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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:28 PM
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First, there is no "other" conservatives: libertarianism is not conservative according to strict definition of conservatism. Now, of course, as a rule, in English speaking countries conservatism conventionally means something else: it's a Burkean form of classical liberalism that has some reverence to traditional institutions.

However, this a false dilemma: first, as I've mentioned in previous comments, most effective libertarian efforts center around education and litigation. There is no abandon there.

As for electoral politics, there's no possibility of a republican presidential candidate carrying California: given a choice between communitarian big-government republicans like Romney (who created the policy on which Obama's "mandatory insurance" scheme is based on) and voting for Gary Johnson, in California -- which has no chance of carrying Romney anyway -- voting for Gary Johnson is the right decision as it sends a message.

Now there is one serious benefit to a republican president in office: they tend to appoint far more sane justices. Roberts Supreme Court, for example, has easily been the most libertarian Supreme Court in history (siding with ACLU in many free speech cases, giving us Lawrence vs. Texas, Heller, and McDonald). So in a genuine battleground state it might make sense to vote Republican.

Hopefully, however, this will not be an either or choice: there's a non-zero chance of Rand Paul getting a nomination. It will still be an up-hill fight, but the result will be an ideologically-libertarian Republican-party presidential nominee. That is change I can believe in :-)
Mince words if you like.

The political reality is simple. Bring your/the best "libertarian" candidate to the GOP. and we have a real chance to reclaim the WH and prevent more erosion of the 2A as well as all of the constitution.

Continue to run a 3rd party guy and socialism will prevail. Year in, year out. Just like our failing financial situation. It's just math.
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  #42  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:33 PM
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But there are far more Republicans making a negative impact.

OP, Libertarians are just people who believe in the personal liberties guaranteed in the Constitution.
Because there are far more of them.

Conservatives will vote for libertarians if they run in a party that can actually win an election. Think about that. Vote out the harmful republicans.
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  #43  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:37 PM
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Libertarians are an interesting bunch, but to their credit, I've NEVER met one that was ANTI-gun.
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  #44  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:41 PM
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I'll close tonight with this.

No 2A.... no other A's. At this time in history, we truly need to be one issue voters.

Why is CDF missing from this discussion?
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  #45  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:42 PM
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Sorry. Life long republican here since 3rd grade. I agree completely with most of what you wrote. Yet....

Libertarians in political terms have in fact thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
I see your point...

But the bath water is pretty damn fetid at this point.... and compromise has just bought us 16.7 trillion worth of it of it (not counting the unfunded liabilities)

I think the only play we have left is to take a principled stand.
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  #46  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:50 PM
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I see your point...

But the bath water is pretty damn fetid at this point.... and compromise has just bought us 16.7 trillion worth of it of it (not counting the unfunded liabilities)

I think the only play we have left is to take a principled stand.
Right. So save the friggin baby!

Don't compromise! Get a libertarian minded person elected! (Hint) run them as republicans! Instant 40% support!!!!!!!!!!
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  #47  
Old 03-12-2013, 9:50 PM
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The Green party also supports the 2nd amendment.
With lip service, similar to far left democrats.
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  #48  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:12 PM
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A Libertarian would never be a GOP candidate. There are too many socials issue differences for the GOP platform to approve. Either way, I'll vote for Gary Johnson (again) in 2016.
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  #49  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:14 PM
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A Libertarian would never be a GOP candidate. There are too many socials issue differences for the GOP platform to approve. Either way, I'll vote for Gary Johnson (again) in 2016.
Definition of insanity?
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:18 PM
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You know,
I purposely left RP out of the conversation because we have been there done that. Please let the old kook go in peace.
I won't even comment on how offensive that is to Libertarians.


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Rand is totally coherent. He is electable as an R IMO.
Agreed. But the Republican party needs to wake up and shift the way they do business. I would love it if Rand run as R in 2016. But if the RNC shows the same BS, don't be surprised if you get the same result.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:20 PM
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Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
I disagree. If we count all the people who are philosophical libertarians I think they would make a majority. It is the fear of becoming irrelevant in a two party system that keeps people from registering Libertarian. That and the facts that their primaries are not all that exciting and some of their candidates are just so dam intelligent they have trouble connecting well with other people.
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  #52  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:25 PM
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I won't even comment on how offensive that is to Libertarians.



