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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 03-21-2013, 9:32 AM
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Almost all laws restricting gun rights are written by Democrats and passed because of party line votes, and yet the problem isnt that the Democrats are voting wrong on this issue, rather lets blame the GOP because if only they acted more the way some want on social issues, then they could outnumber the Democrats and stop them from introducing anti gun legislation and outnumber their party line votes. Yeah. Cool story bro. How about we blame the politicians who vote for this crap and stick it on them. If you want your representative to change on gun rights, write to them not us.

It seems like the underlying strategy to the change the GOP line of thinking is "I disagree with my dem reps on gun control but they won't change, and I agree with the repub challengers on gun rights but not other issues, so since the dems won't change, maybe I can get the republicans to change instead ". In other words you have given up on cleaning up your house and you see more hope in blaming the GOP and asking them to change their core beliefs. That will never work. Until both parties and a majority of citizens understand and respect the constitution and the 2a, we are screwed.
Amazing isn't it. GOP must change their views. I guess it shouldn't be amazing or surprising given what Progressives/liberals stand for.
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  #122  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:10 AM
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If you're on the team that keeps losing, that means your team is doing something wrong.
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  #123  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:17 AM
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Amazing isn't it. GOP must change their views. I guess it shouldn't be amazing or surprising given what Progressives/liberals stand for.
Because if your party (CA GOP) is fading into insignificance, the best course of action is to make no changes to your (losing) platform. Yeah, makes sense to me. Going down with the ship is an honorable thing to do for the captain, but in the end, he's still dead.

If you look at US history, political parties change their views from time to time. Arguing that no party should ever change their views means that you support the idea of having a pro-slavery party, among other ridiculous things.
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  #124  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:22 AM
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What a lot of people seem to be saying here is; when Libertarians become Progressives, and Conservatives become Liberals then we'll get our Constitutional Rights.

Because we know that progressives and liberals are all about my freedom, unless it needs to be taken away for my own good.
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  #125  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:27 AM
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  #126  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:31 AM
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Because if your party (CA GOP) is fading into insignificance, the best course of action is to make no changes to your (losing) platform. Yeah, makes sense to me. Going down with the ship is an honorable thing to do for the captain, but in the end, he's still dead.

If you look at US history, political parties change their views from time to time. Arguing that no party should ever change their views means that you support the idea of having a pro-slavery party, among other ridiculous things.
When I last remember seeing a California gun poll it showed a majority of the people were for gun control. So, by your logic Republicans should change their views to become more relevant. Women and Hispanics seem to be more anti-gun than other other groups, and the Republicans need to court these two groups especially hard, so maybe they should drop their 2A stance.
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  #127  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:42 AM
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What a lot of people seem to be saying here is; when Libertarians become Progressives, and Conservatives become Liberals then we'll get our Constitutional Rights.

Because we know that progressives and liberals are all about my freedom, unless it needs to be taken away for my own good.
I don't think anybody is saying that here. It's just that the Republican base is comprised of somewhat distinct groups - with some overlaps - and that over the past decade (and in California for much longer), the leadership has been betting on the wrong strategy. It's turned off moderates, establishment and Goldwater types, many libertarians, by focusing on social issues and misguided foreign policy rather than economic ones.

It looks like there are a lot of strategists in the Republican Party right now rethinking the GOP's stances and how it can reinvent itself to become more relevant and win back the White House and some states' legislatures or governorships. Everytime a Republican won the White House, it was because his team had rethought, reinvented the party line. You want to keep losing? Don't change anything.

Republicans are not going to win if they keep applying the same strategy and ideas over and over. It's not working. This is not about conservatives turning into liberals. This is about shifting its focus to issues and coming up with ideas that appeal to a wider range of voters.
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  #128  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:44 AM
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If you're on the team that keeps losing, that means your team is doing something wrong.
The battlefield has been prepped for over 40 yrs of indoctrination by progressives in academia, colleges, and the media to change the country to their ideals/principals. The next generation will be fully indoctrinated. Doing something wrong according to you is holding to most of the principals that made this country into what it is/was. We have to throw those away and become progressive, become part of the collective. Yeah.....right! When the wheels fall off this country no doubt it will be GOP and conservatives blamed. Why will they get blamed? The media will tell us so.
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  #129  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:44 AM
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women are not necessarily anti gun, they just see their private parts and who their friends get to marry as more important than gun rights. Many are ambivalent to the gun. A true die-hard feminist should techinically support gun rights, but not at the expense of other ones they hold dear.
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  #130  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
The battlefield has been prepped for over 40 yrs of indoctrination by progressives in academia, colleges, and the media to change the country to their ideals/principals. The next generation will be fully indoctrinated. Doing something wrong according to you is holding to most of the principals that made this country into what it is/was. We have to throw those away and become progressive, become part of the collective. Yeah.....right! When the wheels fall off this country no doubt it will be GOP and conservatives blamed. Why will they get blamed? The media will tell us so.
Give me a break. I know plenty of college-educated conservatives. And I've known plenty of conservative college professors.

