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  #1  
Old 03-22-2013, 2:23 PM
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Default This a Primer or Trigger issue?

Trying to figure out if my FTFs are a primer issue, or perhaps something wrong with the trigger.

I've attached some photos here... the taller shells are still loaded rounds that didn't go off. With these I reset the trigger and fired 2-3 times, waiting 30 seconds between firings.

The shorter are empty brass cases that fired.


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Old 03-22-2013, 2:52 PM
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I want to say bad primers. Those strikes look good to me, and the fact that you dropped the firing pin on the same round 3 times and it still didn't go off adds to that theory.
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  #3  
Old 03-22-2013, 2:56 PM
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Wow, looks like quite a few that didn't fire! Tell us about your reloading process; I'm thinking contaminated primers.
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Old 03-22-2013, 3:15 PM
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Plugged flash hole.
Mil surp powder.
Contaminated primer.

Definitely good strikes. Give us some more details.
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Old 03-22-2013, 3:21 PM
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The ammo are reloads from a reputable company... Chatted with the company owner and they used Military #34 primers for this batch. They ran out of CCI 200. Dunno what they use for powder. I've shot lots of their ammo previously and never had any issues.

Anyhow, when it actually does go off, the accuracy is amazing... it's too bad over 1/2 don't go off.
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Old 03-22-2013, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
Plugged flash hole.
Mil surp powder.
Contaminated primer.

Definitely good strikes. Give us some more details.
This


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Old 03-22-2013, 3:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
The ammo are reloads from a reputable company... Chatted with the company owner and they used Military #34 primers for this batch. They ran out of CCI 200. Dunno what they use for powder. I've shot lots of their ammo previously and never had any issues.

Anyhow, when it actually does go off, the accuracy is amazing... it's too bad over 1/2 don't go off.
Wow! Are they going to take care of you?
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Old 03-22-2013, 3:49 PM
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Sent him a message. I'm gonna try to run this ammo out of another rifle. If it works, I'll just dedicate the ammo to that rifle.

Kinda sucks for everyone if I had to send it back.

They're not a big shop.

Guess I shouldn't have sold all my FGMM. Sigh... if only I had some Rem 9 1/2 and Varget.
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Old 03-22-2013, 3:54 PM
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47 caps that didn't go bang??? This guy sucks.
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:26 PM
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I would guess that thee rounds were pretty hot too. Some cratering and a little primer flow from mil primers makes me guess they were somewhat stout.
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Old 03-22-2013, 5:46 PM
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I doubt those would fire in any rifle. The primer strike looks deep. I would pull the bullets and see how the primers look after depriming. Also see how the powder looks in the cases.
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Old 03-22-2013, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
Plugged flash hole.
Mil surp powder.
Contaminated primer.

Definitely good strikes. Give us some more details.
This is it. It's that round not the gun
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
The ammo are reloads from a reputable company... Chatted with the company owner and they used Military #34 primers for this batch. They ran out of CCI 200. Dunno what they use for powder. I've shot lots of their ammo previously and never had any issues.

Anyhow, when it actually does go off, the accuracy is amazing... it's too bad over 1/2 don't go off.
Since the only thing that changed was the primers...
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  #14  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacilander View Post
I doubt those would fire in any rifle. The primer strike looks deep. I would pull the bullets and see how the primers look after depriming. Also see how the powder looks in the cases.
O/P, If you do decide to pull any bullets, DON"T use a kinetic puller, use a collet puller. Kinetic puller could cause one of the dented primers to fire.
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIGHT762 View Post
O/P, If you do decide to pull any bullets, DON"T use a kinetic puller, use a collet puller. Kinetic puller could cause one of the dented primers to fire.
Absolutely correct don't use a kinetic to slam on those rounds. Like all aspects of reloading be safe. But my money is on those primers being bad. Let us know what you find out.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:48 PM
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I didn't even look at the fired round. Some pretty good flattening going on.
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:28 PM
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sucky relaods and I would think headspace or OAL to shoulder is too short allowing some cushion when firing and thats why primers dent but push foward and cushion blow, or not
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Old 03-23-2013, 5:07 AM
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I agree with Bruce, excessive headspace will also cause that. What gun were you using?
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  #19  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:57 AM
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Just a quick question from a non-reloader. I plan on starting sometime this summer, but for now, I'm just studying and saving.

I noticed the primers that have fired have a slightly raised edge around the strike point, and the ones that have not fired have more of a dent in the primer.

Assuming the primers are the same, the operation of the rifle was the same, yada-yada-yada, ceteris paribus, wouldn't this indicate a variation in the striking of the primers? Would excessive headspace allow for, "play," of the cartridge inside the rifle during the strike? I just don't see how primers could be at fault when they don't have a uniform strike point.
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  #20  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:29 AM
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The ones that didn't fire I believe the OP stated he tried two to three more times which would explain the primer strikes being so deep. Which is why my vote is on faulty primers!
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:51 AM
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Thanks for all the advice folks. I took some measurements.

***Problematic Ammo
-Fired Brass Length: 2.002 - 2.006
-Unfired Brass Length: 1.996
-OAL with 175smk: 2.805

***Factory Ammo
-Unfired Brass Length: 2.005
-OAL with 175smk: 2.805

I believe SAAMI recommended trim length is 2.005".