Agreed. But the Republican party needs to wake up and shift the way they do business. I would love it if Rand run as R in 2016. But if the RNC shows the same BS, don't be surprised if you get the same result.
Agree 100%. Definition of insanity....

We need a United 2A candidate.
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  #53  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:28 PM
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I disagree. If we count all the people who are philosophical libertarians I think they would make a majority. It is the fear of becoming irrelevant in a two party system that keeps people from registering Libertarian. That and the facts that their primaries are not all that exciting and some of their candidates are just so dam intelligent they have trouble connecting well with other people.
Majority only of the 48% that didn't vote for o.

Again, it's math. We need to unite.
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  #54  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:40 PM
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Agree 100%. Definition of insanity....

We need a United 2A candidate.
I think you don't understand the Libertarian psyche. Most of us are highly educated, logical, and pragmatic. But we are also highly principled individuals. While most will accept a GOP candidate as a matter of pragmatism, stunts like RNC 2012 riles us like no other. When GOP sinks to the political muck of their opponents, why vote for the party that just told you to pound sand?

As an example, all of my friends and I were happy to vote the GOP ticket as a pragmatic choice. When we saw what happened at RNC, every man jack of us voted Bill Richardson. If Ron Paul lost the nomination (as he would have, I had no illusion Paul was to be nominated) fair and square, GOP would have had the Libertarians behind them. By playing dirty politics, GOP became the very thing Libertarians stand against.
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  #55  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:49 PM
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I think you don't understand the Libertarian psyche. Most of us are highly educated, logical, and pragmatic. But we are also highly principled individuals. While most will accept a GOP candidate as a matter of pragmatism, stunts like RNC 2012 riles us like no other. When GOP sinks to the political muck of their opponents, why vote for the party that just told you to pound sand?

As an example, all of my friends and I were happy to vote the GOP ticket as a pragmatic choice. When we saw what happened at RNC, every man jack of us voted Bill Richardson. If Ron Paul lost the nomination (as he would have, I had no illusion Paul was to be nominated) fair and square, GOP would have had the Libertarians behind them. By playing dirty politics, GOP became the very thing Libertarians stand against.
You are preaching to the choir in my case. But I also recognize that we can't all fall on a grenade and save us.

Politics sucks but its not going away.

So, if Rand and those like him are elected and elevated we have a chance to keep 2A in tact. Nothing else matters IMO.

What's the best way to do that? Splinter or unite?
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  #56  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
You are preaching to the choir in my case. But I also recognize that we can't all fall on a grenade and save us.

Politics sucks but its not going away.

So, if Rand and those like him are elected and elevated we have a chance to keep 2A in tact. Nothing else matters IMO.

What's the best way to do that? Splinter or unite?
Frankly, this debate is kind of pointless, and has been gone over many many many times in the past.

Libertarians want Republicans to support a Libertarian candidate, but they won't because the Republican party is, at it's core, an authoritarian party, they want to tell people what to do, when to do it and who they can do it with, and a lot of that comes from being joined at the hip with the Religious Right. But the end result is that since a Libertarian candidate will not support many of the core Republican ideas they will not get a real seat at the table or even a fair hearing(see what happened to Paul in the 2012 convention).

Republicans want Libertarians to hold their nose and vote Republican because we agree with a few points of the Republican platform(and not nearly as many as people think), and want us to ignore that the vast majority of said platform is absolutely repugnant to us. In a lot of cases, particularly in states where a few votes matters we do hold our nose and vote Republican when they are the lesser of two evils(and that is not always the case, and make no mistake we do view them as an evil), but in states like California we generally see no reason to since the election here was a forgone conclusion. The only argument in a state like California to vote for the lesser evil is as a symbolic show of support, but since we generally don't support the Republican platform most of us see no reason to show symbolic support for things we do not in fact support, so all the "we must be united even when it won't matter" lines tend to fall on deaf ears.

Honestly, I don't see Libertarians ever rejoining the flock of the GOP as it stands now, and without major structural changes the GOP will not become Libertarian enough to entice very many Libertarians back.

