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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 03-21-2013, 7:47 PM
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Yeah, because GOP has done such a great job running campaigns over the last 5 years...
Nationally, the votes that have gone to whenever a GOP candidate loses than the sum total of all L-party candidates over decades.
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  #122  
Old 03-21-2013, 8:02 PM
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Nationally, the votes that have gone to whenever a GOP candidate loses than the sum total of all L-party candidates over decades.
You're right. Republicans actually have been losing a lot better than Libertarians. Good point...
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  #123  
Old 03-21-2013, 9:52 PM
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Heres my two cents, the Libertarian party takes a whole "respect my rights and leave me alone" stance. If you want a gun and dont have the intention of misusing it, then you should have every right to own it.
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  #124  
Old 03-22-2013, 12:29 AM
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Heres my two cents, the Libertarian party takes a whole "respect my rights and leave me alone" stance. If you want a gun and dont have the intention of misusing it, then you should have every right to own it.
Exactly! Now expand that to what you want to smoke, where you want to travel, and what you want to do in your bedroom, and I think you'll see that the Libertarian philosophy is morally superior to either the Republican or Democrat positions.
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  #125  
Old 03-22-2013, 5:10 AM
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Unregulated capitalism is dangerous to the entire planet.

The Libertarians prefer unregulated capitalism.

I won't support them.

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  #126  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:24 AM
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Unregulated capitalism is dangerous to the entire planet.

The Libertarians prefer unregulated capitalism.
How so? The free market is the best regulator there is, or ever will be. What's dangerous to the entire planet is allowing businesses to form cartels, and artificially inflate the costs of goods and services, like they do in this country with banking, health care, etc.

It's upsetting to see someone refer to the free market as "dangerous". A well regulated market leads to one thing, and one thing only: A lucrative black market!!!
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  #127  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:34 AM
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Libertarians staunchly support the Constitution,
and rock solid on the 2nd Amendment,
Libertarians live by the philosophy that a citizen should be
able to live his life a free man and according to his own
dictates, as long as he does not impinge on the rights of others,
of course there are differences on where that line is,
for instance some Libertarians do not support immigration laws,
because a person has the right to live where they please unmolested, or so the thinking goes,
others (such as myself) feel citizenship is a social pact, in which we agree to certain social arrangements for the good of society, such as paying taxes and serving in wartime for the defense of the country,
and believe in citizenship, laws that require aliens to apply and follow the law to become citizens, etc
property rights are important to the Libertarian way

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  #128  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post
What's dangerous to the entire planet is allowing businesses to form cartels, and artificially inflate the costs of goods and services, like they do in this country with banking, health care, etc.

[/B]
What is the libertarian plan to prevent this?

Serious question.
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  #129  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:42 AM
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What is the libertarian plan to prevent this?

Serious question.
Remove the government influence that is enabling that kind of behavior.
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  #130  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post
How so? The free market is the best regulator there is, or ever will be. What's dangerous to the entire planet is allowing businesses to form cartels, and artificially inflate the costs of goods and services, like they do in this country with banking, health care, etc.

It's upsetting to see someone refer to the free market as "dangerous". A well regulated market leads to one thing, and one thing only: A lucrative black market!!!
The problem is that unregulated free market often leads to monopolies or oligopolies through consolidation.

And that's no free market.

Personally, I don't think the free market is dangerous. Not at all. I just don't believe in a completely unregulated free market. I've seen the result in Eastern Europe, or you can just look at 19th century United States, and you will see the unwanted results of such "free markets".
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  #131  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:44 AM
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I think most libertarians recognize the need for a "night watchman" of sorts
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  #132  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Scot View Post
Remove the government influence that is enabling that kind of behavior.
Exactly. The major enabler of corporations gaining unfair competitive advantage is through the influence they exert over government. Specifically, by influencing the ways in which our government regulates commerce in extra-constitutional ways.