Stop blaming academia, the media and whatever else. You're just shifting the blame because you don't want to question the GOP's failing strategy.
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  #131  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Rumline View Post
Because if your party (CA GOP) is fading into insignificance, the best course of action is to make no changes to your (losing) platform. Yeah, makes sense to me. Going down with the ship is an honorable thing to do for the captain, but in the end, he's still dead.

If you look at US history, political parties change their views from time to time. Arguing that no party should ever change their views means that you support the idea of having a pro-slavery party, among other ridiculous things.
I never voted party line Democrat.
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  #132  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:53 AM
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Group A: Likes chicken, rice and corn ... can't stand carrots or potatoes.

Group B1: Likes steak, potatoes and carrots ... can't stand rice or corn.

Group B2: Likes Chicken, just fine, but still hates the rice and corn.

Say what you like, but you aren't going to get Group B1 to like Chicken by getting Group A to be more open to carrots and potatoes. It just doesn't work like that.

If you are a part of a group that (mostly) just doesn't have any respect for the 2A, dislikes guns and dislikes people who own guns ... you aren't going to change their minds by convincing "gun people" to change their stance on some unrelated issue.
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  #133  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:57 AM
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Group A: Likes chicken, rice and corn ... can't stand carrots or potatoes.

Group B1: Likes steak, potatoes and carrots ... can't stand rice or corn.

Group B2: Likes Chicken, just fine, but still hates the rice and corn.

Say what you like, but you aren't going to get Group B1 to like Chicken by getting Group A to be more open to carrots and potatoes. It just doesn't work like that.

If you are a part of a group that (mostly) just doesn't have any respect for the 2A, dislikes guns and dislikes people who own guns ... you aren't going to change their minds by convincing "gun people" to change their stance on some unrelated issue.
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  #134  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:07 AM
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How many gun owners would vote for Nancy Pelosi if she were pro-gun but otherwise held her present political positions? Of those who would vote for her, how many would speak well of her? I mention this only to help those of us who are conservative or Republican consider what we ask of our liberal or Democratic Party partisan gun owners.

My answer is - I'd vote for her, just like I voted for Harry Reid when I lived in NV. The phrase "holding my nose" doesn't begin to describe how I feel, but I'd do it. Blech ....

And to be blunt, our liberal or Democratic Party gun owners, it seems to me, ought to do the same. Because they, not us, will influence their party leaders. The problem is they always seem to find a reason to not do it.

If the reason is "I don't care about guns that much" then they ought to just say it. Can't get mad at someone for being honest. I'll recount an exchange on another forum.

A FL Democrat "I'm a proud gun owner" was repeatedly asked "what do you do?" to promote gun ownership and would he write Senator Nelson. Finally his response was "I'm happy with his position on guns, why bother?". The Senator's position included support for the AW ban, mag limits, background and registration. Supposedly things the fellow opposed. When brought to his attention & asked "will you write?" the answer was still "why bother?" So far as I know, he still has not. BTW, this fellow depises and opposes Rubio, but voted for Nelson.

At the least, shouldn't pro-gun Democrats tell their candidates "Lay off guns or I won't vote for you" and mean it? A vote withheld is worth something.

I understand the challenges, but "pro-gun Democrats" can't expect to toss gun owners an anchor at election time and get a kiss on the cheek in return. Either the issue is important to them or it is not. If it is then do something about it, if not then own up to it.
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  #135  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:13 AM
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Give me a break. I know plenty of college-educated conservatives. And I've known plenty of conservative college professors.

Stop blaming academia, the media and whatever else. You're just shifting the blame because you don't want to question the GOP's failing strategy.
So tell me, if a conservative prof stood up against something like "gay rights" and made impassioned pleas to the student body, he would not be subject to harassment, scrutiny, and review of his employment? Give it a rest. There are conservative groups on campus' that have to fight for their 1A rights all the time. It seems their views do not "reflect" the views of the university and its goals of "diversity".
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  #136  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:13 AM
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Look at the very top of this page.


