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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:27 AM
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Default Libertarian Party - 2A Views?

I've never been into politics as much as I have been since I joined this site last year. I've never even been to a public protest until I attended the 2A state capitol rally earlier this year (which was very awesome, btw). And I didn't know the differences between the "left" and "right" until I joined this site.

Needless to say, I am ignorant on most things political but I am extremely staunch on my support of our Constitution and our Bill of rights.

I just recently looked into the Libertarian Party and it looks like I might really fit with their views (for the most part, anyhow). But I am a single issue voter: I vote based upon the 2A.

I see that the Libertarian Party supports the 2A, based on info on their site. Can anyone provide specifics to me? Do they support the true intention of "shall not be infringed" as opposed to Democrats lying and stating they support the 2A?
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:39 AM
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Libertarian is not a glamorous political party, and as such most of the people who identify themselves libertarian are, in fact, exactly what they say they are. If you read that libertarians are in support of the 2A, you can expect they are in support of the actual meaning, not just supporting hunter's rights to anything up to muzzle loaders

there are a lot more people that identify libertarian than mainstream politics would admit, but those who arent really into politics would never find out. Good on you to actually get involved, easy way to separate yourself from the 99% of zombie voters out there

edit: libertarian is basically the "leave me alone" party, they would prefer to defend themselves from tyranny rather than rely on others so yes, actually pro-2A

Last edited by Hoooper; 03-12-2013 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:43 AM
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Libertarians aren't just better than Democrats, they're far better than the Republicans, too.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:46 AM
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The Green party also supports the 2nd amendment.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:47 AM
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The Green party also supports the 2nd amendment.
Really?

Property rights: Not so much
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post

I see that the Libertarian Party supports the 2A, based on info on their site. Can anyone provide specifics to me? Do they support the true intention of "shall not be infringed" as opposed to Democrats lying and stating they support the 2A?

Yes.

As in "shall not be infringed" not like the liberal bed-wetting Republicans responsible for signing the federal 1986 machine gun ban, federal 1989 sport utility import ban, 2004 California 50 BMG ban, etc.

The test is simple.

"Does an action violate the zero aggression principle?"

where the ZAP dictates no human initiate violence against another. Governments are collections of people and not exempt.

Owning objects doesn't violate the ZAP.

When you become wealthy like Bill Gates you're welcome to buy yourself an aircraft carrier in the same manner wealthy merchants in the Founding Fathers' times owned ships with canon (letters of marquee and reprisal wouldn't have meant much if that wasn't the case).

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 03-12-2013 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
Libertarians aren't just better than Democrats, they're far better than the Republicans, too.
Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:59 AM
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Libertarians kind of have little sub-categories, but in general they support the entire Constitution, and in a literal form. It means exactly what it says it does. No interpretation, no nothing.

Of course they abandoned other Conservatives. They overstep their bounds just as much... just on different issues. Libertarians might identify with Conservative more than Liberals, but they are not the same thing.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:02 PM
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Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are Constitutional conservatives/Libertarians. Staunch 2A defenders. You don't get better 2A defenders than this party.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
They don't abandon all other conservatives,

but other conservatives are very VERY threatened by princepled individuals who truly beleive in freedom, free markets, and minimizing government... people who won't compromise with the government telling them what they can have in their gunsafe, what people can put in their own boddies, or what activities they can do in the bedroom.

for the reccord I'm an Anarcho Capitalist, which falls under the broader catagory of Libertarian.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
We "abandon" conservatives because we are not conservatives(at least as that term is defined now), or republicans, or democrats. Libertarians believe in the constitution, including the bill of rights, in it's entirety. Unlike the other 3 groups I mentioned we do not pick and choose what portions of it we want to pay attention to.

Conservatives love to put up "moral" laws, no prostitution, no drugs of any kind, only specified kinds of relationships between consenting adults are allowed, things like that. Libertarians believe that the Constitution, because it is written as limits on government power, does not grant the Government the power to enforce morality, so as much as we may personally disagree with any of those behaviors, if contesting adults participating in those activities doesn't hurt us we won't try and pass laws against them.

