Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-27-2013, 8:54 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Why the 4473 Can't Be Used for Gun Confiscation

The closest indoor gun range to me is a 60 minute drive on the interstate each way, so during the winter months up here in South Dakota I get 2 hours of time to wax philosophic on topics regarding firearms. On the last trip I passed the time mentally wondering how the govt. would go about building a national gun registry incident to confiscation.

I see many posts online of folk who think that all the ATF need do to create one is drive to the local FFL and demand their 4473s. Voila! Instant database, no?

Well, not quite. The dealer must keep the documentation for 20 years after its created. Naturally, the older the 4473 is the more likely the document is obsolete. In order to use a database for confiscation or taxation purposes, one needs a way to contact the original owner and to discern the whereabouts of the specific firearm. The older a 4473 is, the less likely the original buyer has the firearm , still lives on the address on the document, or even has the same name. As such, only a percentage of the 4473s on file are accurate enough to be compiled and useful for any kind of database-and if the weapon in question has been sold a lot, multiple papers could be on file at several FFLs for the same exact firearm.

Thus, 4473s are useless for building a national database. Well ST, that's all well and good but what about states like California which have already taken the innovative step of creating their own localized databases?

In point of fact, state databases like the DROS actually help obstruct the creation of a national database. WHAT ?

Yes, statewide databases in fact do help our cause in one respect. While this isn't likely to bring you guys any comfort, note that the more databases you have, the more possibilities for errors and duplicate entries . There is no process for de-listing a firearm which has left California, and its almost certain that guns sold in NY and other gun-registry states have made their way into and out of CA over the decades. Just like with the 4473, there's likely tens of thousands of firearms with duplicate entries all across the country, associated to different owners at different times. Theres likely to be an equal number of guns which were sold and registered in CA which have left the state to non-registry states , so as far as the DROS system is concerned the gun's dropped off the face of the Earth.

In short, if the Anti's somehow manage to tie in different states' gun registry computer systems, 4473s, and somehow con a defense contractor to build a computer facility capable of storing the data, it'll be so error riddled such a consolidated system is useless for national disarmament purposes.

Thus, in order to pull the pin on firearm seizure and/or taxation the anti's must start with a clean sheet of paper, no matter what we currently have in place today.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:02 PM
Capybara's Avatar
Capybara Capybara is offline
CGSSA Coordinator
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 9,702
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

I'd like to think that you are correct. I'd also like to hope that we don't have to find out in our lifetimes.
__________________
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor, Shotgun Instructor and Range Safety Officer



Sign up now for the next Ventura County Reloading Workshop!
VC Reloading Club on Facebook
VC Reloading Club on Twitter @VCReloading
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:04 PM
AA9MM's Avatar
AA9MM AA9MM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 127
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

__________________

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
This ones for fighting, this ones for fun!"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:06 PM
JeremyKX JeremyKX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,526
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Interesting writeup.

I'm happy to see such a well thought out hypothesis instead of all the doom and gloom.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:10 PM
Moto's Avatar
Moto Moto is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 826
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Stupid
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:15 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto View Post
Stupid
Care to elaborate?
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:16 PM
jwkincal's Avatar
jwkincal jwkincal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,239
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Fairly astute. Hand entered data transcribed from paper forms over a period of decades do not make reliable databases. That's my (very qualified professional) opinion.

That doesn't mean some politician won't someday think it's a good idea
__________________
Get the hell off the beach. Get up and get moving. Follow Me! --Aubrey Newman, Col, 24th INF; at the Battle of Leyte

Certainty of death... small chance of success... what are we waiting for? --Gimli, son of Gloin; on attacking the vast army of Mordor

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
--Patrick Henry; Virginia, 1775
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:17 PM
The Shadow's Avatar
The Shadow The Shadow is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,213
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
The closest indoor gun range to me is a 60 minute drive on the interstate each way, so during the winter months up here in South Dakota I get 2 hours of time to wax philosophic on topics regarding firearms. On the last trip I passed the time mentally wondering how the govt. would go about building a national gun registry incident to confiscation.

I see many posts online of folk who think that all the ATF need do to create one is drive to the local FFL and demand their 4473s. Voila! Instant database, no?

Well, not quite. The dealer must keep the documentation for 20 years after its created. Naturally, the older the 4473 is the more likely the document is obsolete. In order to use a database for confiscation or taxation purposes, one needs a way to contact the original owner and to discern the whereabouts of the specific firearm. The older a 4473 is, the less likely the original buyer has the firearm , still lives on the address on the document, or even has the same name. As such, only a percentage of the 4473s on file are accurate enough to be compiled and useful for any kind of database-and if the weapon in question has been sold a lot, multiple papers could be on file at several FFLs for the same exact firearm.