It really comes down to a fundamental difference in how we view the world compared to Republicans/Democrats.

A mainline Republican sees something he doesn't like, he asks "is there a good reason should I allow this to happen"

A Libertarian sees something he doesn't like, he asks "is there a good reason I should not allow this to happen"

It seems subtle written down, but it really represents a 180 degree shift in world view.
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  #57  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:47 PM
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All this talk about the whole RNC fiasco reminds me.... I need to update my voter registration...

I have zero intention of being counted among the loyal rank and file.

I held my nose and registered in 2008 and 2012 so I could try to help reform the Republicans, get Paul into the debates, try to get him a speaking role at the convention etc.

It would take one helluva candidate in the primaries to get me to register R again.

Generic Assclown A is not going to get me into the voting booth for the Red team.
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Old 03-13-2013, 2:41 AM
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voted libertarian this past election but now feel I just gave vote to the gun grabbers by taking away a republican vote. I'm pretty sure they didnt even get 5% of the total votes. I truly wish I could see a 3rd party candidate get elected in my life time.
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Old 03-13-2013, 3:01 AM
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Originally Posted by penguin0123 View Post
Libertarians are true liberals. In the 19th century, libertarians called themselves liberals until the early 20th century when the communists hijacked the term.

Here is a chart that may help:

I disagree with this old graphic.

To a large extent 'Liberal' now means Socialists, not personal freedom.

And to a large extent 'Conservative' now means religious extremists not economic freedom.

Romney didn't lose because of his Economic Freedom policies. He lost because too many religious extremists spouted off about their religious and moral issues and their need to impose their beliefs on others.

Obama didn't win because of this personal freedom policies. He won due to his Socialist Distribute the Wealth policies.
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Old 03-13-2013, 7:13 AM
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I disagree with this old graphic.

To a large extent 'Liberal' now means Socialists, not personal freedom.

And to a large extent 'Conservative' now means religious extremists not economic freedom.

Romney didn't lose because of his Economic Freedom policies. He lost because too many religious extremists spouted off about their religious and moral issues and their need to impose their beliefs on others.

Obama didn't win because of this personal freedom policies. He won due to his Socialist Distribute the Wealth policies.
This. That graphic is way too simple... unless someone here really thinks that "Left Liberal" aligns well with "Personal Freedom"
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Old 03-13-2013, 7:29 AM
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What I'm curious about is if the Libertarian party believes in having the 2A enforced upon the states through incorporation of the 14thA? I've heard many who believe the states could outright ban arms because they believe in the Slaughterhouse interpretation of the P or I clause.
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Old 03-13-2013, 7:41 AM
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Majority only of the 48% that didn't vote for o.

Again, it's math. We need to unite.
I agree.

L that votes R (most of the time). It would seem like we have a better chance of turing the GOP L than winning as L's on their own.

I also think that if the GOP goes L on some major issues, they could clean up.

I still refuse to believe that most Americans support euro style big activist government liberalism.

We have the stupid party and the evil party. Going L would leave the GOP a little smarter, and democrats... in the same postion, espcially without a 'celebrity' president to run.
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Old 03-13-2013, 7:54 AM
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I agree.

L that votes R (most of the time). It would seem like we have a better chance of turing the GOP L than winning as L's on their own.
But, the only way to make the GOP change is to make them realize, by not voting for them, that some of their positions are not tenable for Libertarians.

If Libertarians continue to vote GOP because they are the lesser of 2 evils, the GOP has no reason to change.

The GOP believes in fiscal liberty, but they don't believe in personal Liberty anymore than the Dems do. Nanny state vs. Theocracy is a lose-lose in my book.
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Old 03-13-2013, 7:58 AM
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But, the only way to make the GOP change is to make them realize, by not voting for them, that some of their positions are not tenable for Libertarians.

If Libertarians continue to vote GOP because they are the lesser of 2 evils, the GOP has no reason to change.

The GOP believes in fiscal liberty, but they don't believe in personal Liberty anymore than the Dems do. Nanny state vs. Theocracy is a lose-lose in my book.
Yeah, after wrote that I realized how nieve it sounded....