Republicans and Democrats both like to expand the power of government, in the case of Democrats it is by limiting the 2nd amendment, and doing everything they can to get people to rely on the government for everything. In the case of Republicans it is by limiting the 2nd amendment and by removing protections from being searched and watched by law enforcement. Libertarians oppose all of those measures.

I have said it several times during the election, Libertarians are not disaffected Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives Neo-Cons or anything else, we are our own thing.

As to the specific question of the 2nd amendment, we are for going back and repealing everything back to the 1934 National Firearms Act.

EDIT:I should clarify that repealing everything back to the 1934 NFA also includes the NFA itself.

A good amusing primer on Libertarian views would be to watch Penn and Tellers Bull****, they cover many of the issues and generally come from a Libertarian viewpoint, plus lots of boobs.

If it was not obvious by now many of us are also quite verbose
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:20 PM
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Check it out for yourself...
http://www.lp.org/platform
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
We "abandon" conservatives because we are not conservatives(at least as that term is defined now), or republicans, or democrats. Libertarians believe in the constitution, including the bill of rights, in it's entirety. Unlike the other 3 groups I mentioned we do not pick and choose what portions of it we want to pay attention to.

Conservatives love to put up "moral" laws, no prostitution, no drugs of any kind, only specified kinds of relationships between consenting adults are allowed, things like that. Libertarians believe that the Constitution, because it is written as limits on government power, does not grant the Government the power to enforce morality, so as much as we may personally disagree with any of those behaviors, if they don't hurt us we won't try and pass laws against them.

Republicans and Democrats both like to expand the power of government, in the case of Democrats it is by limiting the 2nd amendment, and doing everything they can to get people to rely on the government for everything. In the case of Republicans it is by limiting the 2nd amendment and by removing protections from being searched and watched by law enforcement. Libertarians oppose all of those measures.

I have said it several times during the election, Libertarians are not disaffected Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives Neo-Cons or anything else, we are our own thing.

As to the specific question of the 2nd amendment, we are for going back and repealing everything back to the 1934 National Firearms Act.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:22 PM
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The libertarian view on second amendment is simple: guns are things, you have a right to posses things, unless your possession of them directly harms others. You have no right to use things for force or fraud. That means you have the right to keep and bear most common firearms.

This is a different approach from the most common ones oriented around the need to have firearms as a check against tyranny, need to use firearms for self-defense/hunting/sport, and the argument that an armed society means less crime. All of these are probably true, but the core libertarian argument revolves around individual rights: the burden is the government to show how possession of specific firearms infringes on (negative) rights of other of individuals (note: rights of individuals not "public health" or "greater good of society") before this specific firearm (or any other specific object, but nothing more!) can be regulated.

As for Libertarian Party, fringe political parties are an interesting way to make a point (I voted for Gary Johnson in the last election to do just that), but libertarian organizations go far beyond the libertarian party: the Cato Institute, for example, played a pivotal role in Heller. Gunfight (written by a non-libertarian, but sympathetic to some of their causes) also talked about how the original idea for the lawsuit began with the libertarian Institute for Justice (which mostly focused on more conventional property rights litigation).

There's also more to libertarianism than "hard" libertarianism (e.g., absolute opposition to any social safety net, even minimal taxation or environmental protection), but that's beyond the scope of this discussion: it's fine to disagree about whether or not carbon tax/carbon credits would be justified to defend against global warming, or if a flat tax is justified, but if you don't support an individual right to keep and bear arms (or "things", really) limited only in the most narrow and extreme cases, you aren't a libertarian (of any stripe) by definition.

( Full disclosure: I consider myself a "left-libertarian" or a classical liberal -- see http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/ and http://www.popehat.com/2012/12/28/wh...water-is-fine/ if you're further interested in that sub-current of libertarianism )
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:31 PM
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No one will be more 2A supportive than the libertarians.

