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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #201  
Old 06-10-2013, 3:37 PM
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um yeah dont count on resupply. mmkay.
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  #202  
Old 06-10-2013, 4:51 PM
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AK47......there is no substitute. However in a domestic SHTF scenario, 223 and 556 ammo and AR proprietary mags would be in greater supply due to our reliance on those as a NATO country. Whatever weapon I could carry along with a lot of ammo would be a first choice. I think the member who suggested a Marlin 795 had a lot of validity to his response.
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  #203  
Old 06-10-2013, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
.

I don't give a rats butt if you were a SEAL/Ranger/Sniper/Grunt or supply clerk... your experience in the military will not help you pick a proper rifle for long term survival or SHTF grid-down world.
Everything you know and were taught was based on a set of logistics that are not available to you in a SHTF grid down world.

please tell us your vast knowledge of military training when it comes to fighting?

I don't care how many fire fights you have been in... that gives you no knowledge of what a person in a SHTF grid down world will need.
please tell us all how many firefights you have been to give this vast amount of knowledge thinking that knowing what to do when the lead is flying means nothing.

but please tell us all how many firefights you have been in and airsoft doesn't count.
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  #204  
Old 06-11-2013, 9:07 AM
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Stan08. Very nice write up and comments. Got me looking at it another way. Modern AR variant w chrome lined barrel, and chamber and Adjustable chrome lined Piston driven system seems to knock all the other issues out about the ar platform getting dirty so fast to the point of failures.
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  #205  
Old 06-11-2013, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
Its amusing to me how many people attribute military experience and battlefield experience to SHTF recommendations... they are so far apart its not even funny.

I don't give a rats butt if you were a SEAL/Ranger/Sniper/Grunt or supply clerk... your experience in the military will not help you pick a proper rifle for long term survival or SHTF grid-down world.
Everything you know and were taught was based on a set of logistics that are not available to you in a SHTF grid down world.


I don't care how many fire fights you have been in... that gives you no knowledge of what a person in a SHTF grid down world will need.

In North AMERICA, the most common ammo, the most common parts, the most commonly issued rifle is the AR15...and thats what you need in North AMERICA during a SHTF grid-down world.

If you don't understand that...You really have no business posting in a SHTF thread. Its all make-believe to you and you hold no grip on reality.
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  #206  
Old 06-11-2013, 5:22 PM
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I say have both. There are places for the Ar-15 and places for the Ak. I'm going to stick with my AK. I think there are more Ak-47 owners out there than people think. The 7.62x39 round isn't on the shelf which tells me there are sks's and ak's out there and are plentiful. So for me my family can have the ar-15 and I'll stick with the AK. You will not see me walking in open country to get picked off. I believe the AR rounds do not do very well shooting through branches and such. The AK round is bigger allowing it to penetrate cars, double glass, and small branches. I know the world will not be perfect but I think the chances people having a fire fight 300-500 yards away is going to be slim. People will not have the ability to waste ammo shooting at those distances. People will probably be in a fire fight between 0-200 yards which is fine for the Ak. If your doing anything longer than that go with a bolt action or semi auto rifle built to fire longer distances. just my 2 cents

Last edited by rob86; 06-11-2013 at 5:26 PM..
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  #207  
Old 06-11-2013, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
please tell us all how many firefights you have been to give this vast amount of knowledge thinking that knowing what to do when the lead is flying means nothing.

but please tell us all how many firefights you have been in and airsoft doesn't count.
LOL that guy is a joke.

He says military experience doesn't count towards SHTF because military trains/operates differently. I'm curious then as to who is qualified to offer guidance or opinion on SHTF situation because I guarantee no one here has ever been in one. He's slower than me in 9th grade algebra.

I love all my ARs, but 5.56 just doesn't do it. I don't have any chambered in anything larger so I'll go with my AK. I can (and have) kept an AR platform clean in horrible conditions so I wouldn't be worried about the reliability of it. It would definitely be easier to essentially neglect cleaning the AK, but it's not an overwhelming decision, at least to me. The fact that 5.56 sucks is why I'd choose an AK.
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  #208  
Old 06-11-2013, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
LOL that guy is a joke.

