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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:00 AM
calgunsgazpacho calgunsgazpacho is offline
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Default DHS hoarding ammo and rifles

Please read the article and then comment:http://rt.com/usa/us-homeland-securi...-congress-703/

This crap really concerns me. Its cool that we have some people in congress and even Forbes magazine asking some real questions about this.

I'll quote the beginning of the article so you know where its going, "The Department of Homeland Security has plans to buy enough ammunition to fight the equivalent of a 24-year Iraq War – on US territory – and even US congressmen don’t understand why."

According to the article even the "Social Security Administration has reportedly purchased 174,000 hollow-point bullets."

I want to thank Californian Congressman Doug LaMalfa who along with 14 other House members are demanding answers from the DHS.
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:06 AM
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Latest I heard from the Drudge Report yesterday is that DHS is denying buying all that ammo and that some of the purchase contracts had language that listed for "up to" a certain amount over the next five years and it was for training ammunition, etc. etc but I don't believe a word of it, myself.. http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...ition-purchase

Last edited by dominic; 03-24-2013 at 9:09 AM..
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  #3  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:08 AM
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News from the Russians? Really?
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:11 AM
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News from the Russians? Really?
huh?
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  #5  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:15 AM
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Whoa? Russians? Glad I didn't click on that link then?

BTW, OP I just noticed you have one of that jerk Lalo Alcarez's cartoons in your avatar. You know he is a racist liberal don't you? Here is an example of his anti-gun sentiments:

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  #6  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:15 AM
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Cool link and thanks for input. It does lend to some understanding of the issue. However I noticed the following so it sounds like a mixed bag.
"One solicitation by the agency—for training centers and law enforcement personnel—was for "up to" 750 million rounds of training ammunition over the next five years, DHS spokesman Peter Boogaard told Whispers."

"Another five-year contract allows for the purchase of "up to" 450 million rounds of ammunition, he said, and was also for law enforcement. Boogaard noted that the contract would be used by all DHS agencies except the Coast Guard.
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  #7  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:17 AM
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[QUOTE=dominic;10900488]Whoa? Russians? Glad I didn't click on that link then?

BTW, OP I just noticed you have one of that jerk Lalo Alcarez's cartoons in your avatar. You know he is a racist liberal don't you? Here is an example of his anti-gun sentiments:

Off topic but thats not why I own guns. so lol
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  #8  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:26 AM
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huh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rt.com
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  #9  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:28 AM
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Off topic but thats not why I own guns. so lol
Oh, OK. So why are you concerned that the DHS (the govt.) is buying "up to" 1.6 billion rounds of ammo then? Just asking, especially since you don't own guns because you expect to have to defend yourself from a govt' that may try to take away your freedoms with those same 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition that you originally posted about. I'm sure that DHS isn't going to use that against anyone opposing their policies. Of course not.
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  #10  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by calgunsgestapo View Post
CalGunners hoarding Tinfoil.
Fixed that for you.

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  #11  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:46 AM
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DHS purchase order for training ammo in my sig link... read the Request to Purchase and the min/max quantities.... I'd google the delivery address too in Glycon, GA. :tfh:
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:49 AM
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With any kind of luck, all that ammo will wind up as surplus one day.
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:07 PM
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Billions of rounds of hollow point ammunition (for training!!!) and 2,700 MRAPs. They are currently preparing for all out 2A confiscation and or a large scale occupation of the US.
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Old 03-24-2013, 1:35 PM
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I initially dismissed this too but this article does raise some interesting points (with links):

http://www.infowars.com/government-c...buys-implodes/

For example, are hollow points really the most cost effecitive choice for training?
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2013, 1:47 PM
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Goonie goo goo

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  #16  
Old 03-24-2013, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Waffleobill View Post
Billions of rounds of hollow point ammunition (for training!!!) and 2,700 MRAPs. They are currently preparing for all out 2A confiscation and or a large scale occupation of the US.



Good luck with that.....
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2013, 2:08 PM
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This is complete Tinfoil Hat stuff and beneath us. What's more, it's been de-bunked numerous times. See link below for good analysis.

Always amazes me that people jump to conclusions and seem incapable of even basic research. Please stop posting this garbage.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520469

Last edited by Calplinker; 03-24-2013 at 2:11 PM..
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  #18  
Old 03-24-2013, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Calplinker View Post
This is complete Tinfoil Hat stuff and beneath us. What's more, it's been de-bunked numerous times. See link below for good analysis.

Always amazes me that people jump to conclusions and seem incapable of even basic research. Please stop posting this garbage.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520469
A forum link to a Denver Post link with three paragraphs. The key paragraph is the third of the three:

Quote:
The government's explanation is less sinister. Federal solicitations to buy the ammo are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Here is what Steve Watson noted of this explanation:

Quote:
The source of the claim that concerns over the bullet buys are a conspiracy theory or “misleading,” is a February 14 Associated Press report which did not conduct any actual investigation into why the DHS was purchasing the ammo, instead regurgitating a statement from DHS official Peggy Dixon, who claimed the bullets were bought in bulk to save money and were for training purposes only.

