Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > California handguns
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-22-2013, 2:23 PM
pc_load_letter's Avatar
pc_load_letter pc_load_letter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,372
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default Question about SSE; NOT a question on legality, just the barrel making process....

Hi folks,

I was extremely lucky that a pistol I really wanted that was not on the roster was able to be modified to single shot by Ryan at Table Rock Arms.

This whole process got me thinking about the barrel and the whole process to weld on an extension etc etc, and why shops do the more highly requested Gen4 glocks and XDM's.

But with these modified barrels, do the barrels have to be of original equipment then modified?

With the prevalence of 80% lowers, it would seem logical to me that a shop could just as easily crank out barrels for the purpose of a SSE. I mean, you're not going to war with this barrel right?

Is it hard to machine a barrel or are there other factors that go into it, perhaps legal, that I am not understanding here.

Thanks
PCLL
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-22-2013, 2:25 PM
toyotech's Avatar
toyotech toyotech is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 192
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I think it's about cost. Every sse gun that is sold must sit for 10 days with that barrel
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-22-2013, 2:33 PM
SMR510's Avatar
SMR510 SMR510 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 869
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc_load_letter View Post
Is it hard to machine a barrel
Yes...

Much easier to buy a barrel and weld on an extension than to make one from scratch.

I also agree that because the gun must remain in SSE configuration for the full 10 days it probably isnt as lucrative as you may think because of the slow turn around. If only 10 people want X gun and it is going to cost you $300 to get a barrel then its probably not a move that business owners are going to make. Now if 100 people want the same gun and still only $300 for the barrel then it becomes cost effective.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:06 PM
Bug Splat's Avatar
Bug Splat Bug Splat is offline
Calguns Addict
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,562
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

If there is a off roster pistol I want that no one has an extended barrel for (reasons SMR510 stated) can I buy my own barrel, weld on the extension and bring it to the FFL and have them convert it for me?

Seems to me that someone could open a nice business making a bunch of different model barrels and renting it out to Calgunners.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:14 PM
im2ninja4u im2ninja4u is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Clovis, Ca
Posts: 278
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug Splat View Post
If there is a off roster pistol I want that no one has an extended barrel for (reasons SMR510 stated) can I buy my own barrel, weld on the extension and bring it to the FFL and have them convert it for me?
Seems to me that someone could open a nice business making a bunch of different model barrels and renting it out to Calgunners.
I believe you can, but you would need the magazine block also. I thought about getting barrels made and renting them out but I'm waiting to see if SSE gets banned this year or not .
__________________
It was a rifle that freed this country and it will be a rifle that will keep this country free.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:14 PM
Oceanbob's Avatar
Oceanbob Oceanbob is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,993
iTrader: 79 / 100%
Default

Lonewolf actually sells these longer barrels for California SSE. Here's mine in
.40

They also make a 9MM barrel.

(Now if we could just own legal Short Barreled Rifles here in Kalifornistan I could see a neat stock on the back of this G35...hehe )

But we can't.

__________________
May the Bridges I burn light the way.

Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain.

Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:47 PM
SMR510's Avatar
SMR510 SMR510 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 869
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug Splat View Post
If there is a off roster pistol I want that no one has an extended barrel for (reasons SMR510 stated) can I buy my own barrel, weld on the extension and bring it to the FFL and have them convert it for me?

Seems to me that someone could open a nice business making a bunch of different model barrels and renting it out to Calgunners.
It would ultimately be at the discreteness of the FFL doing the transfer but I do not see why not.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:47 PM
DRAB_81's Avatar
DRAB_81 DRAB_81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: LODI
Posts: 2,406
iTrader: 67 / 100%
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR510 View Post
Yes...

Much easier to buy a barrel and weld on an extension than to make one from scratch.