Remove most of that regulatory power and you remove the benefit of lobbying government by corporations.
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  #133  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:57 AM
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Libertarians aren't just better than Democrats, they're far better than the Republicans, too.
And thanks to independents and libertarians, Democrats always get elected. They have a great laugh watching you people put principle over discipline - which is why they win every time.
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  #134  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:11 AM
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And thanks to independents and libertarians, Democrats always get elected. They have a great laugh watching you people put principle over discipline - which is why they win every time.
Please explain in more detail your claim....
for example: You think independents & Libertarians help the Dems always win which elections?

Thanks
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  #135  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:21 AM
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Please explain in more detail your claim....
for example: You think independents & Libertarians help the Dems always win which elections?

Thanks
He is basically saying that Libertarians are splitting the Republican party, causing the general conservative movement to fracture and giving the perceived majority to the Democrats; thus allowing them to win elections.
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  #136  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:32 AM
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They are the same as every other view. I'll decide for me and you decide for you! We don't want a group of politicians and their sheep herds to sit around a debate what we are "allowed" to do or push an agenda of their personal beliefs as gospel or "the right way". Individualism is the core belief. I am free so I'll make my own choice and as long as I am not harming you or your property, you have absolutely zero say in my choices as a truly free American citizen and I'll respect your freedoms as well, particularly paying no mind to your moral, religious, personal, or ethical opinions/beliefs.

With respect to law, there only needs to be a few:
Don't kill/harm fellow free men/women.
Don't steel property that is not yours.
Yield to freedom as a fundamental overall right and its exercise thereof, in any personal dispute/argument that may arise.
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  #137  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:41 AM
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The two-party system is utterly corrupt,
the idea that you must vote the lesser of two evils simply doesn't cut it anymore,
one must vote for real candidates and face the music,
real change isn't going to happen overnight

sunaj
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  #138  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bobgengeskahn View Post
He is basically saying that Libertarians are splitting the Republican party, causing the general conservative movement to fracture and giving the perceived majority to the Democrats; thus allowing them to win elections.
I understand that, I would just like an example or two of this actually being the case. Also, his statement that Dems always win every election is obviously not true.
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  #139  
Old 03-22-2013, 9:45 AM
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The problem is that unregulated free market often leads to monopolies or oligopolies through consolidation.

And that's no free market.

Personally, I don't think the free market is dangerous. Not at all. I just don't believe in a completely unregulated free market. I've seen the result in Eastern Europe, or you can just look at 19th century United States, and you will see the unwanted results of such "free markets".
I'd argue that those situations are more a product of one company being favored by the government over another thanks to buy offs and cronyism.

Much like "pure communism", I'm pretty sure we've never had a "true" free market anywhere.

Unless you want to count the lower level black market type stuff, and that only seems to get bloody because there's no method of legal redress when two competitors have problems.
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  #140  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:06 AM
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  #141  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:10 AM
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  #142  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:16 AM
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And thanks to independents and libertarians, Democrats always get elected. They have a great laugh watching you people put principle over discipline - which is why they win every time.
You err in your belief that a Libertarian should automatically support a Republican.

Some Republicans I would vote for. But I can't really see a situation where I would vote for Rick Santorum or Michelle Bachmann.

Dems vs. GOP...two sides of the same coin.
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  #143  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:19 AM
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I LOVE this!
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  #144  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgengeskahn View Post
He is basically saying that Libertarians are splitting the Republican party, causing the general conservative movement to fracture and giving the perceived majority to the Democrats; thus allowing them to win elections.
Exactly. Look at Colorado and how thing changed there and what's happening now.
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  #145  
Old 03-23-2013, 5:59 AM
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I'm against "the free market." I prefer "the fair market" and I'll tell you why.

"The Free Market" is just code for letting bullies bully. It is a might makes right philosophy. That's fine for Ayn Rand's fictional jungle, but humans need not bow to our most base instincts. Humans may regulate our most base instincts.

That is why "The Fair Market" is better for the planet because it seeks to regulate our most base urges--greed being the most significant.

If we allow the might makes right folks to hold sway, the "few" will exploit resources not for the good of the planet but for their own profits; the "many" will suffer poor working conditions and a degraded environment. When we look to any unregulated spot on the planet, we see exactly what happens when corporations are unregulated: we see environmental degradation and near slave labor conditions, but we see great profits.

"The Fair Market" pays attention to the whole planet.