When the Republican conservatives do enough toward liberty that the libertarians hold their nose and vote for them the republicans win, when they parade their moral enforcing crazy streak the libertarians stay home and they lose. Romney lost the election at the convention when his henchmen were disrespectful and underhanded with Dr Ron Paul. This pissed off a bunch of really involved people and the Libertarians either stayed home or voted for Gary Johnson this election.... It you add either the Gary Johnson vote totals or the Ron Paul primary voters totals to Romney's totals in the swing states he would have won and would now be president.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:38 PM
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The LP is a staunch defender of 2A.
While some say they have 2wings that differ slightly (one more conservative & the other more liberal) across they board they are true defenders of the constitution.
I feel we need more 3 party voters to keep the 2 major parties in check. They give the people more options to vote when they feel that the major parties aren't representing them & in turn make the major parties work harder to keep their votes.
The trick is still balance though.
The Libertarian party is growing & they absorb more of the republican vote than they do the dem vote, the green party is the opposite. So it would be better to see their voter bases both grow together.
IMHO
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:43 PM
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Libertarians are true liberals. In the 19th century, libertarians called themselves liberals until the early 20th century when the communists hijacked the term.

Here is a chart that may help:

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Old 03-12-2013, 12:43 PM
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Libertarians aren't just better than Democrats, they're far better than the Republicans, too.
As if that's any great feat!
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
We "abandon" conservatives because we are not conservatives(at least as that term is defined now), or republicans, or democrats. Libertarians believe in the constitution, including the bill of rights, in it's entirety. Unlike the other 3 groups I mentioned we do not pick and choose what portions of it we want to pay attention to.

Conservatives love to put up "moral" laws, no prostitution, no drugs of any kind, only specified kinds of relationships between consenting adults are allowed, things like that. Libertarians believe that the Constitution, because it is written as limits on government power, does not grant the Government the power to enforce morality, so as much as we may personally disagree with any of those behaviors, if contesting adults participating in those activities doesn't hurt us we won't try and pass laws against them.

Republicans and Democrats both like to expand the power of government, in the case of Democrats it is by limiting the 2nd amendment, and doing everything they can to get people to rely on the government for everything. In the case of Republicans it is by limiting the 2nd amendment and by removing protections from being searched and watched by law enforcement. Libertarians oppose all of those measures.

I have said it several times during the election, Libertarians are not disaffected Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives Neo-Cons or anything else, we are our own thing.

As to the specific question of the 2nd amendment, we are for going back and repealing everything back to the 1934 National Firearms Act.

EDIT:I should clarify that repealing everything back to the 1934 NFA also includes the NFA itself.

A good amusing primer on Libertarian views would be to watch Penn and Tellers Bull****, they cover many of the issues and generally come from a Libertarian viewpoint, plus lots of boobs.

If it was not obvious by now many of us are also quite verbose
We've hashed this out for years.

o got re-elected when any chimp should have beat him. You can blah blah all you like. The supporters of 2A where splintered.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:45 PM
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There's Libertarians (capital L), who are involved with a political party, and are subject to all the corruption that comes with politics. Not as bad as Dems and Reps, but it's still politics as usual.

Then there's libertarians (lowercase L), which is more of a philosophy, based on the Non-Aggression Principle. In a nutshell it's, do as you please, as long as it harms no one else. Want guns? Fine. Want hookers and drugs? Fine. Just don't bother me. libertarians typically have a wide range of political views. Some support abortion, some don't. Some support gay marriage, some don't. The main thing is, a libertarian won't try to use government to impose their opinion on everyone else. Your opinion remains your opinion.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:52 PM
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Old 03-12-2013, 1:15 PM
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I am right there with you OP. I just recently learned that libertarian views pretty much match mine. I am pro 2A, but also pro choice. I would prefer abortion to not be needed or to only consist of the morning after pill, but there are some valid reasons to have an abortion as much as I hate to see the beginning of a life ended. I am against drugs, but the government doesn't seem to be making a big impact on stopping them.

Libertarians seem to think a bit more logically instead of emotionally. I am agnostic/atheist so I don't like all of the views of the religious conservatives. My family is Christian/Mormon and I like the values of those religions much more than some of the eastern religions. I have morals, but I don't believe in being told how to live my life by government or religion.