My fear is, by the time 'our' collective sides get their **** togther, it will be to late.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:28 AM
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Really?

Property rights: Not so much
They get around the 2A by supporting it, then taking away your gun along with the REST of your property?
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:29 AM
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But, the only way to make the GOP change is to make them realize, by not voting for them, that some of their positions are not tenable for Libertarians.

If Libertarians continue to vote GOP because they are the lesser of 2 evils, the GOP has no reason to change.

The GOP believes in fiscal liberty, but they don't believe in personal Liberty anymore than the Dems do. Nanny state vs. Theocracy is a lose-lose in my book.
You won't change any of the politicians, thus my strategy is to keep them as evenly divided as possible. That way they argue against each other and we're left relatively alone. The trouble happens once you give either party too much advantage.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:41 AM
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I consider myself sort of libertarian but not part of the Libertarian Party as they are too cozy with the GOP. A bad government cannot be fixed by using government to fix itself. I guess I am more anarchy-capitalist than libertarian as I want total liberty not regulated liberty dished out by the same government that I reject.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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My biggest fear is that we lose one of the Heller 5, so I will do nothing that would help a Dem get elected. My firm belief is once we lose the 2A then whatever liberties we have left are soon to follow.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:06 AM
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I consider myself sort of libertarian but not part of the Libertarian Party as they are too cozy with the GOP. A bad government cannot be fixed by using government to fix itself. I guess I am more anarchy-capitalist than libertarian as I want total liberty not regulated liberty dished out by the same government that I reject.
thats true libertarian. Anarchy should not be connected to liberty as you would not have any
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:24 AM
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voted libertarian this past election but now feel I just gave vote to the gun grabbers by taking away a republican vote. I'm pretty sure they didnt even get 5% of the total votes. I truly wish I could see a 3rd party candidate get elected in my life time.
Richardson got 1% of popular vote. But remember the difference between Obama and Romney is 1% in popular vote. Also, a vote for your principles is NEVER a vote wasted. Especially in this state where the conclusion is foregone anyway. L+R=win would never happen unless there is a fundamental shift in GOP. I won't hold 2012 against GOP as I understand it is politics afterall. But if they pull the same crap in 2016, it would be like asking people to lay down in a trough of pig s__t just to smell one rose.

And those who say 3rd party will never get enough momentum to affect the outcome need only to look at UKIP and the recent Eastleigh by-election. UK is also dominated by Labour vs. Conservative. But since both party sold out to the Eurocrats and are socialistic in philosophy, UKIP is the only sensible choice left. And in the recent election, they got 28% of the vote. More than enough to threaten Cameron's coalition. UKIP's fight against the EU is philosophically much like our fight for 2A.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:44 AM
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After this past election, I switched party registration to Libertarian from Republican. Im disgusted with them and their failures, and also their reluctance to get with the times on social issues. If a lot more people registered and voting democrat and republican looked at their stances on issues vs their party as a whole, a lot more would be Libertarian.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:54 AM
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if your registered political "alliance" was determined by a survey instead of a box you check, the landscape would be much different.

or CA could be like some other states and not require you to register for a certain party in order to vote in their primaries
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:31 PM
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CEDaytonaRydr CEDaytonaRydr is offline
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Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post
I've been reading the LP's website and I agree with just about everything they say. And after reading comments in this thread, I agree even more.

I am officially calling myself a Libertarian today.
Welcome to the Revolution!!!

We pick up a few more members every day. We are the third largest, and fastest growing politicial party in the U.S. Some of our new members are frustrated Democrats, while others are fed-up Republicans. Either way, we're glad to have you with us.

The best thing you can do, at this point, is spread the word. "Like" the Libertarian party on Facebook (if you're on Facebook) and comment on some of their graphics (there are some good ones). Also, check on Meetup.com for Libertarian meetups in your area. In So Cal, there is a South Bay Libertarian group, a Libertarian cigar club, and a Libertarian Shooting club. It's nice to get together with like-minded individuals.
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Old 03-13-2013, 3:49 PM
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I was confused about what to consider myself a few years ago. Preserving the Constitution as it was written has always been my base and I heard a speech by some guy named Ron Paul that was "Libertarian" and was like WOW someone speaking common sense. Looked into Libertarian and was glad to put a name to my philosophy of freedom.
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Old 03-13-2013, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ElDub1950 View Post
I disagree with this old graphic.