Read the name of the site.

CalGUNS

Not CalGayMarriage. Not CalAbortionRights. NotCalImmigration.

CalGUNS
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  #137  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:42 AM
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Look at the very top of this page.


Read the name of the site.

CalGUNS

Not CalGayMarriage. Not CalAbortionRights. NotCalImmigration.

CalGUNS
Like it or not, this thread is political and partisanship. And politics are not just about the 2A.

You don't have to read it.
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  #138  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:43 AM
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So tell me, if a conservative prof stood up against something like "gay rights" and made impassioned pleas to the student body, he would not be subject to harassment, scrutiny, and review of his employment? Give it a rest. There are conservative groups on campus' that have to fight for their 1A rights all the time. It seems their views do not "reflect" the views of the university and its goals of "diversity".
There are plenty of universities and colleges where those professors' views are encouraged.
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  #139  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Look at the very top of this page.


Read the name of the site.

CalGUNS

Not CalGayMarriage. Not CalAbortionRights. NotCalImmigration.

CalGUNS
As far as I'm concerned the 2A is the last line of protection all those things you just mentioned. The constitution can't be taken as just one amendment over another IMHO. This is what our policiticans have done and absolutely divided us.
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  #140  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:51 AM
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Like it or not, this thread is political and partisanship. And politics are not just about the 2A.

You don't have to read it.
Thanks. I was on pins and needles waiting for your approval to read or not read......
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  #141  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:16 PM
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The lesson to be learned out of Colorado is as follows:

No matter what a Democrat SAYS, they DO NOT support your Second Amendment Rights.
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  #142  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:25 PM
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There are plenty of universities and colleges where those professors' views are encouraged tolerated, barely, in small amounts so they can appear to be "fair".
Fixed it for you.

Seriously ... the numbers just aren't there. Find me a list of all the professors - at major universities - who get tenure following public (or even private) admission of being especially conservative-leaning in their views.
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  #143  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:32 PM
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I don't think anybody is saying that here. It's just that the Republican base is comprised of somewhat distinct groups - with some overlaps - and that over the past decade (and in California for much longer), the leadership has been betting on the wrong strategy. It's turned off moderates, establishment and Goldwater types, many libertarians, by focusing on social issues and misguided foreign policy rather than economic ones.

It looks like there are a lot of strategists in the Republican Party right now rethinking the GOP's stances and how it can reinvent itself to become more relevant and win back the White House and some states' legislatures or governorships. Everytime a Republican won the White House, it was because his team had rethought, reinvented the party line. You want to keep losing? Don't change anything.

Republicans are not going to win if they keep applying the same strategy and ideas over and over. It's not working. This is not about conservatives turning into liberals. This is about shifting its focus to issues and coming up with ideas that appeal to a wider range of voters.
I have seen Biden say and do things that are beyond stupidity, and never see anything in the MSM. Then I watched Rubio take an awkward drink of water and I heard about it everywhere from the MSM to the late night comics for more than a week. Even people who never watch the news knew about the awkward drink, and why? Every Republican in a leadership role has been portrayed as either a idiot or an evil genius since Reagan.

The Strategist that are looking at changing the party are folks like Rove trying to push the GOP to the left, and giving the GOP candidates the the base will never except. Rove will give the GOP a bunch of Establishment Republicans who would barter your 2A rights away for some stupid deal the Democrats will back out of.

We Libertarians are not welcome in the GOP, but we are tolerated which is much more than I can say for the DNC, and I have more in common with a fiscal Conservative than I do a Progressive DNC type.

I think the most important right I have is the right not to be killed by my Government without due process. When Rand Paul filibustered he was supported by 13 Senators, but only one of those was a Democrat. After politicians saw how popular the filibuster was they then began to have serious issues with the drone program, but the only ones that get any credit are the original 13.

I'm not saying the Republicans are fighting for our rights, but there is the Libertarian wing of the GOP which is more than I can say for the DNC.
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  #144  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:37 PM
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There are plenty of universities and colleges where those professors' views are encouraged.