I also agree that because the gun must remain in SSE configuration for the full 10 days it probably isnt as lucrative as you may think because of the slow turn around. If only 10 people want X gun and it is going to cost you $300 to get a barrel then its probably not a move that business owners are going to make. Now if 100 people want the same gun and still only $300 for the barrel then it becomes cost effective.
If the SSE barrel costs $300, which is high ballpark, the dealer can make back most, if not all their money on the first SSE sale. For example, dealer cost for a GEN 4 Glock 9/40/357 is less than $400, and they charge minimum $599. They just made back $100-$200 depending on how you look at it. I can't imagine a shop that does SSE's only does one or two a year. It seems to be a relatively small investment with a quick turn to profit & an increase in sales for being one of the relatively few shops that facilitate SSE transfers.
__________________
AKA meathead9...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-22-2013, 5:03 PM
SMR510's Avatar
SMR510 SMR510 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 869
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAB_81 View Post
If the SSE barrel costs $300, which is high ballpark, the dealer can make back most, if not all their money on the first SSE sale. For example, dealer cost for a GEN 4 Glock 9/40/357 is less than $400, and they charge minimum $599. They just made back $100-$200 depending on how you look at it. I can't imagine a shop that does SSE's only does one or two a year. It seems to be a relatively small investment with a quick turn to profit & an increase in sales for being one of the relatively few shops that facilitate SSE transfers.
Yea but you are forgetting about all their other costs, rent, employees, electric, etc. If I can sell all the 3rd gen glocks I can get my hands on then why waste my time and money on 4th gens? I assume that my net profit would be similar if you compare a 3rd to 4th gen and I dont have to buy a barrel to sell a 3rd gen or limit myself to selling 1 every 10 days like I would if I needed to SSE it. I do agree that if you are one of the only local dealers that does SSE it can bring you a lot of business though but that is why you see them start with the glocks and XDM's. I would rather have 2 barrels for something I know I could sell a ton of then a barrel for the best selling gun and a barrel for something I might sell 10 of in a year.

And I am talking more about something less popular, obviously any glock model will sell well but stuff that is either hard to find or really expensive makes getting your money back out of it a slower process.

Something like a 1911 in .45 makes a lot of sense from the FFL's standpoint because I bet you can find a commercially available barrel that meets the requirements and you can use it on such a large variety of guns from all different manufacturers.

Last edited by SMR510; 03-22-2013 at 5:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2013, 5:13 PM
bwiese's Avatar
bwiese bwiese is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Jose
Posts: 26,680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc_load_letter View Post
Hi folks,
This whole process got me thinking about the barrel and the whole
process to weld on an extension etc etc, and why shops do the more highly requested Gen4 glocks and XDM's.
Replacement bbls are cheap, and so the shop can have an inventory of extended barrels as 'inventory'/'cores'.

Quote:
But with these modified barrels, do the barrels have to be of original equipment then modified?
Typically, no. No legal requirement.

Typically the buyer buys the gun with a long barrel (starting with DROS thru 10 day wait & pickup). Also, a zero-round filler that replaces the N-round magazine is also installed and locked in with a tool-requiring device (maglock, etc.)

He then picks up the gun and later installs a factory (or other) shorter barrel. The long bbl is then sold back /refunded to the FFL or the FFL trusts buyer to return it.


Quote:
With the prevalence of 80% lowers, it would seem logical to me that
a shop could just as easily crank out barrels for the purpose of a SSE.
I mean, you're not going to war with this barrel right?

Such AR lowers can be crap and still work and not have gun blow up in your face. An AR lower does not do much work at all other than hold small parts together; the upper "does the work". It is much different than barrel/chamber/bolt out of battery arenas.

1. Barrels + chambers are 'where the action is' and essentially determines whether or
not the gun fires safely. Do you want the liability of a crap bbl with a hot charge of
ammo that blows up in someone's face? Also, this relates to 'unsafe handgun' law - it
sure as hell makes sense for exempt guns to not be unsafe. Having a gun made SSEd
but that would blow up in someone's face just "doesn't pass the smell test". The SSE
process was created with *rationality* and similarly to treatment of the toplogy of guns
like T/Cs and Remington XP100s etc.

A LOT of thought went into this. Remember this has to pass the legal 'smell' test, otherwise
the gun could be regarded as "not really a single-shot pistol because it doesn't work". This
means it should not only NOT blow up in someone's face, it shouldn't cut his hands, it should
not be good for just a few rounds before failing, and should be able to 'stay that way,
operationally' for extended time period of rational use.

[BTW, in foreign countries like Britain, the BARRELS are often the serialized/controlled item, not the frames!]

2. Making a bbl requires rifling; unrifled bbls in a pistol result in an "unconventional pistol" (CA felony!)

3. Those sane FFL folks extending bbls to compliant lengths with a welded-on sleeve/extension do
it carefully, and check concentricity & lack of bore obstruction with a caliber-diameter Delrin or
brass rod. "Doing it right" takes a tad of effort, plus the cost of the bbl for "barrel inventory".


