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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-23-2013, 3:54 PM
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Default New meme trial balloon; It was good for the jews that they were disarmed..

Just when you thought that the anti-civil rights folks couldn't go any lower...

This just in:

" 'Objectively, it might have made things worse' if the Jews who fought the Nazis in the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in Poland had more and better guns, said historian Steve Paulsson, an expert on the period whose Jewish family survived the city's destruction."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130323/DA56UDC02.html

Oy vey
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  #2  
Old 03-23-2013, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by smogcity View Post
Just when you thought that the anti-civil rights folks couldn't go any lower...

This just in:

" 'Objectively, it might have made things worse' if the Jews who fought the Nazis in the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in Poland had more and better guns, said historian Steve Paulsson, an expert on the period whose Jewish family survived the city's destruction."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130323/DA56UDC02.html

Oy vey
There is no way to accurrately describe how clueless this guy is.......
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Old 03-23-2013, 4:34 PM
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How can DEAD be any worse?

I guess the Bielski Brothers made things worse by saving People from certain Death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans
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Old 03-23-2013, 4:56 PM
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How can any person with a brain argue that resisting genocide is worse than doing nothing?
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Old 03-23-2013, 4:59 PM
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Hitler... the great Gun-Rights dictator! LOL

The guy who wrote this seems to think that since Hitler only took guns from the minority, that it had no adverse affects... you know, other than that whole "leading sheep to the slaughter" thing that was the holocaust.
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Old 03-23-2013, 5:02 PM
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Might Have.

Remember that phrase.
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  #7  
Old 03-23-2013, 5:19 PM
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Hitler expanded gun rights! The author says so! The jews were so outnumbered no amount of guns would have mattered. Resisting only prolonged imprisonment before an untimely gas chamber demise. What a scumbag. He is standing up for Hitler!
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Old 03-23-2013, 5:25 PM
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<sarcasm> Objectively, Hitler's ban on free speech had no effects since there were so many dedicated Nazis. Given that fact, let us repeal the first amendment. </sarcasm>
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  #9  
Old 03-23-2013, 5:57 PM
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here's an SFGate article on this: http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/articl...te-4378784.php
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  #10  
Old 03-23-2013, 6:00 PM
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What an idiot. If the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto had been better armed, they likely could have held out for longer, and at the very least they could have taken more Nazis with them on their way out. It's absolutely repulsive to say that they would have been better off being an easier target for mass extermination.
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:02 PM
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It will be real hard asking for an opinion from 6 million plus jews that were affected by these policies.
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:07 PM
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They were removed from their homes, stripped of their possessions, used for medical experiments, tortured, enslaved, and killed. How much worse could it have got?
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:15 PM
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He is a disgrace to the human race....
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:27 PM
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the sad part is that there are many citizens (read: voters) who will not see how falacious the (supposedly "objective") argument is, and will simply read it and swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Many deceived voters will simply get this out of his reprehensible statement: "gee... it's better not to be armed and fight back, because that just makes whoever is trying to hurt you mad and they could hurt you worse." It's like, "don't resist a bully, he'll just get made and might hit you harder." Instead of, "resist the bully, and kick his butt, or at least go down trying." I can only think of one quote to respond with: "ya can't fix stupid". I'm afraid the majority are either unwilling or unable to stand up against evil.
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Old 03-23-2013, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smogcity View Post
Just when you thought that the anti-civil rights folks couldn't go any lower...

This just in:

" 'Objectively, it might have made things worse' if the Jews who fought the Nazis in the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in Poland had more and better guns, said historian Steve Paulsson, an expert on the period whose Jewish family survived the city's destruction."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130323/DA56UDC02.html

Oy vey
Yep... reminds me of when the Iraq war started and the party line was war never solved anything. There was article about how little the revolutionary war actually accomplished. Just look at Australia. Worked out fine for them without a war.
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Old 03-23-2013, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
How can DEAD be any worse?

I guess the Bielski Brothers made things worse by saving People from certain Death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans
Yeah; and in a lot of ways going down fighting (re: loosing) the ba*tards sounds better than being starved and worked to death....
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  #17  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:01 PM
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Pacifists always know better no? At least the Partisan resistance wasn't so quick to take on that view.
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Old 03-23-2013, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
How can DEAD be any worse?

I guess the Bielski Brothers made things worse by saving People from certain Death.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans
Good movie! Difiance!
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  #19  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:12 PM
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At the very most one could argue that they would have lost anyways...but be worse off? What is he smoking?

This wasn't merely forced slavery and oppression. It was that. But it was also managed killing of their whole race. In principle one can argue in most cases where there is an injustice or an unjust aggressor that the possibility of victory must be weighed before resisting, as well as the likelihood of making things worse (e.g. does killing a tyrant lead to a worse tyrant in his place?)

