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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #41  
Old 03-26-2013, 7:12 AM
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I am proficient at both but I will say I would choose the caliber my opposition was shooting. If the opposition was shooting AR .223 that would be the gun I would take. Resupply in a SHTF scenario is non existant. The only hope you have is battle field capture.

Now if my opponent has a AK I can always switch once I have collected captured weapons.

Just give me one that goes bang each time I pull the trigger and remember the reliability you get from either platform should not be judged on a range outing scenario. Anybody can keep a gun running at the clean range for one day try a week of dragging you and it through the elements that is when care of weapon is imperative.
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  #42  
Old 03-26-2013, 7:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jrock View Post
Well, look at the results...
The fans been on and operating at full power for decades through out the world, and it doesnt smell good in those places.
Common demonator=ak

Yup!
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  #43  
Old 03-26-2013, 7:37 AM
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Have we forgotten about the 74!?
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  #44  
Old 03-26-2013, 9:56 AM
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Would your views change if this weapon also had to feed you? I would lean toward an AR with a .22lr conversion kit (even an additional dedicated upper) and ammo on hand. Hunting small game would get old with a large caliber. And if your running your rig long enough for malfunctions to be a concern in a SHTF situation your doing it wrong IMHO.
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  #45  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:46 AM
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AR for me.
I should mention that I only run gas piston ARs because from my personal experience, they have been much more reliable for extended firing sessions compared to DI builds.

My selection is based on weight, accuracy, 22lr conversion kits, and familiarity.

ETA: the fact that 223/556 seems to be a bit more common nowadays than 762 so seems it would be easier to find.
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  #46  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:13 AM
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M-16 Variant vs. AK-47 Kalashnikov Variant

The short version is; I would not disrespect a friend or foe armed with either.

Each weapon system has its own nuances, manual of arms, immediate and remedial action drills. I would expect a “friend” armed with either one to be competent on his choice rifle and with the proper training they are both exceptional weapons.

One thing we had going for us in Marjeh, Afghanistan was that many Afghan insurgents did not have stocks on their AKs; no stock = no stock weld, no cheek weld, improper sight alignment = inaccurate fire and missing us.

Ammunition Supply:
There was a time not long ago when you could buy a case of 1000 Norinco 7.62x39mm rounds for about $100. You could truly buy cheap and stack deep. If I only had liquid income back then…Assuming you are one of these smart people with stacks/cases of 7.62 short then you are good to go, train away and work on your AK mag change drills.

On the other hand however, the AR and its M-16 derivatives being America’s rifle loans itself to ease of logistics. Though I don’t have a firm number, I am sure that there are many more AR type rifles than AKs in the United States and should you be in a situation to recover weapons and ammunition (whether in a good or bad way) the probability of it being an AR in 5.56mm are much greater.

Extended Contact and Survival:
Some have mentioned that their AKs can endure so many more hundreds of rounds versus an AR type may be right, but this is an academic statement for the great majority of civilians here who are not (any longer) military or law enforcement. As Joe Citizen seeking refuge from the big earthquake, ensuing riot and rampant crime you will want to avoid all contact (exchanges of fire) as possible. Every engagement will be points deducted against your life meter. Every time you are exchanging fire means the life expectancy of you and your family or group is diminished. Even a superficial wound to the arm can kill you if it gets infected. You will want to break contact until there is no choice but to assault through. If your bid for success/survival is via overwhelming firepower then you and your family need to invest in an M-134 minigun mounted to a truck. For the rest of you, your chances of survival are increased if you break contact (in an organized fashion) which will not require several hundreds of rounds.

I say this in my classes and seminars; the second worst situation is to be alone in a survival situation. The number one worst situation is to be in a group of people, all armed having never trained together and acting independently. With proper training you can fix situation number one.

Also to add, your SHTF situation will probably not be like Black Hawk Down. You are going to have down time. During that down time you will have things you need to do to including weapons maintenance.