It is too bad that our voting doesn't accurately represent all of the voters and that the republicans and democrats seem to get the power.
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Old 03-12-2013, 1:41 PM
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I've been reading the LP's website and I agree with just about everything they say. And after reading comments in this thread, I agree even more.

I am officially calling myself a Libertarian today.
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:16 PM
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To those who discovered they've got libertarian leanings, welcome to the club! I'd highly suggest following Rand Paul (he's a "RINO", but a libertarian one!) and also the Reason Magazine, Cato Institute, and few others:

http://reason.com/
http://www.cato.org/
http://www.ij.org/
(currently down but also great) http://www.independent.org/

LP is great -- particularly with Gary Johnson's candidacy and in terms of getting the message -- but there's far more to libertarianism than electrocal politics. While elected libertarians like Rand Paul and Justin Amash do have a lot of momentum and we should definitely capitalize on it, there's even more that can be done by non-electoral means: litigation against some of the more extreme abuses (see, for example, the work IJ has done), education to build the next generation of libertarians, and more.

It's also important to understand that you don't have to agree on every core prescriptive policy ("plank") that individual libertarian groups adopt, the overall principle that liberty (whether personal or economic) is good and coercion (whether for "public good" or for "morality") is evil is what matters.
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
But there are far more Republicans making a negative impact.

OP, Libertarians are just people who believe in the personal liberties guaranteed in the Constitution.
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:32 PM
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I was a registered Replublican for many years, until recently. I switched to the Libertarian party a few months ago.
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:41 PM
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Registered libertarian for many many years now.

Only thing that sucks is primaries.

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Old 03-12-2013, 2:44 PM
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Libertarians are quite supportive of 2A from what I've read and heard. But when they abandon all other conservatives they hurt us. There are not enough of them to make a positive difference on their own.
First, there is no "other" conservatives: libertarianism is not conservative according to strict definition of conservatism. Now, of course, as a rule, in English speaking countries conservatism conventionally means something else: it's a Burkean form of classical liberalism that has some reverence to traditional institutions.

However, this a false dilemma: first, as I've mentioned in previous comments, most effective libertarian efforts center around education and litigation. There is no abandon there.

As for electoral politics, there's no possibility of a republican presidential candidate carrying California: given a choice between communitarian big-government republicans like Romney (who created the policy on which Obama's "mandatory insurance" scheme is based on) and voting for Gary Johnson, in California -- which has no chance of carrying Romney anyway -- voting for Gary Johnson is the right decision as it sends a message.

Now there is one serious benefit to a republican president in office: they tend to appoint far more sane justices. Roberts Supreme Court, for example, has easily been the most libertarian Supreme Court in history (siding with ACLU in many free speech cases, giving us Lawrence vs. Texas, Heller, and McDonald). So in a genuine battleground state it might make sense to vote Republican.

Hopefully, however, this will not be an either or choice: there's a non-zero chance of Rand Paul getting a nomination. It will still be an up-hill fight, but the result will be an ideologically-libertarian Republican-party presidential nominee. That is change I can believe in :-)
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post
I just recently looked into the Libertarian Party and it looks like I might really fit with their views (for the most part, anyhow). But I am a single issue voter: I vote based upon the 2A.
If you really want to vote for someone that matches your own views, just write your own name in. In most elections, you're just as likely to win as the Libertarian candidate .
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Old 03-12-2013, 2:55 PM
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Welcome to the club OP! Here's a visual.



I also recommend reading Ron Paul's book Liberty Defined.
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Old 03-12-2013, 5:18 PM
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Ron Paul and most of his supporters are libertarian

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Old 03-12-2013, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by glocksmith View Post
Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are Constitutional conservatives/Libertarians. Staunch 2A defenders. You don't get better 2A defenders than this party.
Not really....

Ted Cruz is a big social issues guy. He would love for government to control marriage. He also is assumed to be a big war hawk from his criticisms of Hagel .

