in USPSA is not okay in IDPA. personally if you want to shoot a game that prepares you somewhat for real world start with IDPA. You'll compete against others with simular equipment and skill level...not against the Masters or Pros. Same can be said about USPSA, but I think you'll feel more comfortable with folks shooting guns and having equipment like yours.
Shooting after a Master or Grandmaster with an Open Class gun in a stage can be pretty intimidating and trying to shoot as fast as they do is an invitation to failure.
Training is a journey not a destination. Learn from as many sources as you can. Weed out what works for you and disregard what doesn't. The more "trigger time" the better.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:37 PM
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You are on your way to a lifetime endeavor sir!

Study up and research the history of IPSC, (USPSA in the USA) who started it, why it became to light. I agree, it has changed over the years, but you are an individual, any information is good, you will take what is useful. To me, it's the brainchild of defensive shooting.

Think acquiring skills from anyone and use it to your needs. I've shared that Shooting is like fighting/martial art. You train and practice and you compete to apply your skills. USPSA/IDPA is the closest thing to "sparring" we honest law abiding American have.

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Old 03-31-2013, 12:39 PM
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Alot of people start in IDPA due to it's overall slower tempo (which is great for starting out)
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Old 03-31-2013, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric View Post
I bought a cz75sp-01 because I wanted to get into comp shooting.
I shoot at USI in concord.
Anyone willing to take me under their wing and show me the ropes?
Either Chabot or Richmond runs regular USPSA matches
both also runs some handgun classes.

if you are looking for more classes, both San Jose and Sac provide many options.
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Old 03-31-2013, 6:07 PM
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I will be attending Diablo Action Pistol orientation, anybody here have done it?
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:32 PM
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When is it bud?
I'll go with ya.
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Old 04-01-2013, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SISIG View Post
I will be attending Diablo Action Pistol orientation, anybody here have done it?
I am taking their class on the 6th.
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Old 04-01-2013, 7:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo357 View Post
Both. Start by taking a class and getting a good foundation. Talk to guys at your local range and it is real easy to find shooters who will be happy to help you get into competition.
Enjoy the ride.
Big +1. I use classes to work on fundamentals, and USPSA/IPSC a few times a year to put them in practice while moving and such. Winter=Bullseye for me, which really hammers in the fundamentals of marksmanship as well.

So my pattern is:
Winter: Indoor Bullseye (.22)
Spring: A class or two
Late Spring - Fall: Competition

Of course, a friend started running Ruger matches at his range recently, so those are getting thrown in as some cheap fun, but getting more expensive as we try out each other's .22's and find something new we don't have (GSG 1911 .22 is next on my list after cleaning up a round with a borrowed one yesterday!)
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
in Richmond, I'd highly recommend the intro to IPSC class. Someone from RRGC can confirm.
Third Saturday of every month.

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Attention New Shooters: The Richmond Safe Handgun Competitor classes are offered at Richmond. New shooters will now be required to attend one of these classes to be able to shoot any of the matches. Classes will be held on the 3rd Saturday of the month. Due to the overwhelming demand for these classes, we are now requesting a non-refundable pre-payment of $25 to hold a slot for the class.
http://www.richmondhotshots.com/intro_to_ipsc.html

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Originally Posted by MossbergMan View Post
After your training course(s) compete. Before competing however, know the rules of each shooting game you choose.
Agreed, but remember that you don't have to be an expert on the rules before you start competing. If you make a procedural error, it only hurts your score. Nobody gets angry at you. You just want to make sure that you are instinctively safe before you compete (muzzle awareness, trigger finger discipline, etc.). Safety violations are what will really ruin your day, so want to be as ready as possible in that area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofatactical View Post
Alot of people start in IDPA due to it's overall slower tempo (which is great for starting out)
I agree. Stages are limited to fewer total max. rounds (18), and less movement (no more than 15 yards). But IDPA is an interesting sport even after you become a more-experienced competitor. It just has a different vibe than USPSA.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln45 View Post
well said

a good tactical class will teach you the basic HG skills including shoot an scoot very important in match PLAY, just keep in mind competition is a game
it hasnt helped you yet!

prepare to get spanked agian this coming Sunday!
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Old 04-02-2013, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SISIG View Post
I will be attending Diablo Action Pistol orientation, anybody here have done it?
I took the March class. An hour or so in class then live fire shooting drills. You will get your USI action pistol card after your first match. It is important not to DQ on your first match or else you have to retake the class all over.
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Old 04-02-2013, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
in Richmond, I'd highly recommend the intro to IPSC class. Someone from RRGC can confirm.
It's a great introduction into competition and you need to take it to shoot at Richmond unless you are already an experienced competition shooter.

However, it is an orientation to shooting on the action range and an intro to competition not a training class.

Now if you are considering costs, I may have to bring up Highlander51's 'clever' comment from SISIG's other thread. Training or Competition will be costly. Proficiency with firearms will be costly. I'm not quite sure what the comparison is here. Ideally and realistically you should do both to be proficient.

If you are short on cash, I actually think competition is slightly cheaper if you go infrequently. You shoot and can learn from the other competitors.

If you are short on time like I am usually, I think training might be a better option if you are face with an either/or dilemma.

You can reinforce what you learn from both training and competition with dedicated dry-fire practice at home.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
It's a great introduction into competition and you need to take it to shoot at Richmond unless you are already an experienced competition shooter.

However, it is an orientation to shooting on the action range and an intro to competition not a training class.