Which ever rifle you choose put it through its paces in a class firing controlled and hammer pairs and conducting many, many reloading and immediate action drills. Don’t judge the reliability of your rifle by its performance at the public range where it is slow fire only. I would hope your rifle is reliable in that circumstance as all should. Train with your rifle in a class wearing your choice gear ensemble while conducting realistic drills. By the end of your class you will know if your rifle is SHTF ready. Did your optic mount work loose? Did your optic shut off?? Which magazines worked or did not? Loctite?

For those going the AR route I recommend it chambered for 5.56mm with chrome chamber and bore. This will aid in ammunition logistics, reliability and maintenance. Some AR barrels are chambered in .223 Remington which can not use 5.56mm. With a 5.56mm chamber you can use both. As far as optics, stocks, etc. there are plenty of other places to talk about that.

In an AK, I would like a stock with adjustable length of pull to match my clothing and weather and a solid quality optic and mount. An Aimpoint T-1 on an AK should be an amalgam of reliability. I would go with polymer mags in either the Chinese, Bulgarian or transparent variety.

A couple wild cards to throw some of you off:

Sig 556: AK type action and reliability yet uses M-16 magazines for logistics. Early models had teething issues.

Sig 556R: AK type action and reliability, chambered in 7.62x39mm uses AK-47 magazines, 1st world quality, picatinny rail, M-16 type safety selector switch, though not tested en masse.


A great link to the eternal AK vs AR debate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari..._AK-47_and_M16
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Last edited by Stan08; 03-26-2013 at 5:01 PM.. Reason: added Sig 556 and R
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  #47  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:41 AM
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Good write up Stan08!!!

I don't believe any foe was happy to face an enemy armed with either weapon...
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skoonie View Post
Would your views change if this weapon also had to feed you? I would lean toward an AR with a .22lr conversion kit (even an additional dedicated upper) and ammo on hand. Hunting small game would get old with a large caliber. And if your running your rig long enough for malfunctions to be a concern in a SHTF situation your doing it wrong IMHO.
+1

The .22 conversion makes the AR a better platform for getting food without attracting attention from the locals. Birds, squirrels and raccoons are going to be on the menu more than deer or larger game in most areas.

I suppose you could also silently hunt deer with a bayonet equipped AK......
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  #49  
Old 03-26-2013, 11:48 AM
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AK, because my M14 wasn't available for whatever reason your thread demands.
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  #50  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:44 PM
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Another week went by?

Time to post this video again for all the newcomers:
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  #51  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:56 PM
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A better discussion I think is why is the AK more reliable.

I have never owned an AK but I am fully aware of their reputation for being one of the most reliable rifles. And I do not dispute it.

But after owning both DI and gas pistol ARs I would absolutely agree the piston system is far superior to the DI. Since the AK is also a piston, is this the reason?

Again I'm not disputing the reliability of the AK but am very interested to hear from people more knowledgeable on the mechanics of the two that may provide some insight.

AK piston diagram:


AR DI vs Adams Arms piston diagram:
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  #52  
Old 03-26-2013, 1:00 PM
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I would go with a AK platform chambered in 5.56 like a Polish Beryl or Israeli Galil
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  #53  
Old 03-26-2013, 1:09 PM
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762x39
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  #54  
Old 03-26-2013, 1:17 PM
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I don't own one but I would still choose an AK. Much more reliable.
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  #55  
Old 03-26-2013, 1:37 PM
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The one that has the most ammo available in my house and is closest to my hand when the time comes.
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  #56  
Old 03-26-2013, 2:21 PM
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thanks for bringing that up Stan08, my Sig556ER is just as reliable as my AK, the Sig is a bit heavier that most AR's and the AK platforms, but I would still run with it because of the availability of mags and ammo


Last edited by xgi1991; 03-26-2013 at 2:24 PM..
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  #57  
Old 03-26-2013, 2:32 PM
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AR 15 if it was here in America if in almost anywhere else it would be an AK
Everyone and their brother has an AR here and parts would be more available for the AR when anf if it broke down, or you wanted to modify it.
It is the Barbie Doll of guns with every accesory you ever wanted.
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  #58  
Old 03-26-2013, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
A better discussion I think is why is the AK more reliable.

