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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: HOW MANY ROUNDS FOR A GOOD TRAINING DAY.
100 1 1.37%
200 21 28.77%
300 20 27.40%
400 9 12.33%
500 17 23.29%
600 2 2.74%
700 1 1.37%
800 1 1.37%
900 0 0%
1,000 1 1.37%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 03-08-2013, 3:59 PM
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Default HOW MANY ROUNDS FOR A GOOD TRAINING DAY?

Consider a full day of training lasting 8 hours but not necessarily shooting during all those 8 hours. At what point is it too few a rounds? There are outfits proposing that you can train well with only 200 rounds per day. Let's see what shooters consider enough ammo to get solid training but not too few whereby you don't get enough repetitions and too many whereby you're just wasting it.
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Last edited by ramzar; 03-08-2013 at 4:02 PM..
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Old 03-08-2013, 5:16 PM
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Honestly I feel after 200 rounds you will have identified what things you need to work on. Continuing to shoot past that the same day I don't imagine will yield better results. I took a class recently and had a very off day but at 500 rounds my hands were raw an red. I taped up my front strap and continued but did no better. The following week during a typical competition I snuck off to a bay and practiced what I had trouble with that day and did just fine. Took me maybe 50 rounds to figure that out.

Honestly if there are things that need work it will take practice and time. That's why I don't understand why some choose to just shoot class after class. At some point you will have to practice what you learned an master it. This will take time and most importantly running those drills on a variety of days will show if you understand what is needed, you are fatigued, or you have the skill but its not yet consistent.

My training scars are pin point accuracy on demand. The way we shoot forces speed and accuracy but the definition of said accuracy can change. Shooting a 4 inch zone at all distances while moving is sure harder then an entire A zone on a competition target. I question the value of this style of training because I see good an bad in it. Either way at my level I should have no issue with this but the day of the class I sure sucked it up, lol. Point being for a variety of reason things didn't click that day so 500 rounds didn't help that. Next week 50 rounds accomplished same thing and showed me what I was doing wrong.

Honestly I feel the IDPA classifier is all one needs to learn where they are at. It pokes at every possible issue one may have handling a gun and being accurate. There may be tricks trainers show you followed by a "what if" scenario but those are endless. The only thing you can prepare for is accuracy, gun handling, and speed. Everything else will forever be changing and impossible to prepare for. Learning some magic ninja stuff is cool but its education followed by demonstration. Repeat that a dozen times and move on. Practice that stuff at a later time and master it.

Last edited by Brian1979; 03-08-2013 at 5:30 PM..
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Old 03-08-2013, 6:07 PM
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Anything beyond 200-250 is just rote memory and not intuition.
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Old 03-08-2013, 6:45 PM
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Another factor I've seen training people, is after a certain number of rounds, they are worn out, hurting, checking out, just going through the motions, and not learning anything additional. Physical conditioning, weather, hydration, what gear they are using all play a factor in how soon someone "hits the wall." What level your training at is also a factor of how much ammo your going through. A beginner class you can get by subsituting alot of live fire for dry fire since your working on fundimentals.
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
Another factor I've seen training people, is after a certain number of rounds, they are worn out, hurting, checking out, just going through the motions, and not learning anything additional. Physical conditioning, weather, hydration, what gear they are using all play a factor in how soon someone "hits the wall." What level your training at is also a factor of how much ammo your going through. A beginner class you can get by subsituting alot of live fire for dry fire since your working on fundimentals.
To that I'd add mental conditioning and stamina. That does translate to the individual's abilities and mileage.
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:27 PM
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I go for long days of 9 hours at the range with just one other fellow shooter. Either him or me are shooting for a good 8 hours. It's not the same thing over and over again but many timed and scored drills (hot or cold) at various distances including like IDPA Classifier, 10-8 pistol test, etc.

Towards the afternoon specially on hot days shooters need to focus and concentrate even harder mentally since physical and mental fatigue sets in. What doesn't break you makes you stronger.

In these long days we go through 600+ rounds. I make every single round count. I try that always.

Much rather have one great training day a month with many repititions of weak points than weekly long sessions of shooting games with 200-250 rounds in an 8 hour interval.
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:29 PM
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Don't base the quality of your training day based on the round count fired. There is plenty training that can be done with little or no rounds fired.
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:31 PM
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200 per day is plenty for most instruction...quite a bit less for 1:1 instruction...and the limiting factor is information overload.

