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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:47 AM
RugerFan777 RugerFan777 is offline
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Default Tired of all the so called Pro-gun democrats complaining all the time

"But I am a pro-gun democrat who is not a single issue voter, I will vote Democrat no matter how anti-gun they are, all they have to do is say they are pro-hunting etc, I want my free money, gay rights, etc"
Sorry my friend, then, you are a anti-gunner! You have chosen, now live with your choices. I don't ever want to hear you complain again about gun bills, you want them, that's the way you voted.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU VOTED FOR!

LIVE WITH IT!
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:49 AM
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amen.
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Old 03-20-2013, 9:53 AM
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In B4 "you're being divisive and we need all the friends we can get" post.

There's a reason Special Forces indoctrination courses are tough;because when the flag flies its better to have a crew of 10 solid guys then 100 weak azz liars.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
In B4 "you're being divisive and we need all the friends we can get" post.

There's a reason Special Forces indoctrination courses are tough;because when the flag flies its better to have a crew of 10 solid guys then 100 weak azz liars.
No offense, but you guys comparing yourself to Special Forces guys is just laughable.

This is not a battle. It's a cold war. And wars don't get just won on the ground. They're executed thanks to strategy, diplomacy, and alliances.

Alienating people with this kind of partisan talk is accomplishing nothing. Take your venting to OT where it belongs.

And by the way, I am not a Democrat.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:18 AM
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Alienating people with this kind of partisan talk is accomplishing nothing. Take your venting to OT where it belongs.

And by the way, I am not a Democrat.
No, of course you're not.

And yet I have NEVER seen you take such a strident position regarding alienating people and partisanship in any of the numerous threads wherein the comments are made that 'Republicans who stand by the core beliefs of the party are harmful and our enemy and need to be purged because they are ignorant.'

Explain to me how saying that people who vote based on other liberal issues and not just 2A rights is alienating and divisive but saying that people who vote on conservative issues and not just 2A rights are detrimental to the cause and need to smarten up is not.

While you're at it, explain why I never see you get this indignant and offended when people make those posts about Repub/conservatives but when the same comment is made regarding Dem/liberals you're all over it.

Glad to see that you are so against partisanship...
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:22 AM
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No, of course you're not.

And yet I have NEVER seen you take such a strident position regarding alienating people and partisanship in any of the numerous threads wherein the comments are made that 'Republicans who stand by the core beliefs of the party are harmful and our enemy and need to be purged because they are ignorant.'

Explain to me how saying that people who vote based on other liberal issues and not just 2A rights is alienating and divisive but saying that people who vote on conservative issues and not just 2A rights are detrimental to the cause and need to smarten up is not.

While you're at it, explain why I never see you get this indignant and offended when people make those posts about Repub/conservatives but when the same comment is made regarding Dem/liberals you're all over it.

Glad to see that you are so against partisanship...
You will never see a single post of mine bashing Republicans in general. You just won't.

You will however find posts of mine denouncing the backwards positions espoused by the current GOP leadership, which I find divisive and alienating.

Like many here, I regret the fact that Goldwater types and libertarians have been relegated to a minority in the current GOP lineup.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:23 AM
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No offense, but you guys comparing yourself to Special Forces guys is just laughable..
I'll take that as a compliment, coming from a comedian such as yourself.



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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
This is not a battle. It's a cold war. And wars don't get just won on the ground. They're executed thanks to strategy, diplomacy, and alliances.
.
Wars are sometimes lost because of traitors and sell outs. There are 90 million gun owners in America. Only 5 million of which are NRA members. I say we gun owners collectively have what could be called a serious "crisis of motivation".


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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Alienating people with this kind of partisan talk is accomplishing nothing. Take your venting to OT where it belongs.

And by the way, I am not a Democrat.
You cannot alienate someone who never shared your perspective to begin with. There are tens of millions of gun owners who are literally voting for the enemy.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:23 AM
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Amen, brother. No such thing as a pro-2A Democrat.
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  #9  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
I'll take that as a compliment, coming from a comedian such as yourself.
You're welcome. Glad I can make you laugh once in a while.