To a large extent 'Liberal' now means Socialists, not personal freedom.
And to a large extent 'Conservative' now means religious extremists not economic freedom.
Romney didn't lose because of his Economic Freedom policies. He lost because too many religious extremists spouted off about their religious and moral issues and their need to impose their beliefs on others.

Obama didn't win because of this personal freedom policies. He won due to his Socialist Distribute the Wealth policies.
What gave you your first clue? It's only been that way for over a century.

Religious extremists are a very small percentage of conservatives, but every time one of the jerk wads sticks his foot in his mouth the socialist MSM makes sure everyone in the world hears about it a dozen times!

There are more small L libertarians in the republican party than there are religious extremists. The R's need to realize they need us and give the libertarian branch of the tree more respect. If they do not the whole country will soon resemble CA.
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Old 03-13-2013, 4:26 PM
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What I'm curious about is if the Libertarian party believes in having the 2A enforced upon the states through incorporation of the 14thA? I've heard many who believe the states could outright ban arms because they believe in the Slaughterhouse interpretation of the P or I clause.

You have not heard any libertarians say that. If someone self identifying as a libertarian tells you that, he is either lying or confused about being a libertarian. It is now fashionable, especially in Hollywood, to call yourself a libertarian even when you have no clue what it means.
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Old 03-13-2013, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
I agree.

L that votes R (most of the time). It would seem like we have a better chance of turing the GOP L than winning as L's on their own.

I also think that if the GOP goes L on some major issues, they could clean up.

I still refuse to believe that most Americans support euro style big activist government liberalism.

We have the stupid party and the evil party. Going L would leave the GOP a little smarter, and democrats... in the same postion, espcially without a 'celebrity' president to run.
^^^^^
THIS!
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Old 03-13-2013, 4:38 PM
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Yeah, after wrote that I realized how nieve it sounded....

My fear is, by the time 'our' collective sides get their **** togther, it will be to late.
This is all academic anyway; it's already too late. No way are we going to pull out of our economic death spiral.
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Old 03-13-2013, 5:13 PM
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I am registered Libertarian, for a few reasons. I go along with the "leave me be" stance for the most part. in many ways, yeah, I am quite liberal in my views. sadly, "liberal" has quite some negative connotations to it. but in some cases I am conservative as well. of course, conservatives are not the most popular regarding social issues. I fully support 2A, along with the rest of the Constitution.

for a number of years I was actually registered socialist. not that I agreed with any of it. but I was sick and tired of all the BS of the two major parties, and didnt want to be associated with either one. then I learned about the Libertarian party, and it sure seemed to fit with me. I can still not be a part of the two majors, vote as I want, and help send a message. I think the more people who vote outside of the two majors, the more it helps reinforce that we dont like to be lumped to one side or the other.
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Old 03-13-2013, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post
But I am a single issue voter: I vote based upon the 2A.
Okay look, If you want to have and keep your guns, DON'T VOTE DEM. Period.

Libertarians belive in shinking the goverment to just its bare bones, just enough to be able to make this country function. Ron Paul was a libertarian. He was running as a Rep. but he was way to far to the right to be a Republican. Santorum was a Republican, Romney was more of an Independent than anything else. I did not really want him to be Pres. but voted for him because he was less evil than the current dope, BO.

Libertarians want to stay the hell out of the lives of the citizens. They want everyone to have equal rights whether you are the President, the speaker of the house, the mail man or the guy that begs for money outside of the gas station bathroom. Most Libertarians will vote for the GOP in the general election unless one of their one has made it that far. If a Libertarian made it to the general election and a Repubican did not, Repubicans will go with the Libertarian. Niether will ever go to the left because the don't want dopes like BO in office calling the shots a nd F'ing up the country like BO or Clinton did. Also Libertarians and Republicans all thrive to be like RR. Never give in to waht a Dem wants no matter what, there is always a catch. That has been prooven time after time thru out the last 300 years.
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