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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:30 PM
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Default USFS LEO Harrasment

over the past 4 months I have had 2-3 interactions with USFS LEO's who have been informing both myself and other shooters using designated shooting area with felony arrest and or confiscation of high capacity magazines. One shooter did have his property confiscated. No receipt was given, and the whole situation did not feel legit.

This last incident cued me to investigate and print out the info on the DOJ website regarding the law. over the weekend I had 2 more interactions with one officer in Mendicino county who again made reference to arrest/confiscation. I provided him with the the information, which he insisted I was misinformed and in the wrong. He then had me go through my vehicle to show him the Bullet buttoned AR I had cased and secured in my truck along with mags that went along with the rifle.

I am wondering if it would now be appropriate to contact CG legal and see if they can provide support or contact the agency and provide clarification to eliminate future harrasment and illegal confiscation.

Suggestions?

EDIT

I will be contacting CG directly. I won't be posting or responding to this thread until I hear back from them. Thanks.
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Last edited by GillaFunk; 03-24-2013 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:37 PM
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Names, badge numbers?

4 interactions would be 3 more than I have had in 40 years, btw.
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:44 PM
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Understandable. Keep in mind, my non-discript truck has a shell, only one rifle is out at a time, I have a table set up with shooting bags spotting scope, and I have a chronograph out in use, I'm clean cut former military in well dressed attire, and use 'Sir'.

I don't look like a redneck or a hoodlum.

I have names, but not posting that info.
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:46 PM
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So ask CGF, since they will probably want more than a cool story.
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:48 PM
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One incident is just a contact, a 2nd contact made by the same LEO in one weekend sounds like you are getting harassed. I would brush off 1 contact, I live in a smaller town with only 6 different deputies, when I had a truck that stuckout like a sore thumb once in awhile they would pull me over (one of my license plate lights out) just to see who I was, once they checked my name I would never get pulled over by that guy again.
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
So ask CGF, since they will probably want more than a cool story.
Yeah.

We need time/date and officer/ranger names and a decent description of the situation. [In the past sometimes people don't tell us the whole story and there are other 'color' issues restraining us.]

We can't just have a lawyer call someone, "Hey, some of youse guys a coupla months ago somewhere did something wrong with some magazines."

Can't really ***** about things if you don't bother taking data to help things get fixed..
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:00 PM
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roger that.

Bill, I'll draft up an IR and PM it over to you. I honestly just wasn't sure whom I should contact. I'm also in contact with a fellow Cg shooter who is also
DFG and see how this turns out.

Thanks gents
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 PM
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roger that.

Bill, I'll draft up an IR and PM it over to you. I honestly just wasn't sure whom I should contact. I'm also in contact with a fellow Cg shooter who is also
DFG and see how this turns out.

Thanks gents
Please tell us first, privately, before you compromise the situation by talking to a DFGer (leak etc.) regardless of CG membership. Also, DFG has nothing really to do with USFS per se.

The real interest here is when Fed employees act illegally/ unconstitutionally on state matters they don't understand - we get to go to Fed court easily ;-)
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:06 PM
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who not whom.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:10 PM
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Hopefully you were not using those high capacity magazines in bullet button rifle. That is a felony.

Sometimes it's easier just to use a 10 round magazine even if you are in the right. It beats the heck out of getting arrested and having to lawyer up just to prove that you are right.

You don't need to answer this post.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:19 PM
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who not whom.
Either or, neither nor...
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:22 PM
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Paul, thanks for your input.

I'll be contacting Bill about this.

in the mean time, I am looking to set up a range clean-up in partnership with the Close nit group of CG guys in my area along with the USFS through the officer I interacted with today. if anything comes to fruition in the next 6 weeks I PM you to see if you would like to participate.

thanks Gents.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:23 PM
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Is this more a CA thing being harassed UFS LEOs ? I know somebody from work who once or twice a year goes shooting on some BLM land a number of miles outside of Reno and he & his shooting buddy have never had a problem.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
One shooter did have his property confiscated. No receipt was given, and the whole situation did not feel legit.
"... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by penguin0123 View Post
"... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

I am curious what you think due process means.
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Old 03-25-2013, 1:33 AM
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My understanding of CA law is that while possessing a high capacity magazine is NOT a crime or arrest-able offense in and of itself, the peace officer IS empowered to "confiscate" the 10+ round magazine for destruction as a 'public nuisance' without compensation or enumerated cause.
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Old 03-25-2013, 3:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
My understanding of CA law is that while possessing a high capacity magazine is NOT a crime or arrest-able offense in and of itself, the peace officer IS empowered to "confiscate" the 10+ round magazine for destruction as a 'public nuisance' without compensation or enumerated cause.
your understanding is wrong.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:18 AM
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This just incredible. One of the reasons I don't shoot on these lands. But, certainly anyone that does should unload the video camera from the vehicle before the firearms. Good luck with gettin this set right, Gilla.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwtt View Post
your understanding is wrong.
Courtesy MudCamper, from a different thread.