I've even seen high intensity competition classes that didn't go much over 300 per day...and that was just because they were doing technique applications on stages
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Don't base the quality of your training day based on the round count fired. There is plenty training that can be done with little or no rounds fired.
Absolutely. Excluding dry fire, movements, class instruction, tactics, dry runs, etc.
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
200 per day is plenty for most instruction...quite a bit less for 1:1 instruction...and the limiting factor is information overload.

I've even seen high intensity competition classes that didn't go much over 300 per day...and that was just because they were doing technique applications on stages
I don't know of a class of 8+ hours that I've been to in the past 3 years where we shot less than 350 rounds per day. Exclude pure dry fire or movements, etc.
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Last edited by ramzar; 03-08-2013 at 8:52 PM.. Reason: 350 rounds per day NOT 400 hours per day
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Old 03-08-2013, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
Anything beyond 200-250 is just rote memory and not intuition.
Competition shooters are conditioned to shooting 125-300 rounds over 8 hours with long periods of rest and conversation (nothing wrong with that).
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:23 PM
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I find it interesting that you pose a question, which seems slanted toward justifying shooting more rounds in a training situation.

Then when everyone seems to lean toward the lower end of your scale, you feel the need to argue against our experience.

It reminds me of a client I once taught basic grip, stance and trigger management, who seemed incredulous that I had them consistently shooting inside 2.5" (small post-it note) at 7 yards having only expended 20 rounds
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I find it interesting that you pose a question, which seems slanted toward justifying shooting more rounds in a training situation.

Then when everyone seems to lean toward the lower end of your scale, you feel the need to argue against our experience.

It reminds me of a client I once taught basic grip, stance and trigger management, who seemed incredulous that I had them consistently shooting inside 2.5" (small post-it note) at 7 yards having only expended 20 rounds
Not the least bit. Just accentuating the fact that no classes I've attended the past 3 years with major live-fire portions have had less than about 350 rounds per day. Class size, individual instruction or lecture portion do cut into actual shooting. Also, for example, some instructors condition shooters to just one round to the pelvic + one round to center mass + one to the head consistently to save ammo instead of changing things up.
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:40 PM
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Perhaps I should've emphasized an 8+ hour day of training and not classroom teaching or one-on-one teaching (with lots of personal diagnostics) or 8 hours at the range with only 20 minutes of actual shooting...

I guess I'd have to cater my polls more scientifically but it still will not allow the excluded to participate.

Oh well!
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Old 03-08-2013, 8:57 PM
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Back in September 2012 we had an Advanced Handgun class with Kyle Defoor when we went through 700 rounds over 2 days. Two individuals quit the class after the first day because the round count was too low. However, the first day you're building a foundation and then on day 2 you get into advanced drills and repetitions to hone in on these instructions/drills.

Some of these larger classes with 20+ shooters definitely reduce the round count basically because the shooters only shoot in relays. Same with Ken Hackathorn in October.
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Old 03-09-2013, 1:24 AM
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As Larry Vickers said during a class of his I attended, a realistic training goal is 300 rounds +/- each training day. I've found this to be true in the classes I've taken with other instructors as well.

More of a quality over quantity approach as far as live fire training is concerned, especially now moreso.
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Old 03-09-2013, 5:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atekhed View Post
As Larry Vickers said during a class of his I attended, a realistic training goal is 300 rounds +/- each training day.
Larry's classes are more like 400 rounds per day:
Ammunition for students of 2013 Vickers Tactical classes
About 400-500 rounds per day was the norm for most trainers except high-round classes with the likes of Dave Harrington, Jeff Gonzales and Chris Costa where you do many repetitions to hone in the learnt lessons. With them it was anywhere from 650 to 850 rounds per day.

The level of the class and number of shooters (and instructors / RSO) also affect round count.
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Old 03-09-2013, 5:28 AM
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Ramzar, just what are you preparing for? At some point much of what you are trying to prove makes no practical sense. Unless I am mistaken and you arent a solider, hit man, or real life rambo. Who is going to be in a 8 hour fire fight where every round needs to be head shot regardless of your mental/physical condition?