But in such an extreme, where the agressor isn't seeking contested land, or tribute money, but to exterminate you, that principle doesn't apply. It is like a limit in Calculus. The lesser the evil you are presented by not resisting, the greater your chances of winning, and the greater the probability of actual improvement must be. Conversely, the greater the evil you face, the less you need to weigh those. And at that end, those considerations reduce to 0

I suppose one could argue that, if you knew you were a dead man, that fighting wouldn't save you or anyone you were trying to protect, you could (thinking of this as a Christian) lay down your life and pray for your assailants rather than spilling blood. But as far as natural justice goes I think you would be justified in taking as many with you as you can. If not merely because, at that point they are evil and deserve retributive justice, but also because the more it costs the enemy, even if you lose, the less they can harm another group or populace. Maybe, just maybe, too a violent resistance can lead them to hesitate before doing the same evil elsewhere. It may draw attention to the evil. In the context here, it could divert resources from the front, speeding the end of the war. It may be over for you, but that doesn't mean it is pointless to fight.
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  #20  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:50 PM
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Lets look a little closer to America.

The Japanese internment tells us the government is capable of not living the constitution and taking from American citizens their God given rights as well as any protection the constitution stands for.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo...n-who-veterans

12% of the US population is veterans the lowest percentage per state is you guessed it New York.

These veterans are the Sheep Dogs that are willing to die for the flock ask a liberal Socialist what they are willing to do for the population.

Ask college students to level load the grades so that everybody gets a c we just take from the A and B students to level things out.

America is in trouble only time and action will tell how it comes out.
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  #21  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:06 PM
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Realistically the Jewish peoples in the ghettos would have died either way. The question is would one rather go out fighting or in a Zyclon B shower?

The author is a putz.
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimber_ss View Post
Pacifists always know better no? At least the Partisan resistance wasn't so quick to take on that view.
Well yes, it would seem so.

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:43 PM
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There just are no words for how absolutely brain dead this author is. The obvious has already been stated. There is no way that a member of the armed resistance could have gotten killed more because they resisted than would have in the showers without a gun. I'd personally prefer a mortal bullet wound after feeling the recoil from my rifle and watching at least one or two stormtroopers drop from my bullets - than from my lungs full of pesticide.

Moreover let's not forget also that heir Hitler not only led the jews down the merry path to death, he led Germany to destruction as well. Perhaps if Germany experienced a widespread guerilla led slaughter of their master-race sons they, like we did in Nam, might have said 'enough' before theythemselves were soundly blown to hell by the allies.

To me the very premise of suggesting that arming Jews would result in something worse than happened just BEGS for a Monty Python like video to be made... the premise is SO inane that you could do a lot with it...
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:58 PM
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To me the very premise of suggesting that arming Jews would result in something worse than happened just BEGS for a Monty Python like video to be made... the premise is SO inane that you could do a lot with it...
I'm waiting for South Park to come back on air. There is no way they'll let something as juicy as this 2A fight go to waste.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:02 PM
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Redistribution of wealth seems to be a hot topic right now. Action is always better than inaction. This researcher has fallen into some common argumentative fallacies that many will adhere to because they have never lived without security. All we can do is speak louder and more authoritatively to counteract this dribble.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:12 PM
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:38 PM
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I've got my asbestos hazmat suit on, I'm a bit at loose ends for a few moments, so I may as well dive in on one small particular annoyance related to this whole Hitler gun control fandango.

Almost all the Jews and other Holocaust victims were not Germans. Whatever gun control the Nazis instigated against German Jews had nothing to do with the Warsaw uprising. The author says that, and yet most of the rants here ignore it, turn a willful blind eye to that, going on about gun controllers everywhere, about Nazis, about the Warsaw ghetto, on and on.

Why not rant about the Polish government's gun control measures, whatever they were? Or rant about the German and Russian occupation armies and whatever gun control the brought with them? Why waste so much bile on something unrelated? Haven't you got anything more topical?

Jehosaphat it gets a bit much. This thread was Godwined right from the start, but it's one of the first threads I've seen in which almost every single post continues the Godwinning.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:52 PM
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I would rather go down fighting and found in a pile of brass than to be tortured, worked to death or gassed.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
I've got my asbestos hazmat suit on, I'm a bit at loose ends for a few moments, so I may as well dive in on one small particular annoyance related to this whole Hitler gun control fandango.

Almost all the Jews and other Holocaust victims were not Germans. Whatever gun control the Nazis instigated against German Jews had nothing to do with the Warsaw uprising. The author says that, and yet most of the rants here ignore it, turn a willful blind eye to that, going on about gun controllers everywhere, about Nazis, about the Warsaw ghetto, on and on.

Why not rant about the Polish government's gun control measures, whatever they were? Or rant about the German and Russian occupation armies and whatever gun control the brought with them? Why waste so much bile on something unrelated? Haven't you got anything more topical?

Jehosaphat it gets a bit much. This thread was Godwined right from the start, but it's one of the first threads I've seen in which almost every single post continues the Godwinning.
Yeah - Nobody ever talks about the positive benefits of genocide....