18010. (a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city
attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of,
importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale,
giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a
nuisance under any of the following provisions:

(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:43 AM
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your understanding is wrong.
Which part is wrong?
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
I am curious what you think due process means.
It is my understanding that the due process clause is four parts:
  1. Procedural due process
  2. Substantive due process
  3. prohibition against vague laws
  4. incorporation of Bill of Rights

I would argue that the first part is violated with confiscation and no receipt. Even a traffic citation is really an arrest followed by a release on own recognizance with the promise to appear in court (if you want to go to traffic school, you need to go before a judge; paying the fine is to enter a guilty plea). If the Man takes anything from you (be it life, liberty, or property), they need to arrest you, charge you with something, and you have a right to trial. If the person whose property is confiscated (as mentioned in the post) was indeed charged with something, then the magazines become evidence. By not giving a receipt, I am inclined to believe the chain of custody is broken and inadmissible.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but let me know if my concepts are wrong.
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin0123 View Post
It is my understanding that the due process clause is four parts:
  1. Procedural due process
  2. Substantive due process
  3. prohibition against vague laws
  4. incorporation of Bill of Rights

I would argue that the first part is violated with confiscation and no receipt. Even a traffic citation is really an arrest followed by a release on own recognizance with the promise to appear in court (if you want to go to traffic school, you need to go before a judge; paying the fine is to enter a guilty plea). If the Man takes anything from you (be it life, liberty, or property), they need to arrest you, charge you with something, and you have a right to trial. If the person whose property is confiscated (as mentioned in the post) was indeed charged with something, then the magazines become evidence. By not giving a receipt, I am inclined to believe the chain of custody is broken and inadmissible.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but let me know if my concepts are wrong.
How hilarious. This poor soul still thinks we live in a free country.
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:28 AM
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Hmmm, interesting. I approached a USFS lawperson this fall and asked specifically about shooting. They said I could shoot anywhere out in the woods (with exceptions around campsites, of course) as long as I was safe, cleaned up after myself (almost impossible to find all the ejected brass from a Mini14!!!), and didn't drive where I wasn't supposed to. They didn't discuss prohibited firearms or equipment at all. They didn't seem too concerned about me at the time (I even had some standard capacity magazines with me).

Just my 2-cents.
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:46 AM
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one must keep in mind: you are always wrong, even when you are right...

in the end, KNOWING your rights, may NOT matter...
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin0123 View Post
"... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
I am curious what you think due process means.

Quote:
due process


1: a course of formal proceedings (as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles —called also procedural due process


2: a judicial requirement that enacted laws may not contain provisions that result in the unfair, arbitrary, or unreasonable treatment of an individual —called also substantive due process

*Due process requires that evidence not be admitted when it is obtained through illegal methods.


Paul,
Is there a reason you are arguing this point?

Those whose standard cap mags are confiscated without receipt are in fact deprived of due process.
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Originally Posted by EM2
Put you link where your opinion is.
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
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Paul,
Is there a reason you are arguing this point?

Those whose standard cap mags are confiscated without receipt are in fact deprived of due process.
I haven't started to argue, I was wondering what some people's concept of due process is.

It is apparent that laws passed by our elected officials that allow confiscation of nuisances provide due process, no matter how literal one chooses to be, because it is happening. It might be a perfect issue for a lawsuit and a trip to SCOTUS, I don't know.

I don't like it, but I leave the standard caps at home.
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:14 AM
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All shooters on public lands should carry video and audio devices (smartphones or small digital audio recorders) and use them if contacted by authorities regarding these issues.

Recording the interaction is your right. Do not consent to seaches of your vehicle or equipment bags.

Also, be the type of shooter who does not litter or destroy anything you are not willing to haul out. This means tv's and computers and other sh*t.
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
Names, badge numbers?