Quote:
Is it hard to machine a barrel or are there other factors that go into it, perhaps legal, that I am
not understanding here.

Safe barrels can be harder to make for larger/stronger calibers. All the 'work' is done in the chamber/bbl area ("contained explosion and pressure"). This is nontrivial.

Given the availability of cheap bbls (3rd party or otherwise) in volume for common guns makes Glock Gen 4s and 1911s commonly SSE'd because there is an advanced starting point. An FFL can buy and modify enough of these to keep in circulation.

It's the more rare/imported guns that have special barrels that are not commonly available - except as expen$ive factory replacements, often with order delays - that cause availability issues or require the individual to pay for either a spare factory bbl that gets modified, or require the original bbl to be modified. This latter exposes some risk to the bbl that 'undoing' the compliance bbl extension will harm the barrel's accuracy given proximity to the crown, which is the last influence on the bbl as bullet actually leaves.

If cheap bbls were to be made for SSEs, they'd be chambered in 25ACP, or bore-offset-from-center 22LR, and made from easier-to-machine metal.

There's been little interest in this because there just isn't that much demand for uncommon guns (um, that's why they're uncommon). Those customers that desirious of a less-common gun can just pay $$$ for a spare barrel [instead of using one of several barrels that can be returned].
__________________

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member

No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are
to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net
ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my
employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as
legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

Last edited by bwiese; 03-22-2013 at 5:23 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:44 PM
DRAB_81's Avatar
DRAB_81 DRAB_81 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: LODI
Posts: 2,406
iTrader: 67 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR510 View Post
Yea but you are forgetting about all their other costs, rent, employees, electric, etc. If I can sell all the 3rd gen glocks I can get my hands on then why waste my time and money on 4th gens? I assume that my net profit would be similar if you compare a 3rd to 4th gen and I dont have to buy a barrel to sell a 3rd gen or limit myself to selling 1 every 10 days like I would if I needed to SSE it. I do agree that if you are one of the only local dealers that does SSE it can bring you a lot of business though but that is why you see them start with the glocks and XDM's. I would rather have 2 barrels for something I know I could sell a ton of then a barrel for the best selling gun and a barrel for something I might sell 10 of in a year.

And I am talking more about something less popular, obviously any glock model will sell well but stuff that is either hard to find or really expensive makes getting your money back out of it a slower process.

Something like a 1911 in .45 makes a lot of sense from the FFL's standpoint because I bet you can find a commercially available barrel that meets the requirements and you can use it on such a large variety of guns from all different manufacturers.
I didn't forget about any of that. Gun shops that do SSE, don't ONLY do SSE. They also sell TONS of rostered handguns, rifles, shotguns, ammo, accessories blah blah blah, and that's what pays the bills. I'd hardly call a few $300 SSE barrels "wasting all my time & money". It's going to bring in new customers, and probably create loyal customers. Those customers will also buy ammo, accessories & more guns. All things equal, if you're just selling the same guns as the next guy, why should they buy from you? People travel hundreds of miles to buy SSE guns, so it is definitely drawing customers that would typically buy somewhere else. Start with popular guns like GEN 4 Glocks & 1911's, and build up to others like the XDm, HK, M&P Pro, PPQ, LCP etc etc etc. If a few hundred bucks here & there for new SSE barrels is going to put a gun shop in the red, they have bigger problems.
__________________
AKA meathead9...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:15 AM
nickel plate's Avatar
nickel plate nickel plate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 1,072
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toyotech View Post
I think it's about cost. Every sse gun that is sold must sit for 10 days with that barrel
Are you sure about that?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:38 PM
Press Check Press Check is offline
1911 Aficionado
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: BLM
Posts: 4,461
iTrader: 58 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickel plate View Post
Are you sure about that?
Yes, the pistol must remain in Single-Shot configuration during DROS until the pistol is released, and the owner removes the barrel and magazine block. This is the reason why some dealers are back-logged.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-23-2013, 1:12 PM
Cyc Wid It's Avatar
Cyc Wid It Cyc Wid It is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 4,499
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

Everybody re-read the sticky and read Bill's post in this thread. Thanks.
__________________
Please search/read stickies and permanent links AT THE TOP OF EVERY PAGE before making a thread.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:54 PM
JeremyS's Avatar
JeremyS JeremyS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 2,012
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Oh my gosh, yes, just welding a piece of pipe to the end of an OEM barrel is easier (WAY EASIER) than machining an entire new barrel from scratch!