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Old 03-24-2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by compulsivegunbuyer View Post
They were removed from their homes, stripped of their possessions, used for medical experiments, tortured, enslaved, and killed. How much worse could it have got?
Water boarding?
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:44 AM
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Given the previous discussion, I don't believe this is too graphic.

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Old 03-24-2013, 1:15 AM
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What could be worse than 6 million jews and 20 million people total dying? This is as bad as holocaust denial in that, if believed and acted upon, it could set up conditions for a repeat of history.
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Old 03-24-2013, 3:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smogcity View Post
Just when you thought that the anti-civil rights folks couldn't go any lower...

This just in:

" 'Objectively, it might have made things worse' if the Jews who fought the Nazis in the 1943 Warsaw ghetto uprising in Poland had more and better guns, said historian Steve Paulsson, an expert on the period whose Jewish family survived the city's destruction."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130323/DA56UDC02.html

Oy vey
I choose to take it that OP put this forth for discussion. I don't think he should be subject to attack for doing so.
I've read the link. Beyond being sourced on My Way, the piece is chilling in the idea the scholars put forth that it was OK for Hitler to selectively limit Jews from gun ownership while expanding it for the greater population.
This is sort of like what is going on right now in this country regarding people with a mental illness.
What happened to the Jews is demonstrable. That Hitler was behind such heinous action is demonstrable.
What is truly scary to me is the idea that government, through apparently benign and "common sense" actions takes out an entire segment of those it is sworn to protect.
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Old 03-24-2013, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Not a Cook View Post
the sad part is that there are many citizens (read: voters) who will not see how falacious the (supposedly "objective") argument is, and will simply read it and swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Many deceived voters will simply get this out of his reprehensible statement: "gee... it's better not to be armed and fight back, because that just makes whoever is trying to hurt you mad and they could hurt you worse." It's like, "don't resist a bully, he'll just get made and might hit you harder." Instead of, "resist the bully, and kick his butt, or at least go down trying." I can only think of one quote to respond with: "ya can't fix stupid". I'm afraid the majority are either unwilling or unable to stand up against evil.
so true. personally, i'd like to be able to choose my own fate. i'll go down swinging.
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Old 03-24-2013, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolito View Post
Lets look a little closer to America.

The Japanese internment tells us the government is capable of not living the constitution and taking from American citizens their God given rights as well as any protection the constitution stands for.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo...n-who-veterans

12% of the US population is veterans the lowest percentage per state is you guessed it New York.

These veterans are the Sheep Dogs that are willing to die for the flock ask a liberal Socialist what they are willing to do for the population.

Ask college students to level load the grades so that everybody gets a c we just take from the A and B students to level things out.

America is in trouble only time and action will tell how it comes out.
spot on. although i think there are those who would survive by going with the govt "program" as there were "nazi sympathizers". i always hated grading on a curve. it never benefitted me at all. give me an a and b on my own merits.
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:08 AM
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"Hitler did not in fact confiscate arms from all citizens. he only confiscated arms from those he intended to oppress. I hope this clarifies matters for everyone."

What else do you need to know?
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:17 AM
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Interestingly enough, he didn't interview the survivors. Now why is that ? Could it be that they would give personal accounts that refute what he writes ? I'm thinking, yeah probably.
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:56 AM
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The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.
-- Adolph Hitler, April 11 1942
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:23 AM
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The idea that the Jews were better off without guns reveals a very dark core belief that evil is not worth resisting.

"The Final Solution" was pure evil and the greatest nobility is found in resisting it with everything you have, down to the last breath. Too bad the author doesn't understand that some things are worth fighting for even if you die in the process.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:15 PM
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jdberger jdberger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
I've got my asbestos hazmat suit on, I'm a bit at loose ends for a few moments, so I may as well dive in on one small particular annoyance related to this whole Hitler gun control fandango.

Almost all the Jews and other Holocaust victims were not Germans. Whatever gun control the Nazis instigated against German Jews had nothing to do with the Warsaw uprising. The author says that, and yet most of the rants here ignore it, turn a willful blind eye to that, going on about gun controllers everywhere, about Nazis, about the Warsaw ghetto, on and on.

Why not rant about the Polish government's gun control measures, whatever they were? Or rant about the German and Russian occupation armies and whatever gun control the brought with them? Why waste so much bile on something unrelated? Haven't you got anything more topical?

Jehosaphat it gets a bit much. This thread was Godwined right from the start, but it's one of the first threads I've seen in which almost every single post continues the Godwinning.
I'm not sure that you can "Godwin" a post about Nazi Germany.

In any event, I've started to see this article and the quote from Paulson in a lot of places, recently. SFGate, HuffPo, Atlantic, etc. It's a version of, "Honey, if you fight back, you'll just get hurt. You might as well lie back and enjoy it."

And just as vile.

In the end, it's probably good for us because it demonstrates that they recognize that the Right includes resistance to tyranny (or else why address it?) and it exposes the bankruptcy of their arguments and philosophy.
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