4 interactions would be 3 more than I have had in 40 years, btw.


the forest service leo's at least in my area (el dorado) is a relatively new developement (2-3 years now). these are not forest rangers. many of the old logging roads that have been open for over 100 years are now closed now and there is a high presence of the sort of officers that one would think could not easily get hired in a lot of places. iv'e only heard second hand about the stops but one involved my buddy and his young son on a quad with holsters on and pistols stowed in the trunk unloaded. they were searched and questioned as to where the pistols came from and how long he had owned them.
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwtt View Post
your understanding is wrong.
Sir,

Post #20 provided a citation to Penal Code section 18010(a) which allows prosecuting authorities to file civil actions to seize large capacity magazines.

Here is the text of 18010(b). This section better applies to LEOs and does allow for the seizure and summary destruction without having to file a court action.
"(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary
destruction whenever found within the state." (with the same reference to large capacity magazines.)
The above posts make some good arguments about whether this law meets the requirements of "Due Process." My personal opinion is that is does not. But that is a battle that has not yet been fought and the winner not yet known.

For the present, Penal Code section 18010 still stands.
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
It is apparent that laws passed by our elected officials that allow confiscation of nuisances provide due process, no matter how literal one chooses to be, because it is happening. It might be a perfect issue for a lawsuit and a trip to SCOTUS, I don't know.

I don't like it, but I leave the standard caps at home.
I believe due process = your day in court. If the LEO confiscate on the spot with no recourse (no receipt to prove this happened leaves you nowhere to go), then you have the enforcement branch acting as judiciary. Not to mention you were effectively deprived of counsel.

When SCOTUS let 7th circuit decision stand on the Illinois Eavesdropping Act (ACLU v Alvarez), it all but affirmed the right of citizens to record LEO (when they are performing their public duties) as being protected by 1A. Don't let any LEO tell you otherwise. If they forcably separate you and your recording device, it just adds fat to the fire.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
How hilarious. This poor soul still thinks we live in a free country.
I feel your pain. But I refuse to believe the "last best hope on Earth" has indeed sunk this low.

Last edited by penguin0123; 03-25-2013 at 9:40 AM..
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
I believe due process = your day in court.
I believe stuff that isn't true, also.
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:51 AM
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USFS...not surprising. This is the same department that continues to sell "Adventure Passes" at $5/day to park on public land and write tickets for noncompliance even though the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that they could do neither. (BTW, those tickets aren't enforceable, so just ignore the signs and throw away the "tickets". They can't come after you like the DOT can for unpaid parking tickets.)
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
USFS...not surprising. This is the same department that continues to sell "Adventure Passes" at $5/day to park on public land and write tickets for noncompliance even though the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that they could do neither. (BTW, those tickets aren't enforceable, so just ignore the signs and throw away the "tickets". They can't come after you like the DOT can for unpaid parking tickets.)
I was wondering about that and why the passes are still being sold.

They must figure if people are uniformed enough to keep buying them they will keep selling them.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
USFS...not surprising. This is the same department that continues to sell "Adventure Passes" at $5/day to park on public land and write tickets for noncompliance even though the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that they could do neither. (BTW, those tickets aren't enforceable, so just ignore the signs and throw away the "tickets". They can't come after you like the DOT can for unpaid parking tickets.)
Pray tell. I'm not too much of an outdoorsy person, so I'm not familiar with this. What is this "Adventure Pass" you speak of? The park admission fee at national parks?
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:08 AM
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Pray tell. I'm not too much of an outdoorsy person, so I'm not familiar with this. What is this "Adventure Pass" you speak of? The park admission fee at national parks?
It is a Socal parking permit.

The Angelinos are easily cowed.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by stonefly-2 View Post
the forest service leo's at least in my area (el dorado) is a relatively new developement (2-3 years now). these are not forest rangers. many of the old logging roads that have been open for over 100 years are now closed now and there is a high presence of the sort of officers that one would think could not easily get hired in a lot of places. iv'e only heard second hand about the stops but one involved my buddy and his young son on a quad with holsters on and pistols stowed in the trunk unloaded. they were searched and questioned as to where the pistols came from and how long he had owned them.
I noticed this also. I was shocked at the concentration of LEOs, Rangers and other government employees we ran into in the El Dorado national forest. One was very nice and helpful, the rest made us feel like subjects and it was not a pleasant experience. It was so bad that a couple of friends vowed to never go back.I guess they are accomplishing their goal.
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Courtesy MudCamper, from a different thread.