He says military experience doesn't count towards SHTF because military trains/operates differently. I'm curious then as to who is qualified to offer guidance or opinion on SHTF situation because I guarantee no one here has ever been in one. He's slower than me in 9th grade algebra.

I love all my ARs, but 5.56 just doesn't do it. I don't have any chambered in anything larger so I'll go with my AK. I can (and have) kept an AR platform clean in horrible conditions so I wouldn't be worried about the reliability of it. It would definitely be easier to essentially neglect cleaning the AK, but it's not an overwhelming decision, at least to me. The fact that 5.56 sucks is why I'd choose an AK.
Ditto... But who am I...
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  #209  
Old 06-11-2013, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
LOL that guy is a joke....
You probably won't be hearing from him around here any longer...and that's a good thing.
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  #210  
Old 06-11-2013, 7:49 PM
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Always a semi-auto AR15 over a semi civilian version of the AK47. If you're going to go with a semi-auto AK, then get an SKS instead. The charger clips are more practical in the field instead of screwing around with mags. The AK also has primitive crappy 19th Century sights and clumsy box magazines to manage. A bunch of loaded SKS strippers as with the M1 Garand en-bloc clips can be stashed into field jacket pockets. Much less distraction with less extraneous stuff is always a good thing.

The equation changes completely when the weapon is a real AK-47 / AKM with selective fire instead of just a semi-auto arm chair warrior version. The large capacity magazine then becomes a positive practical factor in full-auto mode fire.

Last edited by Capt Quahog; 06-11-2013 at 7:53 PM..
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  #211  
Old 06-11-2013, 7:59 PM
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^^ I can hit steel at 200 yards with my primitive sights on the Ak.
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  #212  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:27 PM
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Quote:
The fact that 5.56 sucks is why I'd choose an AK.
Tell you what . . . I've seen 55 grain 5.56 full metal jacket NATO rounds fired from an AR15 with 20-inch barrel rip right through 1-inch thick steel targets. Clean holes about the size of half dollar turned those targets into Swiss cheese. We fired multiple rounds with the exact same effect from about 100-yards.

Side by side for comparison, we also shot 30.06 military ball and armor piercing ammunition fired from M1 Garand rifles. Those ball rounds embedded themselves into the targets with the A P ammo either punching into the metal making a dent or nearly cracking through the steel to back. None went though the steel targets as did the 5.56 NATO rounds every time.

The NATO 5.56 , 55-grain round fired from the AR15 with 20-inch barrel is flat trajectory traveling at 3259 feet per second. With 16" barrel velocity drops slightly to 3132.

Meanwhile, the 30.06 M2 ball ammo fired from an M1 Garand is 2880 feet per second with much more bullet mass. The round simply slows down faster because of size and weight.

Back in the 1970s, the Irish Republican Army favored the M16 rifle simply because the 5.56 NATO round would penetrate British military and police protective vests. As legend goes . . . those 5.56 rounds would go right on through from one side to the other without slowing down much.

Last edited by Capt Quahog; 06-11-2013 at 8:30 PM..
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  #213  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
You probably won't be hearing from him around here any longer...and that's a good thing.
Stan are you sure about that?
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  #214  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Quahog View Post
Tell you what . . . I've seen 55 grain 5.56 full metal jacket NATO rounds fired from an AR15 with 20-inch barrel rip right through 1-inch thick steel targets. Clean holes about the size of half dollar turned those targets into Swiss cheese. We fired multiple rounds with the exact same effect from about 100-yards.

Side by side for comparison, we also shot 30.06 military ball and armor piercing ammunition fired from M1 Garand rifles. Those ball rounds embedded themselves into the targets with the A P ammo either punching into the metal making a dent or nearly cracking through the steel to back. None went though the steel targets as did the 5.56 NATO rounds every time.