Thus, 4473s are useless for building a national database. Well ST, that's all well and good but what about states like California which have already taken the innovative step of creating their own localized databases?

In point of fact, state databases like the DROS actually help obstruct the creation of a national database. WHAT ?

Yes, statewide databases in fact do help our cause in one respect. While this isn't likely to bring you guys any comfort, note that the more databases you have, the more possibilities for errors and duplicate entries . There is no process for de-listing a firearm which has left California, and its almost certain that guns sold in NY and other gun-registry states have made their way into and out of CA over the decades. Just like with the 4473, there's likely tens of thousands of firearms with duplicate entries all across the country, associated to different owners at different times. Theres likely to be an equal number of guns which were sold and registered in CA which have left the state to non-registry states , so as far as the DROS system is concerned the gun's dropped off the face of the Earth.

In short, if the Anti's somehow manage to tie in different states' gun registry computer systems, 4473s, and somehow con a defense contractor to build a computer facility capable of storing the data, it'll be so error riddled such a consolidated system is useless for national disarmament purposes.

Thus, in order to pull the pin on firearm seizure and/or taxation the anti's must start with a clean sheet of paper, no matter what we currently have in place today.
Well, I'd like to say I agree with you but I can't. Updates of a persons whereabouts can be obtained through DMV records, or other public records. The government may not get all of the firearms, but they will get a large percentage.

As for a person moving from one state to another, people can be found through credit checks they've volunteered to do, employment information via their Social security number, and any number of other sources. Unless a person literally stops using ALL forms of traceable technology, and monetary instruments, and goes strictly with cash, they can be found, and that goes for the firearms they own. Those that they don't own are irrelevant, and may be found in someone elses possession.
__________________
Speaking about the destruction of the United States. "I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times, or die by suicide. Abraham Lincoln Speech at Edwardsville, IL, September 11, 1858

Godwin's law
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:20 PM
GoingPro's Avatar
GoingPro GoingPro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Los Angeles County
Posts: 1,411
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

I bet you guys 80 - 90 % of you guys will be law abiding citizens and turn in your stuff if this does happen... I've heard alot of talk at gun shops "I won't turn in anything, ill fight for my stuff" when i was at riflegear/ammo bros and when i brought up katrina half of the people didnt know what the govt. did to them.... If this passes and i'm going to be labeled a criminal than so be it... ill move the stuff that needs to be moved out of state.... and possibly house was targeted after home from the firing range...dont know what happen to the rest of the stuff.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:41 PM
bohoki's Avatar
bohoki bohoki is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 95492
Posts: 17,675
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

yup they are only "evidence of transfer" not that the person still has the gun


heck after owning a gun about 2 weeks i often have a tragic boating accident
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-27-2013, 9:51 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow View Post
Well, I'd like to say I agree with you but I can't. Updates of a persons whereabouts can be obtained through DMV records, or other public records. The government may not get all of the firearms, but they will get a large percentage..
If you're investigating one person, this is true. The resources of LE and the Federal government are more then capable of investigating someone's individual whereabouts to this extent.

Multiplying that effort X the billions of 4473s in circulation is beyond the resources of even our bloated Federal government. Considering ONE PERSON may generate 10 4473s -and I'd imagine some folks got way more then that floating around-that's a lot of DMV records and info the other side has to dig up. And, as we all know, the DMV often makes mistakes themselves.






Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow View Post
As for a person moving from one state to another, people can be found through credit checks they've volunteered to do, employment information via their Social security number, and any number of other sources. Unless a person literally stops using ALL forms of traceable technology, and monetary instruments, and goes strictly with cash, they can be found, and that goes for the firearms they own. Those that they don't own are irrelevant, and may be found in someone elses possession.

True;but the Federal government does not have unlimited resources, and other bureaucracies don't exactly operate at lightspeed themselves. Requesting a file from one department of a government agency to another department of the same government agency can take days itself. The backlog of credit checks, DMV and driver records, and all that required to verify a 4473 subject IN ADDITION to the state-level DROS, Illinois FOID, New York State's Registry, Mass.'s gun database, and cross referencing all of that data for accuracy is logistically just too demanding. You'd need a Department of 4473 Collation just to even fathom processing it, at a cost of billions. And, since obstructing a 4473 sale can only be done at the Federal level for 3 days without explicit cause, ongoing gun sales would be taking place as the anti's compiled this immense warehouse of paper. It would be like running on a treadmill with a constantly increasing speed setting.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:34 PM
KON5T KON5T is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PRK
Posts: 757
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