Its awesome you practice that much but at some point one has to question why? More importantly most people doing these classes have no ccw, arent cops, arent soldiers, but still seem to think a Tier 1 level of ability is what they need to survive some fictitious day long gun battle using both pistol and rifle, lol.
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Old 03-09-2013, 5:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post

It reminds me of a client I once taught basic grip, stance and trigger management, who seemed incredulous that I had them consistently shooting inside 2.5" (small post-it note) at 7 yards having only expended 20 rounds
Yea, that's just wrong. You didn't charge enough money, take enough time or shoot enough rounds. What a rip off (well except for the part where the guy actually learns the fundamentals of stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control and can shoot small groups on demand).
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Old 03-09-2013, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
More importantly most people doing these classes have no ccw, arent cops, arent soldiers, but still seem to think a Tier 1 level of ability is what they need to survive some fictitious day long gun battle using both pistol and rifle, lol.
It's called 3 gun, and it does take all day long for several days.
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Old 03-09-2013, 8:41 AM
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I'd say ~400 going off of Pat McNamara's round count pre ammo nerf. He dedicates a lot of his time outside of classes researching and perfecting the learning/teaching performance curve in shooting.
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Old 03-09-2013, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
I don't know of a class of 8+ hours that I've been to in the past 3 years where we shot less than 350 rounds per day. Exclude pure dry fire or movements, etc.
That's a pretty good average number, IMHO. Some classes will shoot quite a bit more, and others significantly less.
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Old 03-09-2013, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
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Ramzar, just what are you preparing for? At some point much of what you are trying to prove makes no practical sense.
It's call life-style. Just as in martial arts - there is no limit to training and learning.
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Old 03-09-2013, 9:24 PM
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It's called...Ramzar is the only one who can afford to shoot that much even in this current drought
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Old 03-09-2013, 9:31 PM
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So train for CCW scenarios and dont have a CCW??? I am just wondering where some people are going with this stuff? Train drawing from a holster which without a ccw wont ever happen. The gun will be on a night stand etc and at that point maybe practice for some home tactics. I guess at some point the end result needs to make some practical sense and be of use. Know if you practice because you compete that would make complete sense. Problem is many hear are talking about taking classes which I am directing my response to.

Anyone this intense with training I would encourage to move to an area like SBD where you can actually CCW and make all the money and time spent worth while. Until then I still dont see the point. Martial arts can be used any where any time so that makes perfect sense. Martial arts for sword fighting wouldnt make much sense unless you carry a sword daily. Training with a handgun makes no sense if you cant carry one. Maybe I just figured this all out.... It doesnt make sense. I got it now.

Last edited by Brian1979; 03-09-2013 at 9:42 PM..
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Old 03-09-2013, 9:40 PM
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When I am getting ready for the IRC, I generally practice the Standards nearly every time I go out.. I usually run through that about 6 times.. 36 rounds per run racks up 216 rounds.. After practicing the fixed time stuff, I usually have about 84 rounds to work on my other stuff, like shooting on the move and the like.. Knowing what 9, 7, and 10 seconds feels like is something you need to know.. the two 10 second strings require a mandatory reload.. it's nice to know how much time you have if your reload runs in the 2.25-2.5 second range.. so you have a total of 7.80 seconds to get 12 rounds off at 10 yards freestyle (10 seconds plus the .30 second allowance once the buzzer starts to go off, 10.31 seconds is an "overtime shot which costs you 10 seconds (or 5, one or the other)) or the same time to do strong hand, reload, weak hand at 3 yards..

The good thing about the standards is that it teaches you to take your time, but be deliberate in how you manage your time..

In most cases, you will never shoot a major match in a single day that requires you to fire 300 rounds.. most are in the range of a bit over 200 rounds.. but firing a min of 300 will keep you used to shooting a regular major match and builds in a possible 2-3 reshoots..

Last edited by sargenv; 03-09-2013 at 9:42 PM..
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Old 03-09-2013, 9:53 PM
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So train for CCW scenarios and dont have a CCW???
Why are you assuming only people with a valid CCW will have a weapon available to them at any given point?
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:16 PM
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Today I practiced another something quite varied with about 350-400 rounds. Back to back Action Pistol (Limited 10) and then IDPA all within about a 5 hour window not counting commute.

My recent foresight was getting enough 9mm to last my mileage through the Fall. Not shooting 5.56mm until things calm down.

Inordinate times call for inordinate practices which can/will stretch your budget and/or skill sets.

It's all about non conformance to artificial constraints.
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Old 03-10-2013, 5:32 AM
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Why are you assuming only people with a valid CCW will have a weapon available to them at any given point?
I dont think you want to elaborate on this, if you are smart. If you mean carrying a knife and studying knife fighting skills then that would be a great option. If you mean carrying a gun illegally like a gang banger I would just, shhhhh....
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Old 03-10-2013, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
Why are you assuming only people with a valid CCW will have a weapon available to them at any given point?
So you walk around your house with a gun on without a CCW permit? Or is it just by the bedside? And what do you practice? Dark house scenarios, drawing from the night stand shooting from laying down? I have run stages like that back when I used to manage the Apple Valley IDPA, and even though most people believe they can do well, they can't.
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Old 03-10-2013, 8:03 AM
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Round count for training should depend on the topic and level.