The NATO 5.56 , 55-grain round fired from the AR15 with 20-inch barrel is flat trajectory traveling at 3259 feet per second. With 16" barrel velocity drops slightly to 3132.

Meanwhile, the 30.06 M2 ball ammo fired from an M1 Garand is 2880 feet per second with much more bullet mass. The round simply slows down faster because of size and weight.

Back in the 1970s, the Irish Republican Army favored the M16 rifle simply because the 5.56 NATO round would penetrate British military and police protective vests. As legend goes . . . those 5.56 rounds would go right on through from one side to the other without slowing down much.
Thanks for proving my point. The round does that same thing it did to the steel as a human. It creates a very small and clean hole and doesn't stop a man unless you hit him in the spine, heart or head.
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  #215  
Old 06-11-2013, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
thanks for proving my point. The round does that same thing it did to the steel as a human. It creates a very small and clean hole and doesn't stop a man unless you hit him in the spine, heart or head.
Huh? Good gawd! . . . What kind of guys are you tentatively going up against? The Incredible Hulk and his 14-foot tall, 900 pound buddies?

Are we talking head-on charging drugged-out berzerk Moro tribesmen in the Philippines circa 1903? If that's the case, then I'll use my old trusty M97 Winchester trench broom to cut em half with buckshot before they're able to lob off my friggen head with a machete'.

Tell you what . . .most people with a half dollar size bullet hole in them punched through from front to back and out the other side aren't going to be running around for very long thereafter.



Except for maybe these guys?

Last edited by Capt Quahog; 06-11-2013 at 9:14 PM..
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  #216  
Old 06-11-2013, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt Quahog View Post
Huh? Good gawd! . . . What kind of guys are you tentatively going up against? The Incredible Hulk and his buddies?

Are we talking head-on charging drugged-out berzerk Moro tribesmen in the Philippines circa 1903? If that's the case, then I'll use my old trusty M97 Winchester trench broom to cut em half with buckshot before they're able to lob off my friggen head with a machete'.

Tell you what . . .most people with a half dollar size bullet hole in them running from front to back and out the other side aren't going to be running around for very long thereafter.

Dude what are you talking about?

Ask any combat veteran (legit combat veteran not some idiot who earned a CAB or CIB for nothing) if the 5.56 is effective and if they know anything they will say it's a piece of ****. If you think it's a good round you obviously have never witnessed someone getting hit by it.
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  #217  
Old 06-12-2013, 8:21 PM
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AR since I'm not going to be in a third world country when the SHTF. More ammo for the AR in the US and I can carry more of it. Last Tim I checked DHLS purchases millions of rounds of 223, not AK ammo.
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  #218  
Old 06-12-2013, 8:40 PM
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Question, what size hole in steel does standard 5.56 ball ammo make?

I am curious because my understanding of the ballistics of 5.56 and the issue with smaller framed targets and the pencil shot effect where the energy does not get transfered to the target. Which is what I assume Steve is talking about.

I was rather surprised recently by 5.45 surplus that put sizable holes in steel. Much larger than expected and was curious if that was due to the design of the bullet or if 5.56 does the same. The 5.45 has a small hollow concealed in the tip before the lead and steel penetrator. I was seeing at least a doubling in diameter on the penetrating hits. The 5.45 utterly destroyed my steel targets which were rated for 30-06. Then again my soft core 8mm blew even larger chunks out of the steel. Probably crap steel in the end but I wonder if that Russian "battle legal" hollow point does what it is intended.
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  #219  
Old 06-12-2013, 9:22 PM
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Ok at risk of being dragged in a "caliber war" ala 9mm vs 45ACP and against my better judgment, I will ask you this: Have you seen the wounds from a 5.56 and 7.62X39 (AK) Honestly? I have. I am NOT talking about the bull**** gelatin test, but the real deal. There is a huge difference, but I wouldn't want to be hit by either.