For Paul, he is not as much of a libertarian as he dad. As someone else stated, pretty much a RINO libertarian or a conservative with less focus on social issues. He still supports Gitmo and endorsed Romney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post
I've been reading the LP's website and I agree with just about everything they say. And after reading comments in this thread, I agree even more.

I am officially calling myself a Libertarian today.
Congrats. There is so much material for you to learn. I suggest you youtube clips from different libertarian sources whether it is Milton Friedman, Peter Molyneux, Adam Kokesh, etc. Also, a great place to read libertarian sources and news besides the other links provided in other parts of this thread:

www.reddit.com/r/libertarian
www.reddit.com/r/libertarianbestof <<< Read through these. Some of these responses are some of the best writings and explanations of libertarian concepts that I have seen.

Other than that, lots of FB pages and great sources all over the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilro View Post
There's Libertarians (capital L), who are involved with a political party, and are subject to all the corruption that comes with politics. Not as bad as Dems and Reps, but it's still politics as usual.

Then there's libertarians (lowercase L), which is more of a philosophy, based on the Non-Aggression Principle. In a nutshell it's, do as you please, as long as it harms no one else. Want guns? Fine. Want hookers and drugs? Fine. Just don't bother me. libertarians typically have a wide range of political views. Some support abortion, some don't. Some support gay marriage, some don't. The main thing is, a libertarian won't try to use government to impose their opinion on everyone else. Your opinion remains your opinion.
I always thought big L libertarians were on the Ayn Rand side and small-L were the party types. At least that was what Milton Friedman classified himself as.
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Old 03-12-2013, 6:08 PM
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While in College I had a liberal friend tell me "Libertarians are Republicans who like Pot and Porn.

BTW: I am a Libertarian, so not an insult.
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Old 03-12-2013, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vonderplatz View Post
While in College I had a liberal friend tell me "Libertarians are Republicans who like Pot and Porn.

BTW: I am a Libertarian, so not an insult.
It's not that way at all. I think you know that, but lets not give out bad info.
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Old 03-12-2013, 6:59 PM
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I have been "Libertarian" since high school but joined the party in 2003
Back in 1996 a friend/coworker showed me a test to determine where you fall with in the party. Flash forward nearly 20 years later a few people on this site posted a couple of tests similar to the first on I took. the results are funny.


This was the first test with limited amswers


This was the second one with a larger group of questions



I am a proud Libertarian.
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Old 03-12-2013, 7:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vonderplatz View Post
While in College I had a liberal friend tell me "Libertarians are Republicans who like Pot and Porn.

BTW: I am a Libertarian, so not an insult.
And the liberals are like communists who like to... oh wait, they're just communists.
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Old 03-12-2013, 7:11 PM
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Libertarian - when people are left alone and do what is in their own best interests (without harming someone else), everyone prospers. I believe it!
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Old 03-12-2013, 7:20 PM
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Here in Southern Cal the Orange County Register, a daily metropolitan paper, considerers themselves a libertarian voice. Orange County has considered itself a conservative county for some time. But when I make my run in the morning I see a lot more LA Times rags in the driveways.
(As an aside, the Times have radically shrunk their coverage on everything since their bankruptcy while the Register exponentially expanded theirs).
This week the Register published several anti-gun articles from the NY Times and their new owner is from Massachusetts. Hopefully, this info doesn’t change anything.
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Old 03-12-2013, 7:43 PM
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Switched my registration two years ago from Repub to Libertarian and never looked back. Gary Johnson is a good man, too bad he will never get elected, but I was so sick of the republicans telling me what to do and think I couldn't stand it anymore. Much better now.
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Old 03-12-2013, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
They don't abandon all other conservatives,

but other conservatives are very VERY threatened by princepled individuals who truly beleive in freedom, free markets, and minimizing government... people who won't compromise with the government telling them what they can have in their gunsafe, what people can put in their own boddies, or what activities they can do in the bedroom.

for the reccord I'm an Anarcho Capitalist, which falls under the broader catagory of Libertarian.
Sorry. Life long republican here since 3rd grade. I agree completely with most of what you wrote. Yet....

Libertarians in political terms have in fact thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
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