As we have tirelessly noted, however, hollow point bullets are completely unsuitable for training purposes because they cost significantly more money compared to standard firing range bullets. In one fell swoop, this fact debunks claims that the agency was attempting to save money argument and is intending to use the ammo in training exercises.

Military veterans and ammunition experts have also confirmed that they have never used hollow points for training purposes, expressing confusion at why the DHS is buying up so many of them.
I'm all for debunking tin foil hat conspiracy theories but do it right.
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  #19  
Old 03-24-2013, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dominic View Post
Latest I heard from the Drudge Report .... and it was for training ammunition, etc]
I thought I read on Drudge not too long ago that a lot of the ammo was sniper stuff.
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Old 03-24-2013, 4:52 PM
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If we are buying/hoarding ammo, Id sure like to see where its going.

We have already cut-down significantly on our range day training. Thats fine for those of us that are "proficient" and those us that can hit our target. Not so good for those that are border line and baaarely pass. Do I feel safe knowing that the guy with me has issues hitting a body target at 15 ft away -uhhh no I sure dont.

Training ammo is no longer given for after hours practice. Im fine with that. It doesnt help those that REALLY do want the ammo for practice, and we arent suppost to use any other ammo in our pistols OTHER than what we are issued... so ...

We have even cutback on training that used sim rounds ..
M4 drills/training cutback
shotgun drill/training cutback
Other rifle/pistol drill/training cutback
overall cutback on all training requiring ammo

Our storage facility that was once full of ammo, is almost empty - or simply moved to a secret squirrl location

Those at the academy DO have lots of range time. I would not be surprised if a bulk of the ammo is going to FLETC.

Edit: I have not read the article you linked yet.
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  #21  
Old 03-24-2013, 4:57 PM
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Could all this ammo buying be occuring just to remove it from OUR shelves? So we don't have access?
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  #22  
Old 03-24-2013, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffleobill View Post
Billions of rounds of hollow point ammunition (for training!!!) and 2,700 MRAPs. They are currently preparing for all out 2A confiscation and or a large scale occupation of the US.
The MRAPs are not for the DHS. They are an order from the Navy and Marines. Stop being such a drone repeating stuff you read on the Interwebs.

And those billion of rounds? Don't you guys do any shooting once in a while? Do some math.

Enough with the paranoia, people. This is the kind of thread that makes us look like nuts.
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Old 03-24-2013, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post

Enough with the paranoia, people.

Paranoids are people too. You'd be paranoid if everyone was out to get you too.
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Old 03-24-2013, 6:14 PM
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Paranoids are people too. You'd be paranoid if everyone was out to get you too.
And maybe they are. But I also subscribe to Occam's Razor.
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:26 PM
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DHS includes the coast guard, the Border Patrol, air marshals. What, you want want them you only by 8 rounds a year per armed agent (over 5 years that would be 8 million rounds by itself). 1.6 billion is completely reasonable.
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:35 PM
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No if you took the time to read any above links you would have read that they don't need anywhere near 1 billion rounds of ammo. They use a little more than 100,000,000 per year for all departments you mentioned plus a few more.

I find it quite interesting their timing to potentially acquire up to 1 billion rounds of ammo (for 2013) at a time like this when they have shown that 1/10 of that annually will suffice.

Look, at the very least the demand raises prices on ammo for all of us and that really sux.

Last edited by calgunsgazpacho; 03-24-2013 at 8:38 PM..
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  #27  
Old 03-24-2013, 8:48 PM
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wouldnt it be ironic if a bunch of stereotype weirdo hoarders, preppers, and gun owners ran the DHS and they were simply doing what every prepper probably wishes they could do?
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:52 PM
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I really wish all the idjits that don't understand much about long term purchase contract to avoid inflation (like airlines do) - without actual delivery of product all at once - would instead worry themselves about activism here in California against bad gun laws.

Y'all are easy to get baited into relatively nonworrisome concerns while they pull the wool over your eyes (see: "California Constitutional Sheriffs").
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgunsgestapo View Post
No if you took the time to read any above links you would have read that they don't need anywhere near 1 billion rounds of ammo. They use a little more than 100,000,000 per year for all departments you mentioned plus a few more.

I find it quite interesting their timing to potentially acquire up to 1 billion rounds of ammo (for 2013) at a time like this when they have shown that 1/10 of that annually will suffice.

Look, at the very least the demand raises prices on ammo for all of us and that really sux.
Source?

If that is true, they are not practicing enough
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:38 PM
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https://www.facebook.com/notes/terry...51339181433869
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Voting for Donald Trump is the protest vote against: Keynesian economics, Neocon wars, exporting jobs, open borders, Washington criminal cartel, too big to fail banks and too big to jail pols and banksters.

Cutting off foreign aid to EVERY country and dismantling the police/surveillance state!

Umm yeah!!!!!
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Old 03-25-2013, 5:21 AM
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If you take the top of the ceiling for the ordered rounds, break it down for rounds per year (because the contract is for 5 years), and then break it down to all 200k (ish) people employed by DHS, it works out to less than 500 rounds per yer, per person. I hardly think that's excessive. I go through 500 rounds in a weekend.