I work for the University of California, and that is just not true.
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  #145  
Old 03-21-2013, 2:04 PM
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Every Republican in a leadership role has been portrayed as either a idiot or an evil genius since Reagan.
Bush 41 is protreyed as both, it's freakign hilarious... hear some demmi go on and on about how dumb bush was, them bait that same demmi into a discussion about how Bush flawlessley exicuted his evil plan to draw america into the Iraq war
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  #146  
Old 03-21-2013, 2:10 PM
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If you are a part of a group that (mostly) just doesn't have any respect for the 2A, dislikes guns and dislikes people who own guns ... you aren't going to change their minds by convincing "gun people" to change their stance on some unrelated issue.
You don't have to change their minds. By making the pro-2A group more appealing on other issues, you steal members away from the anti-2A group, thus overwhelming said anti-2A group.
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Old 03-21-2013, 2:24 PM
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When I last remember seeing a California gun poll it showed a majority of the people were for gun control. So, by your logic Republicans should change their views to become more relevant. Women and Hispanics seem to be more anti-gun than other other groups, and the Republicans need to court these two groups especially hard, so maybe they should drop their 2A stance.
I don't know a huge number of people, but the ones I've talked politics with that consider themselves to be solid Democrats talk about all kinds of issues, but not much about guns, even after Sandy Hook. I.e. schools, taxes, drones, sequestration, Syria, etc. I don't think many of them really give a s*** about guns unless pressed on it. I have been able to get a fair number of them to acknowledge that gun control is BS. There are probably several ways to court the groups you mentioned without sacrificing on 2A.
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  #148  
Old 03-21-2013, 2:29 PM
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Sounds like a bunch of Libertarians who are being used by their respective red/blue parties as pawns to do their bidding/vetting. That is the funny thing about choice, when you only have two (or believe you only have two) you really have no choice/voice and the red/blue camps both know it.

They are the same, all a bunch of out of touch elitists living high on the hog making "our" decisions and deciding what "freedoms" they will allow their subjects; all the while, bilking/pilfering billions for themselves and their cohorts and conspirators.

They love to see the people vs the people while they sit back and sip their cognac/champagne. This strife gives them purpose and an existence. In the name of self-governance they dictate and rule over. Some democracy eh?

Off the soapbox now and back to the bickering.......the irony being-this strife/bickering sounds just like our idiot rulers (both red and blue who are equally terrible) when they self govern on our behalf.

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  #149  
Old 03-21-2013, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Damn True View Post
The lesson to be learned out of Colorado is as follows:

No matter what a Democrat SAYS, they DO NOT support your Second Amendment Rights.
I would be interested to know what effort, if any, was made by CO Democrats to tell their legislators to lay off guns. The CO legislature is controlled by the Democrats, but it's not overwhelming and there aren't big numbers out there - maybe 60 legislators in each chamber.

One would think, given how close some of the 2010 state level races were in CO (I believe a total of 2,000 votes decided 4 seats) that calls from pro-gun Democratic voters to their legislators would have had an impact. But with the exception of 2 or 3, all the Democratic legislators voted for gun control.

I still like my line "Gun Control - Where 'D' is a passing grade ...."
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Old 03-21-2013, 2:40 PM
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You don't have to change their minds. By making the pro-2A group more appealing on other issues, you steal members away from the anti-2A group, thus overwhelming said anti-2A group.
That may or may not be true, and doing so risks alienating your more ardent supporters. Would a pro-choice group net greater support if they moderated their positions to attract some pro-lifer support? Can those folks be relied upon to go to the polls?

Is a large group of committed voters more important than having broader, but more shallow support? Elections are determined by who shows up, not by who has a bigger audiences.

I think these are all things that have to be considered.
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Old 03-21-2013, 2:47 PM
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I work for the University of California, and that is just not true.
I'm obviously not talking about UC. It's not true for UC. But where did I mention UC? That's right - I didn't.

Try to see beyond your own circles once in a while.

Conservatives have the academia they deserve. They are constantly bashing it, and they see it as an unworthy occupation. So few conservatives get into it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You reap what you sow.
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Old 03-21-2013, 2:53 PM
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To be fair, academia comes up with wiz-bang ideas like: "Banning guns will reduce crime"


When it comes right down to it, academia is best suited for people that would starve to death if they had to work for a living.