will i live another 20 years? hmm dunno about that.....
__________________
it is not an easy thing to meet your maker (blade runner- 1982)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:18 PM
slo5oh slo5oh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 733
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Here's the problem i see. If they do as you said above and pull everything together into one database they won't care what you actually have. If you bought and sold 50 guns in the last 20 years expect them to knock on your door with a list of nearly all of them and they will question you on every single one. They don't care if records say you sold it, they will question you as if that paperwork were a lie.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-28-2013, 5:57 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slo5oh View Post
Here's the problem i see. If they do as you said above and pull everything together into one database they won't care what you actually have. If you bought and sold 50 guns in the last 20 years expect them to knock on your door with a list of nearly all of them and they will question you on every single one. They don't care if records say you sold it, they will question you as if that paperwork were a lie.
Remember the Judiciary here. If the database has errors it introduces reasonable doubt into the equation,so in court any charges brought against a gun owner will be this thrown out. How can the state fine/ arrest/ seize your property with an inaccurate record?
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-28-2013, 6:22 AM
LuvLRBs LuvLRBs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 565
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Making something illegal greatly reduces it's value and usefulness. If guns were illegal, one couldn't go to a range, or out to the desert, or even shoot on private property where a distant neighbor might hear. So you have your guns but can't do anything with them except keep them hidden. Then the penalties for hidden guns would be felonies, so the vast majority of productive citizens wouldn't risk becoming a convicted felon. There would over the years be periods of forgiveness and reward, where one could turn in firearms for cash and no penalty. Eventually over a couple of decades they would have most of them, and the social stigma of owning such a horrific object would mean only true criminals would posess them. No need to go door to door.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-28-2013, 6:47 AM
Meplat's Avatar
Meplat Meplat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 6,919
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Care to elaborate?
I will. So, what do you think will keep them from shooting your dog, your wife, or your kids, while serving the warrant to collect that SKS that you never actually owned? There is almost never any accountability for LE. A government that engages in gun confiscation is a terrorist entity to start with; they want the general public to be in terror of them. Random and unaccountable violence and persecution actually serves their purposes better than accurate and orderly confiscation.
__________________
Take not lightly liberty
To have it you must live it
And like love, don't you see
To keep it you must give it

"I will talk with you no more.
I will go now, and fight you."
(Red Cloud)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-28-2013, 6:49 AM
Just Dave's Avatar
Just Dave Just Dave is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Commonwealth of Commonsense (It's not that complicated)
Posts: 6,907
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Databases can also be hacked and brought down.
__________________
Nehemiah 4:14 ...Remember the Lord, great and awesome, and fight for your brethren, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This is a discussion forum, that's what happens on a discussion forum.
People talk, discuss, speculate and share information.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."~John Adams 1798
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-28-2013, 6:59 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
I will. So, what do you think will keep them from shooting your dog, your wife, or your kids, while serving the warrant to collect that SKS that you never actually owned? There is almost never any accountability for LE. A government that engages in gun confiscation is a terrorist entity to start with; they want the general public to be in terror of them. Random and unaccountable violence and persecution actually serves their purposes better than accurate and orderly confiscation.
Law enforcement might not have accountability: but their elected overlords might. Such politicians don't care about the Consitution, but they do care about public relations and money. One wrongful arrest suit brought on by a tree hugging liberal who sold their guns , and the entire project grinds to a halt due to negative public opinion. If only for self preservation, politicians will not fund or attach their name to a project which can go sideways like that; so the antis will need to start from scratch with a fresh registry , if only as an insurance policy against a mistake that can get them sacked or sued.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-28-2013, 7:08 AM
AyatollahGondola's Avatar
AyatollahGondola AyatollahGondola is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,168
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Remember the Judiciary here. If the database has errors it introduces reasonable doubt into the equation,so in court any charges brought against a gun owner will be this thrown out. How can the state fine/ arrest/ seize your property with an inaccurate record?
Not to cast doubt on your entire theory, but in this part of it, if it comes to confiscation, I doubt the judiciary is going to be standing up for us, when we aren't doing so either.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-28-2013, 7:09 AM
tcrpe's Avatar
tcrpe tcrpe is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bakersfield, California
Posts: 10,272
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Why not? Collect up the books from the LGSs, start kicking down doors.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-28-2013, 7:37 AM
thetfox's Avatar
thetfox thetfox is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Castaic
Posts: 78
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
The closest indoor gun range to me is a 60 minute drive on the interstate each way, so during the winter months up here in South Dakota I get 2 hours of time to wax philosophic on topics regarding firearms. On the last trip I passed the time mentally wondering how the govt. would go about building a national gun registry incident to confiscation.

I see many posts online of folk who think that all the ATF need do to create one is drive to the local FFL and demand their 4473s. Voila! Instant database, no?