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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
You cannot alienate someone who never shared your perspective to begin with. There are tens of millions of gun owners who are literally voting for the enemy.
On this we I agree.

It's just that I consider - like you, I'm sure - the 2A to be a civil right. And I'd like to see more Republican candidates espouse other civil rights as well as part of their platform. Because then the GOP can become relevant again - not just nationally, but statewide. That would be a win for everyone, since Democrats in this state (and a majority in Congress) have abandoned the RKBA cause.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
You will never see a single post of mine bashing Republicans in general. You just won't.

You will however find posts of mine denouncing the backwards positions espoused by the current GOP leadership, which I find divisive and alienating.

Like many here, I regret the fact that Goldwater types and libertarians have been relegated to a minority in the current GOP lineup.
All very nice but does absolutely nothing to answer my questions.

Why is it you are so vociferous about how divisive and partisan this thread and others like it regarding liberal/Dems is and so silent in other threads saying the same or worse about conservative/Repub voters?

You've sidestepped the question quite nicely while managing to get in a dig at people who agree with the GOP's positions, apparently they are 'backwards'.
It's good thing you don't want to be 'divisive and alienating'...

So, as to the question asked twice now.
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:33 AM
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All very nice but does absolutely nothing to answer my questions.

Why is it you are so vociferous about how divisive and partisan this thread and others like it regarding liberal/Dems is and so silent in other threads saying the same or worse about conservative/Repub voters?

You've sidestepped the question quite nicely while managing to get in a dig at people who agree with the GOP's positions, apparently they are 'backwards'.
It's good thing you don't want to be 'divisive and alienating'...

So, as to the question asked twice now.
Huh... I really don't see that many threads ripping apart Republicans or conservatives - whereas lib/Dem-bashing is a daily sport here. When it's about what I deplore about the current GOP leadership, Bill usually does a good job at it, and doesn't seem to need anyone's help.
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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YIt's just that I consider - like you, I'm sure - the 2A to be a civil right. And I'd like to see more Republican candidates espouse other civil rights as well as part of their platform. Because then the GOP can become relevant again .... {snip} ... a win for everyone, since Democrats in this state (and a majority in Congress) have abandoned the RKBA cause.

There is truth to this. Our current gunrights debacle in CA is directly traceable to two key items:
- term limits;
- failure of CA GOP to be remotely relevant/winning.

And I'm a hardass 'punch the hippies/hunt the unionist' rightie.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:36 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
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It's just that I consider - like you, I'm sure - the 2A to be a civil right..
Here we come to an unfortunate intersection with reality. Very few Americans have actually READ the Constitution. Lord knows public schools don't teach it anymore. Most voters wouldn't know what a civil right was if it was named Fat Tony and it drove a Cadillac.

As such, we are considered nutcases for suggesting firearms are beyond the powers of government to regulate.Until we fix that CULTURAL problem-if its even possible-it won't matter what letter is in front of the politican's name.




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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
And I'd like to see more Republican candidates espouse other civil rights as well as part of their platform. .
And I'd like to buy a full auto MP7 via mail order from Sears. Tis' not to be im afraid. If the Republicans emulate the Democrats, its only going to motivate hardcore conservatives to stay at home. Liberals won't vote for the "imitation" Democrat when the real deal is on the same ballot.

If the GOP stays true to its conservative roots, it'll be forever pilloried by a leftist media.They're in a no win scenario as far as this goes.





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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Because then the GOP can become relevant again - not just nationally, but statewide. That would be a win for everyone, since Democrats in this state (and a majority in Congress) have abandoned the RKBA cause.
The problem is that people, in general, don't give a sh-t about the 2nd Amendment. Folks will talk a good game if called out on it, but come Election Day "molon laabe" goes out the window. If the 2nd Amendment were a true "cornerstone" issue, even the Democrats would steer clear of the matter.

For an example of what I mean by this, I cite my own state as a good case.South Dakota is represented by a Democrat senator, and when I wrote him I got a letter back which had more dodgy doublespeak then a shipping crate of paperback editions of 1984. See, he WANTED to send me the same letter Feinsten sends you guys-but he knows in South Dakota we like our guns, and WILL recall his a-- if he steps out of line in this regard.

