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  #1  
Old 03-10-2013, 11:46 AM
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Default Any suggestions...

A little background...

I'm a half century in age now, still have good eyesight (I only use reading glasses), I've been away from competitive shooting for approx. 18 years and used to be a much better shot. I went to my first GSSF indoor match last week did OK, but there's much room for improvement!

For the last week, been doing dry fire practice with an empty shell sitting on top of front sight to see if I am dipping gun in anticipation of recoil, trying to retrain my brain to use both eyes (was taught 30 yrs ago to close one), and I also have worked on firming up my grip in dry fire drills.

I went out and did some live fire practice yesterday and I am still shooting a bit low and I know it isnt the gun, as a very good shooter at last weeks match nailed the bull using my G17. My grouping has tightened up though in just one week of dry fire practice.

Here is my last target from yesterday, with approx. 45 rds through it @ 5 yards. (had 50 in mags but it was some older free 9mm 115 gr fmj that I was given and had approx. 5-7 misfires!)

Any thoughts or suggestions??? Am I expecting the world in just a week, or?
2013-03-10 10.51.39.jpg
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:11 PM
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I think you are still flinching, and at 5yds I think that is probably the only thing that it can be and maybe trigger control. You can test this by using some dummy rounds.

Take three magazines and between them load 10-15 dummy rounds and 15-20 live rounds and load the mags randomly (example: 1 live, 2 dummy, 2 live, 1 dummy etc). Mix the magazines in a bag/pocket so you don't have a clue what you are getting and proceed to slow fire. If you see a flinch then, there is your problem.

I've seen all kinds of posts and talked to different instructors on how to get rid of a flinch. Bottom line, your body will have a harder time getting rid of it if you can't see it happen. So being able to see your sights and the sight picture as the gun fires is the shortest way to getting rid of the flinch. I think fixing a flinch without seeing it is pretty hard, its like trying to thread a needle with your eyes closed. You need that visual feedback to close the control loop.
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:37 PM
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I would have to agree, but the dry fire drill with an empty shell case on front sight should help that too! Right?

I will try what you suggest next time out with live fire!

Am I expecting too much after only a week of concentrating on this?
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Old 03-10-2013, 1:23 PM
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I don't think putting the shell casing on top could hurt. I'm trying a modified version of that drill to work on my trigger pull inspired by a dry fire technique I learned in Frank Proctor's class. Its the one where you keep your Glock slightly out of battery with a zip tie. I think the following is the video for that technique.




I combined that with putting a shell casing on top and work on successive trigger pulls while keeping the shell casing balanced. I just started so I can't comment on if it helps or not but if the original shell casing drill works so should this one.

-edit-
You know what, now that I think about it I am going to nix the shell casing thing. I think that might not be a good drill in the first place because all the shell casing is supposed to do is give you feed back if your sight moved. But what you really want is your eyes to tell you that and you want to train your eyes to see the sight. So since the shell casing doesn't reinforce "seeing" and probably makes you pay less attention to the sight I don't think I will do that drill anymore and just dry fire with the zip tie.

Last edited by GM_77; 03-10-2013 at 1:33 PM..
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Old 03-10-2013, 1:36 PM
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The shell casing drill is good (especially for trigger control) but you know it is not going to recoil, so your reflex to flinch is greatly reduced.

As GM_77 posted, using the dummy rounds during a live fire session will help more, because now you expect the recoil and the tendancy to flinch will come back. I have used it myself, and with some of my friends who are new shooters, the visual of flinching is of great help to fix the problem.

Take a buddy and load mags for each other while practicing "spot drills".
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Old 03-10-2013, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SonofWWIIDI View Post
The shell casing drill is good (especially for trigger control) but you know it is not going to recoil, so your reflex to flinch is greatly reduced.
Yes I thought that might be the case...

I also had an idea to combine with the "where's the dummy" live fire practice. First I will have someone else load my mags for me (so no chance I'm expecting it), but I can videotape myself from the side and review myself in addition to having a shooting buddy observe live.
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Old 03-10-2013, 6:53 PM
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Live fire can address flinching related to the blast and recoil, but it won't address the more likely flinch induced by anticipation.

Many folks this is the same thing as they believe anticipation refers to anticipation to recoil....and it generally is for beginners. But more practiced shooters also anticipate the shot breaking as the sights align on the target.

They are trying to make the shot go off as they see the aligned sights. This fails for two reasons:

1. The sights have moved between your recognition and your pressing the trigger.
2. Hurrying the trigger press usually means speeding up the pull, which results in a jerk on the trigger and the full force slamming into the frame.

To see if you are jerking, just dry fire at a blank piece of paper and watch the sights for movement.

To address anticipation, aim at a 1" dot and hold you sights on on it as you press the trigger slowly back. Don't speed up when you see the sights align and don't stop when the sights drift off...just keep the trigger moving as you press the trigger as a constant speed
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Old 03-10-2013, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Licht View Post
Yes I thought that might be the case...

I also had an idea to combine with the "where's the dummy" live fire practice. First I will have someone else load my mags for me (so no chance I'm expecting it), but I can videotape myself from the side and review myself in addition to having a shooting buddy observe live.
I also bought the shooting glasses that a video cam in and that seemed to show the flintch too.
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Old 03-10-2013, 7:56 PM
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Do you remember the manufaturer of those, or where you got them?
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Darryl Licht View Post
Do you remember the manufaturer of those, or where you got them?
The ones I have are iKam extreme, I think I got them at midway, but that was some time ago. Search for "iKam" and you're sure to find some links. I think I paid about $90 bucks for them.
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Old 03-11-2013, 7:35 PM
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Darryl Licht Darryl Licht is offline
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BTT
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"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one.
--Thomas Jefferson
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