Regulations that prevent bullying of small businesses by large corporations also help to prevent environmental degradation.

The Libertarian Party, in its zeal to "leave you alone" also leaves alone predatory capitalists, the great flaw in the Libertarian philosophy.

Predatory capitalists must be regulated. It used to be, in the 19th century, that capitalism had not yet conquered the entire planet. But now it has. Predatory capitalism used to have other places to go, to expand into. But no longer. No longer can predatory capitalism "expand." It's filled all the available space. Therefore it is dangerous.

Predatory capitalism enriches the very few at the expense of the rest of us.

Predatory capitalism is supported by the Libertarians, so I reject their entire platform except for their 2A support.

The Green Party addresses predatory capitalism. I embrace their entire platform except for their stance on the 2A.

Life's a bear in a republic, the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried from time to time (Churchill).

CDFingers
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  #146  
Old 03-23-2013, 6:53 AM
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If anyone is interested, the Libertarian party is holding an event at the state capitol next month.

4/5/2013 10:30 am to 1:30 pm on the west side.
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  #147  
Old 03-23-2013, 7:37 AM
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So what is your overall point? That the Libertarians succumb to the pressure of individualism and free choice or jump on a ban-wagon of compromise and sheeperdom? That, my friend, we will never except. True freedom is true freedom, irregardless of personal, religious, political, or moral turpitude? You are calling the sheep call and asking those who are individualist and constitutionalist to succumb to your narcissistic/self righteous beliefs to gain/garner some good standing merely on your individual beliefs? LOL,LOL,LOL! Who made you god? Make your own choice and leave my choice up to me. Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!! We insist

I'm also tired of the whole abortion debate. What the anti-folk fail to realize is that men's rights have been trampled on as a result of Roe V. Wade. No one argues the right merits. If you're gonna poke your nose in someone else's affairs, while not even having a dog in the fight, at least fight for the right cause! Why should a man have to wait to find out if his kid will be killed or if he will be on the hook for payment as a ATM? That is the real fight! What about a mans reproductive rights? We keep hearing about gays/lesbians et al. But never a mans right to his own created seed! If you are gonna argue about "rights" and "responsibilities" that you have no bearing over or responsibilities thereof, at least fight for those whose choices are being trampled! Women get the right to decide on life or a paycheck while the man must sit back and "take it". If a woman has the right to decide to make you pay, men should have the right to compel them to have our babies they wish to dispose of. No other system of justice is more lopsided than that of a man/woman birth rights! They get to have it both ways. The law is inequitable at its foundation and I could argue our case all day in front of rational liberals or conservatives.

The flip side of that coin is the anti-tax folk who want lower taxes but piss/moan about illegals and babies that don't belong to them. Get real and get over yourself. Your moral stench is offensive and your "holier-than'thou" attitude reeks of narcissism and self-righteousness!! Even if you adopt poor babies and what not, who do you think you are? Worry about your own mess and stand up for the little guy if you must fight.
HEAR, HEAR!!!! Bravo! I'm glad to hear someone else state this fact.

At the risk of OT (which I typically try not to do), I've always felt the same way (I have been a victim of the circumstance, no details will be given)...

the fact that women have the choice to birth or abort and men do not is absurd. If a male impregnates a female in this country and looks forward to fatherhood - he gets kicked in the nuts and told to f-off if she wants to abort. Conversely, if he is not prepared to care for a child and she decides to give birth, he gets kicked in the nuts and told told to pay up. Un-phucking-believable!

And prior in the thread I was baffled that this went into abortion... but the topic of women's vs men's rights strikes a nerve with me.
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  #148  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:22 AM
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quote:

>[The free market] ignores real-world power relationships, and is arguably completely unattainable given human nature.

link:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/ite...blic-ownership

CDFingers
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  #149  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:31 AM
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Mince words if you like.

The political reality is simple. Bring your/the best "libertarian" candidate to the GOP. and we have a real chance to reclaim the WH and prevent more erosion of the 2A as well as all of the constitution.

Continue to run a 3rd party guy and socialism will prevail. Year in, year out. Just like our failing financial situation. It's just math.
Very unlikely the Republicans will ever run a libertarian.