That's the way things need to be nationwide-and its possible, IF we establish the RKBA as a cultural foundation. If its considered just another hobby with no civil relevance, we're screwed.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:45 AM
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Huh... I really don't see that many threads ripping apart Republicans or conservatives - whereas lib/Dem-bashing is a daily sport here. When it's about what I deplore about the current GOP leadership, Bill usually does a good job at it, and doesn't seem to need anyone's help.
Really, you don't see it?

And yet you're enamored with Bill's continued posts insulting people who agree with the GOP's position and calling people who vote based as much on other conservative issues as they do on 2A the problem and blaming them for lost rights and such.

But you don't see it and are offended at the partisanship in this thread because of calling people who vote based as much on other liberal issues as they do on 2A the problem and blaming them for lost rights and such and are okay with referring to people who share the GOP's positions as 'backwards'.

But you don't see it and it's okay because, well, people pick on dem/libs so it's 'justice'.

And again, you never answered the question, why is this thread alienating and divisive and others like the ones you yourself mention are not?
Why are you not as vociferous in condemning those threads too?
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  #15  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:47 AM
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"But I am a pro-gun democrat who is not a single issue voter, I will vote Democrat no matter how anti-gun they are, all they have to do is say they are pro-hunting etc, I want my free money, gay rights, etc"
Sorry my friend, then, you are a anti-gunner! You have chosen, now live with your choices. I don't ever want to hear you complain again about gun bills, you want them, that's the way you voted.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU VOTED FOR!

LIVE WITH IT!
I am a democrat, and I also am a gun owner. What of it?

Gay rights
yes, I believe in Gay rights, although it goes against my Catholic upbringing. Is discriminating against a segment of the population ok (ie discrimation against blacks, discrimination against whites, discrimination against the disabled, etc...)? IMO, discrimination against any segment of our legal population is not right.


Free Money
I believe money is needed in order to help TEMPORARILY and NOT continued support. I dont believe in welfare for those that prove that they do NOT want to find work or improve themselves, but I do believe welfare to help those who prove that they WILL work to improve their situation.

I also believe in some federal grants to help legal students attend a higher education. Some families just do not have the resources to send their kid to college. Obviously there is not enough resources to give everyone a grant. This is where the student needs to prove that they have the drive and the want to take advantage of a higher education.


Taxes
Taxes suck, but it is a necessary evil. Raising taxes is ok ONLY if other avenues have been exhausted first. You cant just say no new taxes ever. In the same token, raising taxes should NEVER be the first one suggested.


Yes, when I was young, my parents came here legally and as new legal immigrants, they had it tough. They had to get assistance when they first came. Getting this 'free money' bugged my parents all to hell. They hated getting handouts, but knew they needed help to establish themselves. It took about a year for them to find decent jobs and was extremely happy to get off the assistance. For these programs, I am grateful. Like I said, I believe these programs should help TEMPORARILY and NOT support indefinitely.

We can go topic by topic, and the only thing that we'll agree on is that we would disagree with most. That is fine. But do not associate a democrat with being anti-gun, lazy welfare recipient. That is just pure ignorance.

As for me, my parents lived check to check so therefore did not have money for me for college. It took me 6 years to get my first 4 year degree working 30hours a week to pay for school. I busted my a_s_s to get my degrees.

Yes I am a democrat, but I do not vote along democratic lines. I vote for the candidate I feel is the best amongst the choices.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:50 AM
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Amen, brother. No such thing as a pro-2A Democrat.

What? Since I am a democrat, then I dont believe in the 2A. Riiiiight.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:50 AM
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I am a democrat, and I also am a gun owner. What of it? .
Excellent.

In 1 paragraph or less, without using the words "divisive" , "feel", or "resentful" or permutations thereof, can you answer this question.

How can you rationalize ownership of a firearm and support of the 2nd Amendment when you identify with a party which has gun control included in its platform?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:54 AM
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I wonder how the "strategy, diplomacy, and alliances" the Social Democrats and Revolutionaly Socialists had with the Bolsheviks worked out...