Looks like some of you were right on the money, brass is too short... so now I wonder if this will run in any of my 308s.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:51 AM
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Wow, send that ammo back and or refund. That had to be extremely frustrating.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:54 AM
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HKDave,

308 HSpace's off shoulder, not off neck. It's trimmed after resizing, how does short neck affect primer strike bro?
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:55 AM
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Woooo...
Sending them back is an option. The assembler should set this straight.
Primers do age and if not stored in a dry location can be failures.

As mentioned, headspace can cause this intermittent failure. Additionally, as well as spring/firing pin issues can cause issues. But three strikes and no discharge - mmm primer. Could still be a spring issue. The rate of the strike is important, as the friction cause from the strike ignites the charge.

Have you checked to ensure the pin is intact and the spring is also intact?
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyup View Post
HKDave,

308 HSpace's off shoulder, not off neck. It's trimmed after resizing, how does short neck affect primer strike bro?
LOL sorry, you're right, just ran a marathon, head has no blood. Let me go measure.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:58 AM
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It's not plugged flash holes. If the flash holes are plugged the primer will still go off. You will see black carbon around the edges of the primers because the pressure is not high enough to seal the primer edges.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:00 AM
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Did you check / compare headspace on new & fired cases? Is it a headspace (shoulder setback too far) or did they trim neck short?
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CenterX View Post
Woooo...
Sending them back is an option. The assembler should set this straight.
Primers do age and if not stored in a dry location can be failures.

As mentioned, headspace can cause this intermittent failure. Additionally, as well as spring/firing pin issues can cause issues. But three strikes and no discharge - mmm primer. Could still be a spring issue. The rate of the strike is important, as the friction cause from the strike ignites the charge.

Have you checked to ensure the pin is intact and the spring is also intact?
Do you think it could be a spring issue given how deep the impacts are on the primer? It is a brand new surgeon spring, but i suppose it could be bad.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:04 AM
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Short shoulder shouldn't be much of an issue. Fire forming short shoulder ammo to make larger brass is a common practice.

Check your spring for the heck of it. Dimpled primers again indicate a strike, but is it consistently fast enough?
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyup View Post
HKDave,

308 HSpace's off shoulder, not off neck. It's trimmed after resizing, how does short neck affect primer strike bro?
I agree, even with shorter headspace, with those strikes the primer should have gone boom! The shorter headspace if there would just be a whole other sort of problem and possibly dangerous.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:09 AM
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Hmmm. Has the manufacure had any other complaints?

Once had a cracked firing pin that intermittently worked. It was on a lever action.

Also had spring issues with a new spring as well. Took the old one and lined it up next to the new one and lo and behold the new one was a tad shorter. Put the old one back in and the problem went away.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:10 AM
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Got to run. I hope you get it solved.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:19 AM
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Don't have any 308 specific gauges so tried to measure a best as I could with a caliper (probably horrific measurements).

-Ammo that didn't go bang: Shoulder 1.557 to 1.717
-Factory ammo: Shoulder 1.567-1.712

You know what, it's time to pick up everything I need to press my own 308, this is getting stupid. :P Got everything loaded on my Brownells cart.. now to figure out bushings for my Redding Type S dies. Course the precision mic is back-ordered.
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Last edited by HK Dave; 03-23-2013 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:30 AM
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My vote is still primer! But it's always a good idea to hand load when able. Not the best time to start though lol.

I am still curious who made the loads.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:55 AM
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You can use the hornady headspace gauge with a caliper in place of the case mic. Great call on reloading. Forrester makes great precision dies and bushings too. Might be easier to get. Have several sets of the redding and Forrester and they both rock. Best of luck compadre. Glad your considering the reloading hobby too.
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  #36  
Old 03-24-2013, 4:14 PM
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I see some cratering in the primers that went off. I forget what that means, hot loads?
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Old 03-24-2013, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrMike View Post
I see some cratering in the primers that went off. I forget what that means, hot loads?
Yes, hot.
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Old 03-25-2013, 4:30 PM
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The primers in the two unfired cases look as though thry are seated high in the pockets. If so, perhaps the firing pin pushed them in further, and they absorbed some of the impact in movement. They were dented, but not enough to crush the anvil. Still, several repeated firings should have set them off. I'd be curious enough to dis-assemble a couple to see what I could learn from this batch of ammo. And, I'll bet the manufacturer would like to know also so the problem isn't repeated.
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Old 03-25-2013, 7:31 PM
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2X on the high primers.

But the successive strikes should have set them off.

I'd say what you have there is defective primers.

Ammo that has been stuck several times and has not gone off is dangerous in it's current condition. Each time a primer is stuck, it becomes more sensitive, and there is the possibility that it could go off, without much of a strike.

I'd recommend pulling the bullets on a couple to verify that there is powder present. Could be the round was loaded without powder, and the bullet was so tightly crimped that the primer going off did not budge it from the casing.

If there is powder present, you need to deactivate the rounds to make them safe before shipping or storing them.
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Old 03-25-2013, 8:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIGHT762 View Post
O/P, If you do decide to pull any bullets, DON"T use a kinetic puller, use a collet puller. Kinetic puller could cause one of the dented primers to fire.
Good time to own a collet puller!
Good luck.
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