And yeah, they're all hollow points... but isn't the purpose of practive to train with what you shoot? Makes sense to me.

And it's not a billion rounds. It was like 1.4 million.
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Old 03-25-2013, 6:00 AM
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Originally Posted by calgunsgestapo View Post
According to the article even the "Social Security Administration has reportedly purchased 174,000 hollow-point bullets."
Well, I guess THEY plan on staying, "socially secure!"

It's the Der Kommissar ObamassarKare "cure-for-what-ails-ya'"... AFTER you develop health problems & have started collecting SSI!
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Old 03-25-2013, 6:49 AM
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DHS has only awarded purchase contracts for about 400,000 rounds since the beginning of this year, even though there are solicitations out there for higher numbers.
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  #34  
Old 03-25-2013, 7:25 AM
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
DHS includes the coast guard, the Border Patrol, air marshals. What, you want want them you only by 8 rounds a year per armed agent (over 5 years that would be 8 million rounds by itself). 1.6 billion is completely reasonable.
Including the Coast Guard, the DHS employs 220,000 people. That includes agents and officers, but also administrative assistants, clerks, janitorial staff and cooks.

They have open orders for at least 1,600,000,000 rounds ( 1.6 Billion) of mostly hollow point ammunition. (Actually, it is closer to 2 billion if you add up what contracts were open before the stories broke).

This works out to 9500 rounds per employee, counting even the clerks and janitors.

The contracts are IDIQ (indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity), which are essentially purchase options. The period is 4 years on each contract.

It is true that it isn't a contract to deliver that much. However, it does leave them completely open with no further contract processes, to simply pick up the phone and order some or all of it, at any time.

Honestly, I don't see justification for this. Either they have a procurement process that is run amok (entirely probable) or they are gearing up for civil unrest (seemingly possible since it seems to be a recurring theme if you read what DHS seems to talk about internally). Most likely, both, some gearing up, some purchasing run amok.

The MRAPS question is a weird one, the story seems to have been denied, but they did order all kinds of armored guard shacks and oodles and oodles of other stuff to set up hardened compounds and buildings.

Best part of course, is the high quality of answers that we're getting from the government.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:58 AM
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It also works out to a little over 1800 rounds per year for each of those, IF the contract is FULLY filled. (1,600,000,000 / 4 / 220,000) And DHS also contracts additional entities outside of the government. But for grins and giggles... if only 1/2 of those people use/train with guns, and there were no outside contracter support, then you're looking at 3600 rounds per person, per year.

Is that excessive? Anybody on this board shoot that many rounds in a year?

100 rounds a week is already putting you at 5200 rounds in a year....

Last edited by kalimus; 03-25-2013 at 8:01 AM..
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  #37  
Old 03-25-2013, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
I really wish all the idjits that don't understand much about long term purchase contract to avoid inflation (like airlines do) - without actual delivery of product all at once - would instead worry themselves about activism here in California against bad gun laws.
Thank you Bill. It's amazing how many people on Calguns fail to realize just how many agencies are under the fold of the DHS. Plus how many fail to understand government purchasing policies.
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  #38  
Old 03-25-2013, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
I really wish all the idjits that don't understand much about long term purchase contract to avoid inflation (like airlines do) - without actual delivery of product all at once - would instead worry themselves about activism here in California against bad gun laws.

Y'all are easy to get baited into relatively nonworrisome concerns while they pull the wool over your eyes (see: "California Constitutional Sheriffs").
+1 on this. There are some real loons out there, including on this site.

The idiot at InfoWars writes that "A Marine veteran says they never trained with hollow points".

Well this is no surprise since our military does not use them AT ALL. They are banned under the Hague convention and have been for over 100 years.

Once again, basic research would reveal this, but people seem to be dead set on finding some conspiracy.

Why do I care if they buy 2 billion rounds of ammunition, or 10 billion?
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Old 03-25-2013, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calplinker View Post
Why do I care if they buy 2 billion rounds of ammunition, or 10 billion?
Because it creates shortages and inflates prices on our side of the fence.
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  #40  
Old 03-25-2013, 9:51 AM
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Enough about the MRAPs. Stop getting your news off Infowars or other conspiracy websites. That makes you look like ill-educated dimwits. You're just parroting what you heard from other idiots and you want to believe it because that fits your little conspiracy theories about government takeovers along with U.N. black helicopters.

The irony is that the real information is out there. But most conspiracy theorists are just lazy high school dropouts living with their moms. It's much easier to pick up some other dude's ramblings rather than doing some actual investigative work which might require phone calls, writing emails or letters, speaking to real experts, or even getting out of the house. Gee.

Here is the contract for the vehicles in question:
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/con...ontractid=4701

They're for the Navy and the Marines. Big whoop.


We have real challenges RIGHT NOW in Sacramento and San Francisco. That's what you should be really worried about.
__________________
WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat.

Last edited by a1c; 03-25-2013 at 9:54 AM..
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