Probably about as well as the "strategy, diplomacy, and alliances" the conservatives and reactionary right had with the National Socialists.

In both cases, after they dealt with their common enemies, the Bolsheviks and National Socialists then proceeded to eliminate their former "allies" on the left in Russia and on the right in Germany.

Your enemies are your enemies. Trying to find common ground with them and lick their azzes will not make them love you.


And as far as "gay rights" - first off, I'm not "anti-gay". I have friends and a couple of relatives who are gay. On the whole, it's not a lifestyle I would choose and I find some aspects of it a little disturbing, some sickening even. However, as long as someone is not trying to force this lifestyle on me and keeps the more controversial aspects of it BEHIND CLOSED DOORS where they belong (as so some aspects, especially the more extreme and bizzarre ones, of some heterosexual relationships), I really don't care. Our first concepts of Anglo-Saxon law deal with the rights of property, contract, and inheritance, and I feel that for law abiding citizens, regardless of their sexual orientation, these rights - along with the more recent concept of "civil rights" (including the 2nd Amendment) are inviolable. Whatever you own, whatever you work for, whatever benefits you have, are your private property that you earned. If I want to leave my home or pension benefits to my spouse or other partner - male or female - that's my business, not the government's or some church's.

However, the problem with "gay rights" as espoused by the militant sodomite faction of the gay community - which faction is generally accepted and backed by the other members of that community at large - is that they are not happy with simply gaining and protecting their rights and equality. No, they have to force their views on others and curtail other's rights and freedoms so that they may freely exercise their own personal proclivities and perversions. I'm no longer Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, and don't believe in the god of those religions. However, I feel that those who do are entitled to do so without being forced to kiss azz to the homosexual agenda. I don't think homosexuality is a sin, but those who do are entitled to feel that way without fear of being imprisoned for some hate crime. Neither do I want my children being forced to learn in school how being "gay" is an acceptable lifestyle and choice any more than I want them being taught that if someone is gay, some vengeful hairy thunderer is going to torment them and roast them forever in a fiery pit. If it turns out that that is their preference, I can accept that. Kind of like my daughter smoking cigarettes - I don't like it, but I'm not going to abuse her or sever my relationship with her over it.

Our First Amendment rights of freedom of religion, speech, and association are not negotiable or adjustable to spare someone's poor little feelings from being hurt, under penalty of legal punishment. If I don't like gays, blacks, Jews, Christians, Albanians, Free Masons, moped drivers, badminton players, samba dancers, Norwegians, or vegans, that is my right. If I want to voice my dislike of them and not associate with them, that is also my right. As long as I am not actually hurting anyone or infringing (funny how some people can not understand the meaning of this word) on their legitimate rights.

And words like "equality", "civil rights", "human rights", etc. are almost always code names and buzz words for the abuse of the true Constitutional, Civil, and Human rights of Caucasians and Christians.

And just because a few members of the gay community or the Democrat Party also own a gun or like to hunt ducks, doesn't mean that we are BFF and will be taking long hot showers together until late into the night. Hell, I can think of one or two social or political issues where I would have common ground with Karl Marx or Adolf Hitler...that doesn't mean that I would surrender all my other principles and beliefs to make common cause with them and ally myself with their political systems and parties to see these issues resolved.

People who think "the Democrats are against guns, but I agree with them on a lot of other things" are like those who think that "Hitler's views on Jews are a little extreme but I agree with his outlook on social legislation and national defense, so I will join the Nazi Party" or "Sure Stalin is a little hard on those Ukrainians who what to hold on to their little patch of dirt, but once we attain the true socialism that Marx promised us, we will all have peace, plenty, and prosperity, so I'm going to side with the Communists." Like the Nazis and Communists, the Democrats have a radical agenda and a demented and deranged world view they want to force on everyone around them, and when in power will not hesitate to abuse, imprison, rob, and murder those who do not share this insane agenda of theirs.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:57 AM
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In 1 paragraph or less, without using the words "divisive" , "feel", or "resentful" or permutations thereof, can you answer this question.
How can you rationalize ownership of a firearm and support of the 2nd Amendment when you identify with a party which has gun control included in its platform?
Being a democrat or republican does not mean you strictly believe in "everything" republican or democrat. There are other platforms as well. As a whole, I lean more democrat. Just because I lean democrat, it does not mean I am anti-gun. In my first post above, I gave a couple of examples of my views as to why I lean democrat.




edit: i misread your comment/question. I am revising what i wrote to specifically answer your question.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus von W. View Post
I wonder how the "strategy, diplomacy, and alliances" the Social Democrats and Revolutionaly Socialists had with the Bolsheviks worked out...