Now if you are considering costs, I may have to bring up Highlander51's 'clever' comment from SISIG's other thread. Training or Competition will be costly. Proficiency with firearms will be costly. I'm not quite sure what the comparison is here. Ideally and realistically you should do both to be proficient.

If you are short on cash, I actually think competition is slightly cheaper if you go infrequently. You shoot and can learn from the other competitors.

If you are short on time like I am usually, I think training might be a better option if you are face with an either/or dilemma.

You can reinforce what you learn from both training and competition with dedicated dry-fire practice at home.
Because of Higlander's ' clever' comment my crocheting gear is in place ha! I will proceed with enough knowledge base so as not to be way off course as to what my main objective is, that is to be proficient.

My progression has been like this:
.Have my gear ready and have enough ammo for the rest of the year's class/training
.Took Basic Pistol Course (NRA)
.Range time when I can to practice the fundamentals and my shot process
.This July I'm taking a weekend class with GRAY OPS in Sacramento
.Read as much as I can
.Dry Fire/Drill at home( this one really help me a lot and notice the difference when i get to the range.

I'm aware of any associated cost with a lifelong learning and I'm okay with that. That is why I ask questions rather than going blind and be tainted with a little knowledge and be lost.

Then after some honest assessment and feedback from experienced folks then will take the next level. Then I will compete and be prepared to be HUMBLED and SPANKED!+
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Old 04-06-2013, 2:19 PM
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Did I meet any other CGers other than Tumbleweed.13 at DAP today on 4/6?
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Old 04-06-2013, 6:46 PM
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Nice meeting you today. Had a good time in the class. I will be shooting in the USPSA match tomorrow at Richmond.


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Did I meet any other CGers other than Tumbleweed.13 at DAP today on 4/6?
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Old 04-06-2013, 7:55 PM
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Default When I compete, I purposely work

to remain tactically correct, even though it adds time on the clock.

Also, paintball is great for skills. It will definitely teach you to snap shoot, move fast, stay tight to cover, and shoot angles.

If you are slow or loose in paintball you get punished.
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Old 04-06-2013, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
Did I meet any other CGers other than Tumbleweed.13 at DAP today on 4/6?
There were a few of us out there. Mostly shooting on bay 4 after the class stuff was done.

Richmond tomorrow, rain or shine.

Al
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Old 04-07-2013, 5:41 PM
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Default Having Priorities.

Match shooting is no place to learn how to shoot safety or to improve your shooting fundamentals. Under match or stress induced conditions, at best you can expect to shoot up to your current level of experience.

You shoot a lot of matches to improve your match shooting skills. Your fundamentals are developed into your shooting skill-set on the square range without inducement of tricks or secrets or shortcuts of any kind.

The key for SD shooting is to incorporate correct decision making combined with the execution of the apex of your entire shooting skill-set at any time.

One day of flight school does not F-22 Raptor Pilot make.

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Old 04-09-2013, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumbleweed.13 View Post
Nice meeting you today. Had a good time in the class. I will be shooting in the USPSA match tomorrow at Richmond.
How did your richmond match go?
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Old 04-10-2013, 5:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
How did your richmond match go?
It was fun. They had some really tough stages setup. I shot ok in some and really bad in others but NO DQ so as far as I am concerned it went well. Not sure if I will be at USI on the 14th yet or not, but there is a good chance I will be back at Richmond on the 21st. Here is the video from the match.

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Old 04-10-2013, 8:05 PM
Brian1979 Brian1979 is offline
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Match shooting is no place to learn how to shoot safety or to improve your shooting fundamentals. Under match or stress induced conditions, at best you can expect to shoot up to your current level of experience.

You shoot a lot of matches to improve your match shooting skills. Your fundamentals are developed into your shooting skill-set on the square range without inducement of tricks or secrets or shortcuts of any kind.

The key for SD shooting is to incorporate correct decision making combined with the execution of the apex of your entire shooting skill-set at any time.

One day of flight school does not F-22 Raptor Pilot make.
LOL
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Old 04-10-2013, 8:09 PM
Brian1979 Brian1979 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tumbleweed.13 View Post
It was fun. They had some really tough stages setup. I shot ok in some and really bad in others but NO DQ so as far as I am concerned it went well. Not sure if I will be at USI on the 14th yet or not, but there is a good chance I will be back at Richmond on the 21st. Here is the video from the match.

Those have to be the worst USPSA stages I have seen. I hope you get to find another club that can set good stages or you may get turned off. That first stage was like a 5 minute time. I suppose it may be fun to put steel at 50yrds and see who cant hit it but its not exactly USPSA.
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Old 04-11-2013, 3:28 PM
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Those have to be the worst USPSA stages I have seen. I hope you get to find another club that can set good stages or you may get turned off. That first stage was like a 5 minute time. I suppose it may be fun to put steel at 50yrds and see who cant hit it but its not exactly USPSA.
I can see how Richmond can be difficult for new shooters but they usually mix up the stages between hoser and uber difficult. It's a way to keep the vets challenged and not bored while exposing newbies to some of the more difficult shots they may encounter. If one wants something a bit more hoser friendly and still fun, then Chabot and Diablo are pretty good Bay Area clubs also.
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Old 04-11-2013, 5:43 PM
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It wasn't that bad. That first stage really did suck though. It was modified from a rifle stage. Everyone I talked to there said a stage like that is rare so I am not really worried. I will be shooting at USI in Concord with Diablo Action Pistol this Sunday and I hope to be back at Richmond on the 21st.
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