I have never owned an AK but I am fully aware of their reputation for being one of the most reliable rifles. And I do not dispute it.

But after owning both DI and gas pistol ARs I would absolutely agree the piston system is far superior to the DI. Since the AK is also a piston, is this the reason?

Again I'm not disputing the reliability of the AK but am very interested to hear from people more knowledgeable on the mechanics of the two that may provide some insight.

AK piston diagram:


AR DI vs Adams Arms piston diagram:
The Piston design is not exactly what makes the AK more reliable. In my opinion it is the Loose tolerances

1 the Bolt carrier fits pretty loosely between the rails allowing it to travel back and forth passing the dirt under any conditions. And the Contact with the side rails is minimal
2 the simplicity of the Bolt carrier / Gas Piston Design that thing is Huge and strong and can probably used to beat someone to death if you run out of ammo. The Bolt itself is very simple it has a huge lug to lock itself into the the carrier and 2 Huge lugs that lock the Bolt in battery again its a very Strong design but not very tight or uniform so you are loosing accuracy.
3 The FCG is also very Simple (not to say that and AR trigger is is more complex) and there is a lot of room at the bottom of the receiver. Pop a primer on an AR and it could wedge itself into something in the FCG and you are screwed. Pop a primer on an AK you will most likely be fine if not turn you gun Upward and hit the receiver with your fist what ever is blocking your FCG movement will clear out.

The Problem that you have with AKs is a lot of Parts need to be fitted. And AK requires a lot more tools. I cant Just drop in a new Bolt like I can on an AR. If I need to change a barrel or a gas block well I better go find a hydraulic press.
I can Build an AR with the Armorers tool and a few roll pin Punches. I need a new Bolt Ill just pull one out and stick one in. If I need a new barrel hell Ill Just pull out my spare assembled upper and stick one on there.
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  #59  
Old 03-26-2013, 5:08 PM
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Chevy or Ford debate. Shoot at me with either and I will take cover.

Piston AR15 would be best of both worlds.

I have both, AR gets the nod for me for the ease of optic changes and the inherent better accuracy.
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Old 03-26-2013, 5:16 PM
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AK for me and wife AR, kids 10/22. That is best of both world...
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  #61  
Old 03-26-2013, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
A better discussion I think is why is the AK more reliable.

I have never owned an AK but I am fully aware of their reputation for being one of the most reliable rifles. And I do not dispute it.

But after owning both DI and gas pistol ARs I would absolutely agree the piston system is far superior to the DI. Since the AK is also a piston, is this the reason?

Again I'm not disputing the reliability of the AK but am very interested to hear from people more knowledgeable on the mechanics of the two that may provide some insight.
I am no expert but I believe the Kalashnikov has the following going for it in terms of reliability:

*Generous "clearances" (vice tolerances) in the action for fouling, debris, etc.
*Long stroke gas piston with carrier and op rod connected = fewer parts and positive contact
*Fixed ejector
*Two lug bolt vs multi lugs = less surface area to get caught on.
*Continuous curved magazine that does not "straighten" out. Mikhail got this right the first time. Mags in 1947 are still just as good.
*Tapered cartridge (skinnier in the front than the rear) is geometrically prone for smoother feeding.
*Chrome lined bore and chamber.

To add, I can say the AK-47 does in fact make a distinctive popping sound when fired at you.



Despite all this, the most commonly found carbine in the hands of US SOCOM personnel is still the M-4 block II (with the same ol' direct gas impingement system)..just saying...
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Last edited by Stan08; 03-27-2013 at 9:10 AM..
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  #62  
Old 03-26-2013, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RuggedJay View Post
Let's see how many hits on steel at 400 from each???
My Saiga with Eotech and 3x multiplier will put rounds into a chest sized area (12" circle) every time from 50 to 300yds with the same point of aim. I zero at 50yds, am 6" high at 100, back on at 200 and 6" low at 300. This is with 154gr SP Wolf or Herters ammo.