Probably about as well as the "strategy, diplomacy, and alliances" the conservatives and reactionary right had with the National Socialists.

In both cases, after they dealt with their common enemies, the Bolsheviks and National Socialists then proceeded to eliminate their former "allies" on the left in Russia and on the right in Germany.

Your enemies are your enemies. Trying to find common ground with them and lick their azzes will not make them love you.
You of all people know Hitler was defeated because the Allies struck a deal with Stalin.

Now I'm not going to look for an analogy here with our fight. Because I do see it more as a "cold war" than a conventional one.

The Cold War was not won on the ground. It was won with ideas and diplomacy.

We need to get our ideas about the RKBA to enter the mainstream, not remain on the fringe.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Excellent.

In 1 paragraph or less, without using the words "divisive" , "feel", or "resentful" or permutations thereof, can you answer this question.

How can you rationalize ownership of a firearm and support of the 2nd Amendment when you identify with a party which has gun control included in its platform?
People don't vote based on one criterion. It would be foolish if people did. But that is exactly what you want people to do.

By your statements if you own a gun you should vote Rep. If only politics were that black and white.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:14 AM
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First off, party politics is a silly concept. Honestly, I wish we could get rid of the system entirely. Second, I voted mostly democrat in the last election (I didn't vote for Feinstein because of my 2A beliefs). Instead of ostracizing left-leaning owners of firearms, perhaps you should try to get them to participate in the process of protecting 2A rights. Because yes... we DO need as much support as we can get.

I disagree with most democrats on 2A issues but it is hard for me to vote republican or libertarian because I am vehemently opposed to corporate welfare and protecting the mega-rich. I also believe in things like universal healthcare and protecting the environment (maybe its just me but I don't like being able to light my tap water on fire and I think it is extremely short sighted to destroy our biodiversity levels in the name of turning a profit). Part of the reason that I believe these things is because I believe in protecting the individual citizen against forces that are greater than they are. This is the same reason that I believe in protecting the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment is a protection against government tyranny. An unarmed populace cannot defend themselves so we need the Second Amendment to tip the scales in our favor.

To say that I can't complain about 2A issues because "I voted for this" is utterly ridiculous. Voting is a multifaceted issue. I don't vote for candidates simply because they have an "R" or a "D" next to their name. I look at their positions and I weigh the issues. If 2A rights were such a big deal to republicans, maybe they should abandon some of their more asinine positions like financial sector deregulation or shift funding from bloated DOD contracts and invest more in education. It would certainly make it easier for people like me to vote for them. I really hate voting. Every time I do it, I feel like I have to ask myself if I would rather give up my 2A rights or give my money to Goldman Sachs. I would prefer to do neither but that doesn't seem to be an option.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RugerFan777 View Post
"But I am a pro-gun democrat who is not a single issue voter, I will vote Democrat no matter how anti-gun they are, all they have to do is say they are pro-hunting etc, I want my free money, gay rights, etc"
Sorry my friend, then, you are a anti-gunner! You have chosen, now live with your choices. I don't ever want to hear you complain again about gun bills, you want them, that's the way you voted.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU VOTED FOR!

LIVE WITH IT!
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2013, 11:27 AM
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My OPINION:

Being that this is a gun-rights oriented forum, the overall question should always (and only) be "what are you DOING to protect/advance the cause of 2A rights".

In this place, I honestly don't care what your religion or politics are otherwise, because I think (not feel) that the 2A is the linchpin which holds together any notion of "rights" in the first place.

Wanna argue about a bunch of other stuff ... great. There are all sorts of forums dedicated to anything you want to discuss ... please go there and do so.