Now, there is a certain load labelled as "too devastating" or some similar bs and very hot, for 5.56, that will cause almost as much damage as the standard 7.62X39. My opinion is that the speed of the said bullet makes it so.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
Ok at risk of being dragged in a "caliber war" ala 9mm vs 45ACP and against my better judgment, I will ask you this: Have you seen the wounds from a 5.56 and 7.62X39 (AK) Honestly? I have. I am NOT talking about the bull**** gelatin test, but the real deal. There is a huge difference, but I wouldn't want to be hit by either.

Now, there is a certain load labelled as "too devastating" or some similar bs and very hot, for 5.56, that will cause almost as much damage as the standard 7.62X39. My opinion is that the speed of the said bullet makes it so.
Not sure if this was directed at me but anything I post regarding 5.56 is in reference to 855 or 193 (as I always state). I have heard hotter 5.56 rounds or those with 70+ grain do much better compared to 855/193 but I cannot say for sure since I have no experience with them.

I have seen what 9mm Makarov, 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54R and some larger calibers do to humans.
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  #221  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:01 PM
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Scuba steve,
Not directed at you at or anyone else in particular, honestly. I personally own a bunch of ars and aks and strongly prefer aks based on their reliability and stopping power. I know, I know, it's 9mm v 45acp all over again. But I am not selling my ars anytime soon or ever for that matter.

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  #222  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:13 PM
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Scuba steve,
Not directed at you at or anyone else in particular, honestly. I personally own a bunch of ars and aks and strongly prefer aks based on their reliability and stopping power. I know, I know, it's 9mm v 45acp all over again. But I am not selling my ars anytime soon or ever for that matter.

Cheers
Gotcha. I personally think all handgun rounds are pretty garbage and shot placement is king when dealing with handguns but that's a different debate lol.

In the rifle world this is not the case, as you're well aware of. It always amuses me when people argue that standard 855 ball is good but they have no real experience with it.

I own more ARs than AKs and love them but no one can deny the weakness of the round. Both platforms are great and have their pros and cons but 5.56 just doesn't cut it. Give me an AR in 6.8 or .300 and I'll be happy.
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  #223  
Old 06-13-2013, 7:30 AM
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I imagine that against soft targets, unarmored people, that use of Varminter type bullets would be probably so devastating in any of the hyper-velocity calibers to moot the point. Explosive expansion and fragmentation means all that energy is going into the target in the form of trauma of some kind.

We all talk about mil ammo because it is easier to stockpile for obvious reasons. But if SHTF we will probably need more soft point or varmint type polymer hollow point bullets than mil ball of any variety. I don't see us needing to take out an armored target or light armored vehicle on a regular basis. Something that the AR or the AK can accomplish. Most modern consumer vehicles have such light weight engines that they are paper thin, a 9mm FMJ can disable such vehicles.
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  #224  
Old 06-13-2013, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
I imagine that against soft targets, unarmored people, that use of Varminter type bullets would be probably so devastating in any of the hyper-velocity calibers to moot the point. Explosive expansion and fragmentation means all that energy is going into the target in the form of trauma of some kind.

We all talk about mil ammo because it is easier to stockpile for obvious reasons. But if SHTF we will probably need more soft point or varmint type polymer hollow point bullets than mil ball of any variety. I don't see us needing to take out an armored target or light armored vehicle on a regular basis. Something that the AR or the AK can accomplish. Most modern consumer vehicles have such light weight engines that they are paper thin, a 9mm FMJ can disable such vehicles.
Just a note, I've used HP ammo in my ARs and they have a 1:10 failure to feed rate. Typically gets hung up in the chamber. If you can find one that feeds reliably then go for it but you'll want to test it throughly in a rifle class first. Test subjects have been BCM chrome lined chamber 1:7 twist barrels.
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  #225  
Old 06-13-2013, 9:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt Quahog View Post
...55 grain 5.56 full metal jacket NATO rounds...
"M193" would save you a LOT of typing...
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  #226  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
Just a note, I've used HP ammo in my ARs and they have a 1:10 failure to feed rate. Typically gets hung up in the chamber. If you can find one that feeds reliably then go for it but you'll want to test it throughly in a rifle class first. Test subjects have been BCM chrome lined chamber 1:7 twist barrels.
Never had a Black Hills 68 or 69 grain hp ever jam on me and we have fired tens of thousands of them.
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  #227  
Old 06-13-2013, 11:28 AM
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First take a look at some real world gunshot wounds and see what they are capable of.
Ask the medical folks as to what they deal with and there is good info out there.
Example HERE
Another example HERE
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  #228  
Old 06-13-2013, 12:42 PM
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Default This question has been asked more times than anything I can think off...