I routinely hit acetylene tanks at 400 and steel out to 500yds at my local range. I could do better if I had a higher power multiplier though, as at my age the limiting factor is my eyesight.
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Old 03-26-2013, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skoonie View Post
Would your views change if this weapon also had to feed you? I would lean toward an AR with a .22lr conversion kit (even an additional dedicated upper) and ammo on hand.....
It would be much more beneficial and efficient to simply carry a .22 pistol or even a rifle in this situation. Either could be used in an emergency for defense if your primary weapon went tango uniform, where as a dedicated upper would just be a club.
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Old 03-26-2013, 7:47 PM
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I prefer the Ar for many reasons .But give me an AK and I would be just as happy. Both have their + and -. To me the most important thing is they go bang when they are supposed to. In real life guns will soon be banned so we will not have to make a choice. The government will ,,,,,protect us
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Old 03-26-2013, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Socaliente View Post
The 5.56 round was designed to wound enemies on the battlefield, thus taking out 2 more soldiers to carry him away.....
This is incorrect. The 5.56 was based on the now known to be mistaken belief, that in the ballistics world 1+3 (small bullet/traveling faster) would have the same terminal affect as 3+1 (large bullet/traveling slower).

Hence the still ongoing search by our military to wring better stopping power out of the 5.56 cartridge. With even the Army and Marines unable to agree as to the best way to achieve this, as each has currently adopted a totally different round. The Army is fielding their steel tipped bullet and the Marines their not-a-hollow-point-hollow-point.

Last edited by Steve_In_29; 03-26-2013 at 10:26 PM..
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  #66  
Old 03-26-2013, 8:52 PM
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Considering that you are all referencing a 1960's or older AK-47, or a fully automatic AK-47 than yes.

My friend Ssgt in the Marine Corps lives today because the enemies chinese made AK-47 jammed.

As far as people getting shot with a AR-15, usually those guys who get hit should be hit by 1-3 rounds anyway.
They are at times on heavy drugs to keep fighting.

Considering your AK-47 heavily loses any accuracy to hit a target past 100 yrds, and can't sustain a long firefight I question this.

The AK-47 rounds weigh significantly more.

In a close range firefight that is compressed and needs rapid fire the AK-47 round is heavier.

A fully automatic AK-47 is devastating at close range, but can't sustain long fighting. Weighs more, is less accurate.

Give me a AR-15 any day. I can carry more rounds and be more accurate.
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Old 03-26-2013, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
I am no expert but I believe the Kalashnikov has the following going for it in terms of reliability:

*Generous "clearances" (vice tolerances) in the action for fouling, debris, etc.
*Long stroke gas piston with carrier and op rod connected.
*Fixed ejector
*Two lug bolt
*Continuous curved magazine that does not "straighten" out. Mikhail got this right the first time. Mags in 1947 are still just as good.
*Tapered cartridge (skinnier in the front than the rear) is geometrically prone for smoother feeding.

To add, I can say the AK-47 does in fact make a distinctive popping sound when fired at you.



Despite all this, the most commonly found carbine in the hands of US SOCOM personnel is still the M-4 block II (with the same ol' direct gas impingement system)..just saying...
Good info.

BTW, I think the reason the DI is still the most widely used is for cost reasons and not necessarily performance. That's my understanding anyway.
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Old 03-26-2013, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
aalvidrez, no disrespect, but do you want to put your tricked out modern AR against my plain SLR 101 Arsenal AK? Let's see which one jams first--FTF, FTE or any other failure. If you wanna put some money on it, I am game. 500 rounds at least.

$500 says it will be AR.
Maybe you can put your mighty ak up against an AR that ran 87,000 rds without cleaning. Look it up..........
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Old 03-26-2013, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
Good info.

BTW, I think the reason the DI is still the most widely used is for cost reasons and not necessarily performance. That's my understanding anyway.
DI is used because Its the way the gun was designed. With DI you have rearward pressure on the BCG that is inline with where the BCG has to travel too.
With Gas Piston AR you have rearward pressure on the Key above the BCG that can cause tilt. If the AR had rails and Plenty of room for the BCG to Tilt up and down similar to the the AK or SKS it would not be a problem but it doesn't It has to go into the Buffer tube.