As mentioned above, you also have to block the gun so it can only accept a single round. Usually that means modifying a magazine so it accepts ZERO rounds (turns into a single shot sled). Meaning the single round has to go through the chamber. Also, that block is supposed to be permanent, which means you have to disable the mag release so a tool is required. Normally that means grinding off the part that protrudes so you can't activate it with your thumb. Now you have a sled/block device "locked" into the grip, and the gun truly only will accept a single round maximum.
__________________
Escaped to WA



My YouTube Channel
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-30-2013, 5:24 PM
nickel plate's Avatar
nickel plate nickel plate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 1,072
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Press Check View Post
Yes, the pistol must remain in Single-Shot configuration during DROS until the pistol is released, and the owner removes the barrel and magazine block. This is the reason why some dealers are back-logged.
I'm not going to persue your answer any further.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-30-2013, 5:51 PM
Markinsac Markinsac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 558
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickel plate View Post
I'm not going to persue your answer any further.
If the FFL happens to be inspected during the period of DROS, they would need to show that it is in the configuration for sale. If I remember, they have to have an 07 FFL in order to make the change to SSE configuration.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-30-2013, 9:38 PM
Edwood Edwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 780
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post

The whole absurdity of the CA Hand gun Roster is not fully appreciated until seeing a pic like this one.

Just plain stupid to have to go to these lengths to get off roster guns.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-30-2013, 11:00 PM
Aspec5vz's Avatar
Aspec5vz Aspec5vz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,403
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

When I bought my PPQ the barrel that was used for the SSE was a threaded p99 barrel that had an extension that was screwed onto the threaded barrel and welded.

Also, when I bought my Gen 4 Glock through SSE it didn't have a magwell block, just an extended barrel. The magwell is supposed to be blocked isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-03-2013, 12:35 AM
JeremyS's Avatar
JeremyS JeremyS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 2,012
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Basically. See my post above...
__________________
Escaped to WA



My YouTube Channel
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-03-2013, 9:16 AM
munkeeboi's Avatar
munkeeboi munkeeboi is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank
Posts: 3,716
iTrader: 416 / 100%
Default

I have an extra cz75 barrel. Any suggestions on what to use to extend it?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-03-2013, 2:20 PM
SJgunguy24's Avatar
SJgunguy24 SJgunguy24 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern Mexico(San Jose) Where illegals have rights and citizens get screwed
Posts: 14,858
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by munkeeboi View Post
I have an extra cz75 barrel. Any suggestions on what to use to extend it?
Find some steel tube the same OD as the barrel and weld it on. You can send it to me and I'll weld it for you. I still have my jigs I used at VA for welding extensions.
The easiest way is how I did them at VA. Barrel sleeves chambered in 22lr. that just dropped in. It wasn't cheap and I had to make by hand about 20 of them in different calibers. This crap was figured out a long time ago.
If I had a damn lathe I'd just make em and rent them out or sell em to shops.
__________________
There are 3 kinds of people in this world.
The wise, learn from the mistakes of others.
The smart, learn from their own mistakes.
The others, well......they just never learn.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death!"
Patrick Henry.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:20 AM
9mmrevolver's Avatar
9mmrevolver 9mmrevolver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: neverland
Posts: 1,009
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

My dad wants a (cough) high point in a 40cal. Why can't he find anyone that carries them in stock. Yes I know the #1 reason is because they suck. But is there something else. Is the barrel attached to the frame like the bersa thunder.


For the 0 round factor, couldn't you just put a really long screw in the grip that restricts a mag from even going into the gun?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:40 AM
67goat 67goat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 828
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmrevolver View Post
My dad wants a (cough) high point in a 40cal. Why can't he find anyone that carries them in stock. Yes I know the #1 reason is because they suck. But is there something else. Is the barrel attached to the frame like the bersa thunder.


For the 0 round factor, couldn't you just put a really long screw in the grip that restricts a mag from even going into the gun?
Hi Points are indeed fixed barrel designs.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:39 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.