Go with an sks. Being that you live in CA, its a lot easier to get one and you can reload it faster. It won't violate any of the current laws or any of the silly new ones being proposed. If however you're talking about a situation where the law doesn't apply, go for the AK. Ammo and cleaning products will be scarce. Get a gun that you can buy plenty of ammo for and that doesn't need a lot of cleaning.
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  #229  
Old 06-13-2013, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
Just a note, I've used HP ammo in my ARs and they have a 1:10 failure to feed rate. Typically gets hung up in the chamber. If you can find one that feeds reliably then go for it but you'll want to test it throughly in a rifle class first. Test subjects have been BCM chrome lined chamber 1:7 twist barrels.
What kind? Exposed lead softpoint? Full HP? Varminter Polymer protected HP (the ones with the plastic tips)?

Just curious also might be an ogive issue with the feed angle and some of the HPs. Dunno though. I run AKs, and 5.45 on top of that, I don't really need any fancy pants ammo to get the job done in a variety of targets. I just use 1981 production 7n6.
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Old 06-13-2013, 8:29 PM
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M193 fragments reliably above 2700+fps. The wound channel it creates when it fragments isn't easy to laugh off. M193 fragmenting would be more preferable than M855 that doesn't.

In an M4 length barrel M193 stays above 2700fps out to about 100+yards.

The Russians designed the AK74 bullet to fragment after seeing what M193 could do in Vietnam.

In the sense of fragmentation M855 was a step backwards. This is because they designed it for penetration of light armor not for fragmentation.

Here's a M193 round fragmenting in a leg:

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

Last edited by RuggedJay; 06-13-2013 at 8:40 PM..
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  #231  
Old 06-13-2013, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
What kind? Exposed lead softpoint? Full HP? Varminter Polymer protected HP (the ones with the plastic tips)?

Just curious also might be an ogive issue with the feed angle and some of the HPs. Dunno though. I run AKs, and 5.45 on top of that, I don't really need any fancy pants ammo to get the job done in a variety of targets. I just use 1981 production 7n6.
Wolf 55gr JHP and Privi 75gr match JHPBT

The polymer protected HPs would probably work fine but probably are not cheap.
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  #232  
Old 06-13-2013, 8:56 PM
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AK of course but these days if you have a piston AR-it's good to go too. Other rifle to consider would be SIG556.
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Old 06-13-2013, 8:56 PM
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My rifle.
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Where is this ammo "Black market" he speaks of? Do they have .223 in stock?
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  #234  
Old 06-14-2013, 1:25 PM
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I live in the United States, so I'll go with an AR-15. Because while I go scavenging through the abandoned police car, I hope to find ammo I can use. When I go looting a dead soldiers body, I want ammo I can use.

Common caliber people...
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Old 06-14-2013, 1:54 PM
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Just a note, I've used HP ammo in my ARs and they have a 1:10 failure to feed rate. Typically gets hung up in the chamber. If you can find one that feeds reliably then go for it but you'll want to test it throughly in a rifle class first. Test subjects have been BCM chrome lined chamber 1:7 twist barrels.
I agree with testing ammo first before stock piling it. I've had no problems with HP in the AR platform.
Pre-panic I was buying cases of Wolf 55gr JHP at the local gun show since they were cheap (was $285 for 1k rounds). Still have a bunch left so that's all I use (I refuse to pay post-panic prices).