I realize That Most People do not Have Bolt tilt Issues but you are still asking the gun to operate in a different way than it was designed and putting more.

I am not totally against Piston AR. I am saving up for an SR 556 and hopefully Ill get it but I still prefer a DI for SHTF.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:25 PM
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Stan08 great info!!! I do have a about 500 7.62s i'm going to put at least 250 down range when I get a little free time. I have access to a outdoor open range. I do need to try my vest out I've never tried moving around in it much less firing with it on.
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  #71  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:31 PM
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I love reading these threads so much information from both views.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCpl Kutches View Post
......Considering your AK-47 heavily loses any accuracy to hit a target past 100 yrds,....
One shouldn't confuse the shooters lack of ability with what the weapon is capable of. See my previous post.

Quote:
..... but can't sustain long fighting.......
????? You mean the Russians have been able to hide for over 50 yrs that their main infantry weapon was incapable of surviving a long fire fight. I am sure there are quite a few Nam vets would would dispute that claim.

Quote:
Give me a AR-15 any day. I can carry more rounds and be more accurate.
Yes you can carry more of a smaller round but the flip side of that is you then also need to use more of those rounds to put an enemy down for the count or reach him behind a barrier.

Just like with the 9mm and .45. That 15rd (or even 18) 9mm mag doesn't account for as many bad guys as you think once you figure in the 2-in-the-chest/1-in-the-head training it requires. While an 8 round 1911 usually equals 8 dead/or down bad guys with single center mass hits.

With MOST combat being documented as taking place well within 100yds (even closer for SHTF I would venture) any long range abilities are really moot in this scenario. But again see my earlier post.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:02 PM
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Because there isnt enough of this EXACT topic on the internet yet...
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:16 PM
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ak for me
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:45 PM
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Ill go with AR, Im more trained and acustomed to it.
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Originally Posted by aalvidrez View Post
Enough with the 1960's mythology of the AK. It's sturdy, absolutely... But the AR in modern configuration has been fighting our wars since '64 and other than teething problems its been doing fine. Thousands of NVA, VC, Lebanese, Cubans, Panamanians, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Somalis, Serbs, Iraquis, Iranians, Syrians, Afghanis, and a whole host of others can attest to its effectiveness. Keep it clean and it'll do the job accurately.
Agreed. The M16/AR15 has a pretty good track record so far. My buddies and I used M16's very effectively in combat as Marine infantrymen during OIF; I have used one for defense as an armed professional doing work as a contractor; and I've also owned a few AR15's for fun as a firearms enthusiast and gun collector. Countless members of the US Armed Services can probably also attest to the reliability and effectiveness of the newer M16 variants in service today around the world during the GWOT.

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Originally Posted by LCpl Kutches View Post
Considering that you are all referencing a 1960's or older AK-47, or a fully automatic AK-47 than yes.
My friend Ssgt in the Marine Corps lives today because the enemies chinese made AK-47 jammed.
As far as people getting shot with a AR-15, usually those guys who get hit should be hit by 1-3 rounds anyway.
They are at times on heavy drugs to keep fighting.
Considering your AK-47 heavily loses any accuracy to hit a target past 100 yrds, and can't sustain a long firefight I question this.
The AK-47 rounds weigh significantly more.
In a close range firefight that is compressed and needs rapid fire the AK-47 round is heavier.
A fully automatic AK-47 is devastating at close range, but can't sustain long fighting. Weighs more, is less accurate.
Give me a AR-15 any day. I can carry more rounds and be more accurate.
I would not knock the AK47 and all of its variations. I have buddies who have injuries because of that effective piece of hardware, and there are likely even some here on CalGuns who have lost friends in combat due to that particular weapon system. The AK47 can definitely be used during a prolonged engagement, even though it weighs more and is less accurate (when compared to an M16). Go ahead and ask the Marines who fought in Hue City (1968), Baghdad (2003), Falljuah (2004), or Hemland Province (2008): "Did the lackluster accuracy of the AK47 matter that much to you during engagements with the enemy?" I'll reckon not! Incoming enemy fire is still incoming enemy fire; and the only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire. The AK47 is a hardy weapon and nobody should doubt its effectiveness in a motivated enemy's hands. Remember: the most dangerous enemy is the one standing in front of you.