My concern is protecting the right to argue about all that other stuff, along with a number of other rights and the 2A is the teeth of that protection. Lose the 2A ... it all goes, period.

If you are a Democrat, it is senseless to argue that your party is currently a friend of 2A rights. It's clearly the opposite case, and no amount of word-twisting and nuance explains that away. Your position should be one of correcting that condition on the merits of that issue alone. Period.

If you are a Republican, it serves no purpose to bait 2A-supporting Democrats regarding other issues with which you disagree. Work with them on the 2A so that you can retain the right to argue with them about all the other stuff.

This makes for hard choices. If you are a Democrat, and continue to vote for Democrats, you may want to rethink your priorities. If you think anything is more important than the defense of basic, enumerated rights, then I submit that this is the first preconception which has to go.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2013, 11:33 AM
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Hard for me to believe so-called "pro-2A" Democrats advocate unity for the struggle to safeguard the 2nd Amendment. When they themselves point out that their vote is influenced more so on other issues.

They would vote for an anti-2A candidate because they believe on separate issues that candidate stands for. That doesn't resemble a pro-2A supporter. Everyone who votes must accept te consequences of their vote. You vote for an anti-2A Democrat, you just voted against the 2nd Amendment.
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2013, 11:39 AM
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Hard for me to believe so-called "pro-2A" Democrats advocate unity for the struggle to safeguard the 2nd Amendment. When they themselves point out that their vote is influenced more so on other issues.

They would vote for an anti-2A candidate because they believe on separate issues that candidate stands for. That doesn't resemble a pro-2A supporter. Everyone who votes must accept te consequences of their vote. You vote for an anti-2A Democrat, you just voted against the 2nd Amendment.

Let me get this straight, when you vote, you strictly look at whomever is pro vs anti 2A, right? You do not care about any other issue like the US economic fiscal health, immigration, taxes, energy policies, education, health care, social security, medicare, etc, etc...

Ok. From a pro-2A standpoint and if the only issue in our country is 2A, then I guess you are 100% correct.

IMO, for me - right or wrong, when I vote for a candidate, I try to the best of my capability, to balance all the issues that I feel are important (yes including the protection of 2A). There are times I vote D. There are times I vote R.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:44 AM
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What about us non democrat liberals who not only are pro 2nd Amendment rights, but also don't vote along any party lines and don't vote for any politician who's a threat to not just gun rights, but who threaten any of our rights? In fact the last President I voted for was Ronald Reagan. Every other election for various reasons I just skipped past that part of the ballot. What about us?

Separate question: What about those folks who are democrats and gun owners and who may have voted for politicians who ended up attacking gun rights, but at the same time are members of the NRA or have given money to other organizations defending gun rights? What about them?

What about folks who voted for republicans who voted for the constitution gutting patriot act and the several other similar acts which followed? What about those folks?

Here's my opinion for what its worth. While I might not like the choice some of these folks made at the ballot box. However I do understand this. I don't think its wise to alienate anyone who's on our side of the argument. If someone who voted for politicians who are now attacking gun rights, but, does not like the fact who they voted for is attacking gun rights. Then that to me is an opportunity to try and educate that person as to why they don't need to continue to support those politicians. Especially since economically speaking BOTH parties represent big money interests, not working people or smaller business people interests. These are people who I would want to see more of because of the potential of anti gun politicians not getting re-elected.

My two cents....
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:48 AM
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I take a cabdidate's stance on 2A equally as important as all other issues. Luckily, for me conservative candidates reflect my beliefs on most issues. I, generally, will vote republican but many of those in California aren't that much better than Liberals.

Someone like Rand Paul or Ted Cruz would get my vote. McCain & Romney wouldn't.
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  #29  
Old 03-20-2013, 11:55 AM
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The below post is just an observation on my part. Nothing more...

I've said this in other posts...this thread is a good example of why our US government has been unable to get any real progress. Most, if not all of us, on CGN are gun owners and believe in the 2A, but yet, it seems we are so divided.

What is the solution? Compromise? I wish I knew. If I knew, I'd be one rich and powerful politician.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bsandoc40 View Post
Hard for me to believe so-called "pro-2A" Democrats advocate unity for the struggle to safeguard the 2nd Amendment. When they themselves point out that their vote is influenced more so on other issues.