Anyways, this is, I think, a good pretty summary of my libertarian position on gun control:

Quote:
Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.

-- L. Neil Smith http://www.lneilsmith.org/atlanta.html
Now try to imagine Mitt Romney or Ronald Reagan saying the above and you will begin to understand the divide between conservatives and libertarians.
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  #150  
Old 03-23-2013, 8:47 AM
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Very unlikely the Republicans will ever run a libertarian.

Anyways, this is, I think, a good pretty summary of my libertarian position on gun control:



Now try to imagine Mitt Romney or Ronald Reagan saying the above and you will begin to understand the divide between conservatives and libertarians.
And as much as I agree with the quote, it's just one of the many reasons you get 1% of the vote and remain politically ineffectual.
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Old 03-23-2013, 9:43 AM
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And as much as I agree with the quote, it's just one of the many reasons you get 1% of the vote and remain politically ineffectual.
If the Libertarian Party is so ineffectual why are the Republicans always whinging about the Libertarian vote costing a Republican an election? Methinks the man doth protest too much...

The alliance between libertarians and conservatives was always an uneasy one. The only thing that held it together during the Cold War was the threat of Communism and the Soviet Union. Once the Soviet Union was gone, libertarians and conservatives quickly diverged over social issues and the proper function of government in each individual's life. That divide is real and the Republicans offering progressive-lite dweebs like Romney or McCain as the lesser evil doesn't help. Most of the libertarians I know are willing to seek common ground with conservatives as soon as they prove they really means what they say about shrinking government and its influence in our collective lives.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:33 PM
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If the Libertarian Party is so ineffectual why are the Republicans always whinging about the Libertarian vote costing a Republican an election? Methinks the man doth protest too much...

The alliance between libertarians and conservatives was always an uneasy one. The only thing that held it together during the Cold War was the threat of Communism and the Soviet Union. Once the Soviet Union was gone, libertarians and conservatives quickly diverged over social issues and the proper function of government in each individual's life. That divide is real and the Republicans offering progressive-lite dweebs like Romney or McCain as the lesser evil doesn't help. Most of the libertarians I know are willing to seek common ground with conservatives as soon as they prove they really means what they say about shrinking government and its influence in our collective lives.
Because we were wrong. I admitted as much (at least for me) earlier in this thread. I truly believed there were enough libertarians to make a difference. If the 1% that voted as L in the last election is even in the ballpark, the L party means nothing. It's a waste of time.

That said, the L "message" is not a waste of time. In fact I agree with most of it. Always have.
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Old 03-23-2013, 4:57 PM
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I just don't believe in a completely unregulated free market.
Right, but at what point does regulating the free market make it no longer a free market?
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Old 03-23-2013, 5:59 PM
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scarville scarville is offline
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Because we were wrong. I admitted as much (at least for me) earlier in this thread. I truly believed there were enough libertarians to make a difference. If the 1% that voted as L in the last election is even in the ballpark, the L party means nothing. It's a waste of time.
I disagree but only the future will tell which of us -- if either -- is right. From the above I take you do not join in the bi-annual chanting of the "wasted vote" psalm.

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That said, the L "message" is not a waste of time. In fact I agree with most of it. Always have.
Fair enough.
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:17 PM
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I disagree but only the future will tell which of us -- if either -- is right. From the above I take you do not join in the bi-annual chanting of the "wasted vote" psalm.


Fair enough.
Agree.

Yes I was until I saw the numbers.

We seek the same/very similar results, but are approaching it from different perspectives.
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Old 03-23-2013, 6:59 PM
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the fact that women have the choice to birth or abort and men do not is absurd. If a male impregnates a female in this country and looks forward to fatherhood - he gets kicked in the nuts and told to f-off if she wants to abort. Conversely, if he is not prepared to care for a child and she decides to give birth, he gets kicked in the nuts and told told to pay up. Un-phucking-believable!
A sage battlefield advice seems appropriate here: when in doubt, pull out.
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Old 03-24-2013, 6:10 PM
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Right, but at what point does regulating the free market make it no longer a free market?
That's the balance we must strive to find, and it's always a changing target, especially as disruptive technologies emerge and new markets open.
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