I've shot thousands of rounds of this stuff and never had any problems with feeding. My uppers are all Adams Arms (one was converted to piston others are AA uppers).
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Old 06-22-2013, 1:07 AM
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AK hands down!
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  #237  
Old 06-22-2013, 5:08 AM
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Both (assuming you are limiting the scope to 5.56 vs 7.62x39)
In this dream shtf world, what kind of targets are you expecting to hit?

mob of zombies - one in each hand & KYA goodbye

more serious tin-foil hattery...
The eats:
mid/large game-7.62 out here in far east county I've seen pig and deer both on extremely rare occasions.

small game- 5.56 hands down. Out here in sub-urban/rural san diego the only local game is no bigger than a dog. But if I had to mack on squirrel for a while I sure as hell would like to skin it somewhat whole vs. picking up scattered parts. Anyone shoot a sitting duck with an ak? Just curious how it holds together... anyway, I have heard rumors of wild turkey but YMMV.

I'm not sure what human scenario you guys are expecting but the fact that you possess either one is a deterrent to the average Joe. Even if in armed conflict it doesn't really matter. It simply comes down to life sustaining medical support. Where are the doctors and who's gonna work on the other guys' (or your) bullet wound. Any bullet trauma could be life threatening.

Close range <200m AK for the ballistics previously argued. Someone mentioned Blackhawk Down. The x855's failure in Mogadishu in 1993 is evidence enough that on an un-armored person, the 855 ballistics are too fast to be effective a close range. Not that it wont, don't get me wrong. <but>
A threat that can be hit in the chest multiple times and continue firing then taking multiple steps before collapsing to die is a danger to you. I cant remember the actual quoted analysis but I think that was about it..

anyway >200m by all means AR. Hit and move. You can lug much more 5.56 than 7.62 by weight. (about 39.28% more)

Armored targets.. Either will make good suppression =P outside of that hope you get a hit or penetration and disengage asap. Medical reasoning above. You should expect return fire (especially) from armored targets and the longer you sit in a fire fight the worse your odds. Shoot n move, shoot n move. it's not that you cant win or aren't a better shot but I'd assume during shtf the primary objective is survival and not conflict.

Last edited by gixxnrocket; 06-22-2013 at 5:09 AM.. Reason: spelling
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  #238  
Old 06-22-2013, 1:38 PM
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Something relevant to this conversation was a post on the survival blog a couple of days ago with lots of links about 5.56.

Check it out HERE.

BTW, if you don't read survivalblog I would highly recommend it. It's James Wesley, Rawles blog. You prolly know him from his novels (Patriots was my favorite). But his blog is updated daily and has lots of guest articles and just packed with good info.
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Old 06-22-2013, 6:45 PM
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?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????
HUH?
Isnt on the shelf where? Its been ON THE SHELF the whole time sitting right next to the #7 12ga bird shot.

The only thing an AK is good for, well besides clubbing your camel, is holding it around a corner and pulling the trigger while you yell alaakbar.




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I say have both. There are places for the Ar-15 and places for the Ak. I'm going to stick with my AK. I think there are more Ak-47 owners out there than people think. The 7.62x39 round isn't on the shelf which tells me there are sks's and ak's out there and are plentiful. So for me my family can have the ar-15 and I'll stick with the AK. You will not see me walking in open country to get picked off. I believe the AR rounds do not do very well shooting through branches and such. The AK round is bigger allowing it to penetrate cars, double glass, and small branches. I know the world will not be perfect but I think the chances people having a fire fight 300-500 yards away is going to be slim. People will not have the ability to waste ammo shooting at those distances. People will probably be in a fire fight between 0-200 yards which is fine for the Ak. If your doing anything longer than that go with a bolt action or semi auto rifle built to fire longer distances. just my 2 cents
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  #240  
Old 06-24-2013, 8:42 AM
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The only thing an AK is good for, well besides clubbing your camel, is holding it around a corner and pulling the trigger while you yell alaakbar.
Sounds like you dislike the weapon system for a completely different reason altogether. If the Turrrists start using ARs extensively will your opinion change as well?
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