Both the M16/AR15 and the AK47 have their advantages and disadvantages. In the end, a gun is a tool and will only be as effective as the user wielding it. The shooter is first and foremost the most important element in the equation; everything else is secondary. I believe a person should stick to what they know how to use effectively, and what they can get their hands on if and when when the SHTF. Semper Fi! --1911ShooterPhil
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Last edited by 1911ShooterPhil; 03-27-2013 at 1:00 AM.. Reason: A gun is a tool...
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:16 AM
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My 2 cents. I swore by the AK as my SHTF choice for years due to the fact that it can be fired under any condition, cheap ammo(at the time) and easy operate and clean on the fly. I then realized how many people and agencies have the AR platform, plus not to mention the light weightness, and accessories galore. With my AR, I can go from a very defensive platform, to a long range platform in a few seconds.

But it doesn't really matter anymore since I lost all of mine out in the middle of the ocean, a very long, long time ago. However, I bet the AK is probably saltwater proof.
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Old 03-27-2013, 6:14 AM
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You have quite valid points,

The russian AK-47 fully Automatic, I can quite agree with the reliability and power. It is a well tested rifle and has proven to be highly effective.
Edit; I forgot to mention that I have little faith in a Chinese Made AK-47, but a solid russian made AK-47 yes.

The AR-15 platform when well maintained has proved to be a highly reliable, highly accurate, highly effective rifle.

I have personally gotten sand, grit, dirt, water in my M16A4 service rifle. It has jammed, double feeds, rounds get jammed between the bolt and the edge of the charging handle. Speaking from personal experience.
9/10 times that you have a issue with your rifle, its due to a bad magazine. Most of our magazines in the Marine Corps are old Army magazines and you hope and pray that you get a good one. All my crappy magazines I always turned in and got another one until I had some decent magazines.
I remember having two magazines, one would jam four times and the other two. Always a bad magazine.

I recently ran 3200 rounds through my AR-15, without cleaning it and allowing it to get filthy. The only jams I had came from one of my four magazines or when I used cheap wolf ammo during rapid firing. When I switched back to the brass remington ammunition the one magazine was all that jammed.
At 200 yrds I was able to pick off a nice tin can. At 300-360 yrds I was slamming the target within 3 inch groupings and at 500 yrds I was getting my shots on black.
Iron sites and 55 grain FMJ rounds.

Yes my rifle was dirty, but I had no catastrophic failures and I am a okay shot with iron sites up to 500 yrds as I have been trained to shoot.

I am sure the AK-47 is a very powerful and reliable weapon, for a shtf situation AR-15 or AK-47 are both excellent choices.

I guess it all comes down to person preference.
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Last edited by LCpl Kutches; 03-27-2013 at 7:44 AM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 2:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
.......Despite all this, the most commonly found carbine in the hands of US SOCOM personnel is still the M-4 block II (with the same ol' direct gas impingement system)..just saying...
That's not proof of anything since (except in rare cases) they simply use what is issued to them.
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Old 03-27-2013, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCpl Kutches View Post
....Most of our magazines in the Marine Corps are old Army magazines and you hope and pray that you get a good one.....
Things must have changed since I was in the Corps because even back in the hollow force era of the early 80s we had brand new in wrapper mags.
Quote:
.... At 300-360 yrds I was slamming the target within 3 inch groupings.....
Iron sites and 55 grain FMJ rounds.
What rifle are you using that is giving MOA performance with that ammo? Unless you meant within 3" of POA which would be a 6" circle.
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Old 03-27-2013, 3:27 PM
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That's not proof of anything since (except in rare cases) they simply use what is issued to them.
That is true When I joined I specifically asked for an STG 44 but they didn't give me one
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