Last edited by five.five-six; 03-21-2013 at 2:56 PM..
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Old 03-21-2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
To be fair, academia comes up with wiz-bang ideas like: "Banning guns will reduce crime"


When it comes right down to it, academia is best suited for people that would starve to death if they had to work for a living.
Thanks for making my point.
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Old 03-21-2013, 3:08 PM
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What? that academia is inundated with idiots that make a living telling each other that they are smart? Seriously, if you have no ambition to do anything with your life, jsut stay in school your whole life

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Old 03-21-2013, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
To be fair, academia comes up with wiz-bang ideas like: "Banning guns will reduce crime"


When it comes right down to it, academia is best suited for people that would starve to death if they had to work for a living.
Or silly things like "self esteem". Don't hurt a kids feelings now by giving them a poor grade for poor work. Or...you can't have winners and losers in sports or in life, it hurts those on the losing side. Or one I heard today. No more honor roll in school, it will make the kids who failed to make the list feel bad. Or "you can't bring b day invites to a class room for your child, because the ones who don't get them will be hurt". Self esteem was a pointy headed academic theory that has done more harm than good, just like all the others concocted theories. Academic exercises put into effect for social engineering purposes. When they fail or the latest and greatest theory comes out, better believe they will implement it and to hell with the consequences.
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Old 03-21-2013, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
That may or may not be true, and doing so risks alienating your more ardent supporters. Would a pro-choice group net greater support if they moderated their positions to attract some pro-lifer support? Can those folks be relied upon to go to the polls?

Is a large group of committed voters more important than having broader, but more shallow support? Elections are determined by who shows up, not by who has a bigger audiences.

I think these are all things that have to be considered.
Good points. None of these issues have easy, clear answers. Regarding turnout, I'd say it depends on the district. If you have low turnout (compared to the other party, or compared to past election cycles) among your core voters in a given district, then go after that. If your turnout is about the same, then maybe look at stealing voters away from the other party.
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Old 03-21-2013, 3:25 PM
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Wow.. this thread is still going strong.

I gave up posting since both sides are pretty set on their opinions. I gave mine. Folks gave theirs. In the end, pro-2A supporters can't persuade anyone to admit anything that might even come close to them doing anything wrong.

I joined Calguns because I thought everyone shared the same passion I had about the 2nd Amendment. CGN have given me more info about firearms and the struggles to protect 2A. Even met great Calgunners from the Marketplace & local range meets. Surprised really when I see someone who is on CALGUNS who places the 2nd Amendment a secondary issue for his/her beliefs. Not wrong or right.. everyone has the to their beliefs.
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Old 03-21-2013, 4:32 PM
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I'm obviously not talking about UC. It's not true for UC. But where did I mention UC? That's right - I didn't.

Try to see beyond your own circles once in a while.

Conservatives have the academia they deserve. They are constantly bashing it, and they see it as an unworthy occupation. So few conservatives get into it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You reap what you sow.
What do you mean by "conservative"?

I'm working at a public university after having completed graduate school (which included helping teach undergraduates) and am about to go to school again for another several years. I support free markets and reducing the size of government. Heck, if it were up to my I'd fire myself and eliminate the public education altogether but since they keep paying me I keep working here.

And yes, many UC professors hold radical Left views and are not afraid to indoctrinate their students with them. In turn, the students end up becoming radical Left graduate students, and they become radical Left professors, and so on and so forth.
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Old 03-21-2013, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
No, of course you're not.

And yet I have NEVER seen you take such a strident position regarding alienating people and partisanship in any of the numerous threads wherein the comments are made that 'Republicans who stand by the core beliefs of the party are harmful and our enemy and need to be purged because they are ignorant.'

Explain to me how saying that people who vote based on other liberal issues and not just 2A rights is alienating and divisive but saying that people who vote on conservative issues and not just 2A rights are detrimental to the cause and need to smarten up is not.

While you're at it, explain why I never see you get this indignant and offended when people make those posts about Repub/conservatives but when the same comment is made regarding Dem/liberals you're all over it.

Glad to see that you are so against partisanship...
Kestryll for emperor? Oh, wait, we already have one of those...

I still like the way that you think.
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Old 03-21-2013, 5:08 PM
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So in the last election our choices for president were a guy who would in all probability appoint justices to the US Supreme Court who were not overly enthusiastic about the Second Amendment (although after Heller and McDonald they have to be quite circumspect because gun rights are now civil rights).

The other party's nominee said he would appoint justices to the US Supreme Court who would overturn Roe v Wade and he was adamantly opposed to gay marriage.

Now you know why I did not vote for either of them. I am not alone. The fastest growing political party in California is Decline to State and as both political parties lose market share, politics is going to become not mobilizing party partisans but forming coalitions of both independents and party partisans around particular issues. Thus the battle for gun rights is going to be a battle for the hearts and minds of the middle -- the independents. Turning away gun rights supporters who disagree on other issues is like shooting yourself in the foot.

I believe it was Jesus who said something along the lines of "He who is not against us is for us!" We would do well to heed that admonition if we are to win.
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