I've spent a week at a sniper class with 7 of the 10 hours per day on a single relay line and didn't shot more than 60 rounds on any day. The week averaged out at about 40 rounds/day. I've also been to an advanced carbine class where the round count was ~650 rounds/day. I felt both provided excellent training and there was no waste of ammo.

It just comes down to what the goals are and where the students starting point is.
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Old 03-10-2013, 8:11 AM
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I would say 200 - 300 rounds. At some point fatigue sets and and you might as well pack up and go home. Better to start fresh another day.
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Old 03-10-2013, 1:36 PM
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Martial arts for sword fighting wouldnt make much sense unless you carry a sword daily. Training with a handgun makes no sense if you cant carry one.
Shinken sword arts is live and vibrant and not because they carry swords on daily basis, but to polish themselves and instill self discipline. Fencing is not a waste of time just cuz you can't carry one. It's a life style. Black powder shooting is also an art but we don't really use that for defense when we can use our pistol. Things we do don't necessarily have to reflect what we do on daily basis. often it's the process of learning that counts. You are equating practicality with necessity.

CCW is an art in it self and there is nothing wrong with mastering it even if you don't carry conceal. Perhaps a person may want to become an instructor of some sort in the future. If you are a student of the Way of the Gun - learn everything you can...a life style
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Old 03-11-2013, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
I dont think you want to elaborate on this, if you are smart. If you mean carrying a knife and studying knife fighting skills then that would be a great option. If you mean carrying a gun illegally like a gang banger I would just, shhhhh....
I would be happy to elaborate on this. Again, you seem to think only people with a CCW will EVER had a holstered pistol on them therefore people without a CCW will gain nothing by taking training classes. I think your a very wrong. Many people without a CCW legally carry a pistol on their person. In your home, on your property, on your ranch, in your shop/store/place of business, security guards, at the gun range, shooting firearm competitions, hunters and fishermen, etc. Now, how much of these training classes are about the draw? Not a whole lot after the basics, so the bulk of the learning is about shooting and tactics, after the gun is in your hands. There are many ways people can have access to firearms in a legal way, yet deploy them quickly. Your notion that the skills learned in firearms training classes and practice is ONLY suitable for CCW holders is off base and what I take issue with.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixicus View Post
Round count for training should depend on the topic and level.

I've spent a week at a sniper class with 7 of the 10 hours per day on a single relay line and didn't shot more than 60 rounds on any day. The week averaged out at about 40 rounds/day. I've also been to an advanced carbine class where the round count was ~650 rounds/day. I felt both provided excellent training and there was no waste of ammo.

It just comes down to what the goals are and where the students starting point is.
Very pertinent advise/response on several levels.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hanzo View Post
Shinken sword arts is live and vibrant and not because they carry swords on daily basis, but to polish themselves and instill self discipline. Fencing is not a waste of time just cuz you can't carry one. It's a life style. Black powder shooting is also an art but we don't really use that for defense when we can use our pistol. Things we do don't necessarily have to reflect what we do on daily basis. often it's the process of learning that counts. You are equating practicality with necessity.

CCW is an art in it self and there is nothing wrong with mastering it even if you don't carry conceal. Perhaps a person may want to become an instructor of some sort in the future. If you are a student of the Way of the Gun - learn everything you can...a life style
The benefits of fencing are eternal as is chess.

The teachings of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz and Machiavelli are not for the history books. History as we know it is only a few thousand years old and that's just a very minor fraction in the history of time.

Some of the best, most enjoyable and practical self-defense training I ever had was fencing mostly with a foil but some sabre and epee as well. I liked foil best due to its pinpoint accuracy. It didn't start as a goal towards self-defense training. It conditions and excels you at reflexes, offensive/defensive strategies, decision-making, tactics, discipline, mental & physical conditioning, etc. If I had to choose just one trait it'd be reflexes which mostly accentuate fast & intuitive decision-making.

Personally and from experience indecision kills.

Over-training beyond your personal self-defense goals is always a good thing, could save the day and personally does not exist in my vocabulary.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:31 PM
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In my mind, it's when fatigue sets in that you really start to make gains. Anybody can shoot when they feel great. It's when you struggle that you develop discipline and focus.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:45 AM
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ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
... It's all about non conformance to artificial constraints.
Yup.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:49 AM
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Excluding basics, my classes have been 300-400
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Old 03-12-2013, 8:47 PM
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Larry Vickers said his rule is 300 rounds or 3:00. Past that he starts to lose people.
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