They would vote for an anti-2A candidate because they believe on separate issues that candidate stands for. That doesn't resemble a pro-2A supporter. Everyone who votes must accept te consequences of their vote. You vote for an anti-2A Democrat, you just voted against the 2nd Amendment.


So what you are saying is if someone who wants to help defend gun rights advocates unity with others who are defending gun rights should just go pound sand if they voted for a politician who is now attacking gun rights?

Hmmmm lets see. Lets chase away folks who wish to help defend gun rights. How genius /sarcasm

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:02 PM
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Help pro-2A supporters fight the same politicians you voted in. Yeah, that makes a lot sense.
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2013, 12:08 PM
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Help pro-2A supporters fight the same politicians you voted in. Yeah, that makes a lot sense.

You mean that they voted in. I don't vote for any politician who has disrespected the constitution. Apparently from your own words you will vote for a politician who has disrespected the constitution in other aspects. I myself don't do that.

But back to you point. YES it does make a lot of sense. Its just that you're allowing hate to blind you from why it does indeed make a lot of sense. Lets see if you can figure out why it does indeed make a whole lot of sense.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:09 PM
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So what you are saying is if someone who wants to help defend gun rights advocates unity with others who are defending gun rights should just go pound sand if they voted for a politician who is now attacking gun rights?
I think it's enough to point out the fact that their stated position is counter to any notion of good sense, logic or sanity. You cannot pretend that you are in favor of something while simultaneously enabling those who would take it away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippies_Have_Guns_Too View Post
Hmmmm lets see. Lets chase away folks who wish to help defend gun rights. How genius /sarcasm
It's more like "Let's call out people who like to pretend they want to (theoretically) "defend" gun rights, but consistently act (through their vote) in getting them violated or taken away." If an attempt to simply make sense chases them away, then the problem is theirs. Lip service is not support.

You cannot - by way of extreme example - pretend that you are really "Pro Jewish", but voted for Hitler because you aren't a single-issue voter, and like how he made the trains run on time. At some time or another you have to decide what is really important.

Voting for Barbara Boxer "because she's pro-choice" (when no one honestly expects the issue to come up) but ignoring the 2A stance (when it predictably would come up) reveals an inability to think clearly.

It is the most basic tenet of logic that "A" is not equal to "non-A".
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:12 PM
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this thread is a good example of why our US government has been unable to get any real progress.
You say that like it is a bad thing?

For many decades now, "gridlock" has been the friend of the common man. The most egregious abuses of power have always come when one (any one) party controls both chambers and the executive office (i.e. when there is 'consensus')

It was Mark Twain who said, 'No man's life, liberty, or property is safe, while Congress is in session.'

That may have been humor, but it was not a joke. And he said that more than a century ago.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:19 PM
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Why do people talk about how they are evaluating the best candidates in a field rather than voting straight letter after the name?

After all once they are elected they are simply going to vote the party whip regardless of what they said/believed when trying to get (re)elected.

It shouldn't be this way, we should be selecting a representative, but that went out the window way way long ago.

Its really a case of it doesn't matter about the name before the letter or who the candidate is or what they believe, as organized right now you are voting a slate/platform.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:23 PM
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I think it's enough to point out the fact that their stated position is counter to any notion of good sense, logic or sanity. You cannot pretend that you are in favor of something while simultaneously enabling those who would take it away.

It's more like "Let's call out people who like to pretend they want to (theoretically) "defend" guns rights, but consistently act substantively (through their vote) in getting them violated or taken away.

It is the most basic tenet of logic that "A" is not equal to "non-A".