18010. (a) The Attorney General, district attorney, or city
attorney may bring an action to enjoin the manufacture of,
importation of, keeping for sale of, offering or exposing for sale,
giving, lending, or possession of, any item that constitutes a
nuisance under any of the following provisions:

(20) Section 32390, relating to a large-capacity magazine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Sir,

Post #20 provided a citation to Penal Code section 18010(a) which allows prosecuting authorities to file civil actions to seize large capacity magazines.

Here is the text of 18010(b). This section better applies to LEOs and does allow for the seizure and summary destruction without having to file a court action.
"(b) These weapons shall be subject to confiscation and summary
destruction whenever found within the state." (with the same reference to large capacity magazines.)
The above posts make some good arguments about whether this law meets the requirements of "Due Process." My personal opinion is that is does not. But that is a battle that has not yet been fought and the winner not yet known.

For the present, Penal Code section 18010 still stands.

From a previous post by Brandon aka wildhawker:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
I was advised at CCW class to NOT carry mags over ten rounds, even if you have legal ones that are larger. Why? Because of this.

YES it is illegal. But....
YES you will get arrested;
YES you can lose your CCW;
YES you may get cleared in court, but
YES it will cost you time, money, and heartache to do it.
What complete and utter garbage information. Tell whoever told you that to call Jason Davis and that CGF will pick up the tab for their education just so they stop spreading nonsense at their classes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDay View Post
Are you guys suing the state over the 10+ round magazine summary destruction as a nuisance law? Seems like this would be the better route to go instead of suing individual cities.

http://law.justia.com/codes/californ...0-32390/32390/
You're misreading the PC like City of Los Angeles is:

Quote:
32390. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any large-capacity magazine is a
nuisance and is subject to Section 18010.
However:

Quote:
16005. Nothing in the Deadly Weapons Recodification Act of 2010 is
intended to substantively change the law relating to deadly weapons.
The act is intended to be entirely nonsubstantive in effect. Every
provision of this part, of Title 2 (commencing with Section 12001) of
Part 4, and every other provision of this act, including, without
limitation, every cross-reference in every provision of the act,
shall be interpreted consistent with the nonsubstantive intent of the
act.


I won't discuss strategy here beyond reiterating what we told Los Angeles at its public hearing:
The people have a fundamental right to keep and bear firearms for self-defense, including those in common use which use magazines having a capacity of greater than 10 rounds.

Any outright ban on the possession of magazines is a violation of the Second Amendment.

If Los Angeles passes any outright ban on the possession of magazines within its jurisdiction, The Calguns Foundation and Cal-FFL will, along with taxpaying residents of LA, sue the City for civil rights violations in federal court and take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary.

We will absolutely not accept LA scapegoating tens of thousands of law abiding gun owners and retailers in Los Angeles, and countless travelers and visitors, for the evil and insane acts of a few criminals.
-Brandon
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
USFS...not surprising. This is the same department that continues to sell "Adventure Passes" at $5/day to park on public land and write tickets for noncompliance even though the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that they could do neither. (BTW, those tickets aren't enforceable, so just ignore the signs and throw away the "tickets". They can't come after you like the DOT can for unpaid parking tickets.)
The case in question deals with people who do not use the "amenities" set up by the government.

If you pull over and have a picnic in the woods, and pee against a tree, no fee.

If you pull over and have a picnic using a government provided picnic table, and then use the government provided bathroom, you are subject to a fee.

Only those who don't use any amenities can park their car, hike in the woods, camp in undeveloped areas, etc., can legally do so without paying a fee.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
I noticed this also. I was shocked at the concentration of LEOs, Rangers and other government employees we ran into in the El Dorado national forest. One was very nice and helpful, the rest made us feel like subjects and it was not a pleasant experience. It was so bad that a couple of friends vowed to never go back.I guess they are accomplishing their goal.
google "kenny marcus el dorado" i guess this has been going on for longer than the 2-3 years i thought. lots on his act here on calguns also.
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Old 03-25-2013, 1:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
The case in question deals with people who do not use the "amenities" set up by the government.

If you pull over and have a picnic in the woods, and pee against a tree, no fee.

If you pull over and have a picnic using a government provided picnic table, and then use the government provided bathroom, you are subject to a fee.

Only those who don't use any amenities can park their car, hike in the woods, camp in undeveloped areas, etc., can legally do so without paying a fee.
Is this statewide? At National Forests only? Or at state parks and recreation areas as well? And how do you get by the gate guard charging a fee to enter and park?
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