You are only making an assumption that they are "pretending" to be in favor of protecting gun rights. And why would you alienate away someone who does not like the way the politician they voted for is acting toward gun rights? That makes no sense. Instead THAT is exactly the person we WANT to have on our side now. WHY? Because it is THEIR votes which are required in putting that politician back into office again. Certainly that politician isn't getting put into office with our votes. So why would you choose to pass up an opportunity that could get anti gun politicians voted out of office? And isn't that in of itself helping the anti politicians? Food for thought.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RugerFan777 View Post
"But I am a pro-gun democrat who is not a single issue voter, I will vote Democrat no matter how anti-gun they are, all they have to do is say they are pro-hunting etc, I want my free money, gay rights, etc"
Sorry my friend, then, you are a anti-gunner! You have chosen, now live with your choices. I don't ever want to hear you complain again about gun bills, you want them, that's the way you voted.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU VOTED FOR!

LIVE WITH IT!
I am tired of all the conservatives that keep putting people like Reagan on a pedestal claiming him to be such a great politician when in reality he hurt California pretty bad. And never mind the fact he took away our gun rights.

Or my favorite is how all the gun laws in California are because of liberals when the majority of them were signed into law by republicans.

Like when they kicked out Davis and brought in Arnold. You replaced a democrat for a republican and we lost more gun rights.

So live with the fact that the republicans have taken away a lot of our gun rights in California. You voted for them!
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:27 PM
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Aaahhh, another witch hunt thread.

Consider these thoughts:
  1. Republicans will likely support 2A rights better than Democrats.
  2. While it may be novel or even noble to vote for change, a vote for Libertarian, Independant, Tea Party or other may just be taking a vote away from a Republican (see #1 above).
  3. Republicans need to do a better job attracting voters (see #2 above), whether from those voting for a change (see #2 above), or middle class Democrats, who just may be pro 2A, pro death penalty, etc..
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:28 PM
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You of all people know Hitler was defeated because the Allies struck a deal with Stalin.

Now I'm not going to look for an analogy here with our fight. Because I do see it more as a "cold war" than a conventional one.

The Cold War was not won on the ground. It was won with ideas and diplomacy.

We need to get our ideas about the RKBA to enter the mainstream, not remain on the fringe.

It's funny how you talk about the National Socialists being defeated because we saved Communism....as someone of central and eastern European descent, I don't see that as a good thing. Kind of like "yeah, well we had to join up with Ricky Ramirez, John Wayne Gacey, and Jeffery Dahmer to save them from Charlie Manson."

Yeah, a couple of my relatives who were Jewish or Communists got locked up and died - not executed or murdered, but from disease and lack of medication...the same as my relatives who were fighting in the German armed forces at the time. Many, many, many more of my relatives were slaughtered by the Communists for holding the silly beliefs that they had rights and freedoms. So as someone whose relatives were persecuted, imprisoned in concentration camps, and died under both Hitler and Stalin, the truth is that if those were my only 2 choices, I would pick Hitler. Hitler was dying, and like the authoritarian governments in Yugoslavia or Spain, had National Socialism even survived the death of it's founder and leader, it would have had to transform itself into something more moderate and internationally acceptable.

Having said that, I'm sure I will be attacked and called things like "racist", "Nazi", "bigot", "hater", etc.

And then you go on about "winning the Cold War"...guess what - had we not bailed Stalin's *** out and handed him half of Europe so that he and his Communist successors could continue their campaign of genocide and mass murder unhindered, there would have been no Cold War.

The "Cold War" analogy further fails because, excepting of course for us silly Europeans who your Roosevelt handed over to his buddy Uncle Joe, We (as Americans) were here and They (as Communists) were there. In the case of Us as Freedom Loving Gun Owners and Them (Democrats) as Gun-hating Neo-Bolshevik Marxists, they are here, they are in control, and their population is increasing much more rapidly than ours.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:29 PM
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I am tired of all the conservatives that keep putting people like Reagan on a pedestal claiming him to be such a great politician when in reality he hurt California pretty bad. And never mind the fact he took away our gun rights.

Or my favorite is how all the gun laws in California are because of liberals when the majority of them were signed into law by republicans.

Like when they kicked out Davis and brought in Arnold. You replaced a democrat for a republican and we lost more gun rights.

So live with the fact that the republicans have taken away a lot of our gun rights in California. You voted for them!

Good points ChrisC.

I think one of our biggest problems we need to overcome is this polarizing tribalism like mentality between political parties. The founding fathers again show us how wise they were when they warned us against "political factions".
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