Well, not quite. The dealer must keep the documentation for 20 years after its created. Naturally, the older the 4473 is the more likely the document is obsolete. In order to use a database for confiscation or taxation purposes, one needs a way to contact the original owner and to discern the whereabouts of the specific firearm. The older a 4473 is, the less likely the original buyer has the firearm , still lives on the address on the document, or even has the same name. As such, only a percentage of the 4473s on file are accurate enough to be compiled and useful for any kind of database-and if the weapon in question has been sold a lot, multiple papers could be on file at several FFLs for the same exact firearm.

Thus, 4473s are useless for building a national database. Well ST, that's all well and good but what about states like California which have already taken the innovative step of creating their own localized databases?

In point of fact, state databases like the DROS actually help obstruct the creation of a national database. WHAT ?

Yes, statewide databases in fact do help our cause in one respect. While this isn't likely to bring you guys any comfort, note that the more databases you have, the more possibilities for errors and duplicate entries . There is no process for de-listing a firearm which has left California, and its almost certain that guns sold in NY and other gun-registry states have made their way into and out of CA over the decades. Just like with the 4473, there's likely tens of thousands of firearms with duplicate entries all across the country, associated to different owners at different times. Theres likely to be an equal number of guns which were sold and registered in CA which have left the state to non-registry states , so as far as the DROS system is concerned the gun's dropped off the face of the Earth.

In short, if the Anti's somehow manage to tie in different states' gun registry computer systems, 4473s, and somehow con a defense contractor to build a computer facility capable of storing the data, it'll be so error riddled such a consolidated system is useless for national disarmament purposes.

Thus, in order to pull the pin on firearm seizure and/or taxation the anti's must start with a clean sheet of paper, no matter what we currently have in place today.
While I agree it is unlikely they could use those forms or local databases for confiscation, it would not be for the reasons you claim. Assuming they could collect all the paper forms and enter them all into a database (this is a big assumption, because the amount of man hours needed for this would be ridiculous), a computer database could easily select the most current transfer and eliminate or obsolete (more likely) all other entries. The fact that firearms transfer to and from people making old records obsolete is negligible in the 21st century. Also, people who have changed addresses, phone numbers, died, or in some cases even changed their name could be easily looked up automatically by a computer system, that automatically updates each entry every time someone's address, etc. changes. This would take a very well written program and connection with a few databases that are currently very difficult to connect with, and they certainly would not be perfect, but this is much more plausible than having the man hours to collect and enter every form in the US for the past 20 years.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:05 AM
Davidwhitewolf's Avatar
Davidwhitewolf Davidwhitewolf is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Beautiful Skulls County
Posts: 610
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

I think the OP's made an excellent point. In practical terms it's an irrelevant point if we face a Belgian Corporal scenario, but short of that situation, these are real, practical problems any would-be confiscators would have to overcome.

I was on a conference call with one of the Obamacare architects a couple months ago and he sounded genuinely puzzled each time he mentioned "we didn't expect this amount of resistance" from the States to implementation of Obamacare. I expect he and his ilk would be similarly confounded at the sheer number of purported gun owners who insisted the "database" was simply wrong, and were loudly insistent about it.
__________________

NRA Life Member


Honorary Board Member, the Calguns Foundation
DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization.
Yes I'm an attorney. No, this post does not contain legal advice or opinion.
Read me@RNS

Last edited by Davidwhitewolf; 02-28-2013 at 8:11 AM.. Reason: "from" has an "m" that I forgot to type the first time.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:11 AM
Davidwhitewolf's Avatar
Davidwhitewolf Davidwhitewolf is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Beautiful Skulls County
Posts: 610
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetfox View Post
While I agree it is unlikely they could use those forms or local databases for confiscation, it would not be for the reasons you claim. ... a computer database could easily select the most current transfer and eliminate or obsolete (more likely) all other entries. ... people who have changed addresses, phone numbers, died, or in some cases even changed their name could be easily looked up automatically by a computer system....
Well, yes, if the point is just to identify you as a gun owner, and then confiscate all your guns, you would be entirely correct. But what seems far more likely to me is that only certain types of guns are to be confiscated, and the bureaucratic requirement would be to have sufficient "evidence" that you were withholding that firearm from confiscation to justify whatever measures they wanted to take against scofflaws (which, of course, could include confiscating all of your firearms on the basis that you're withholding the one). In such a scenario, the OP's point I think works. Not to prevent confiscation entirely, but to make it much harder to justify and subject to lots of plausible, angry, sympathetic resistance.
__________________

NRA Life Member


Honorary Board Member, the Calguns Foundation
DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization.
Yes I'm an attorney. No, this post does not contain legal advice or opinion.
Read me@RNS
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:15 AM
email email is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,275
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Let's not forget, In the case of taxation, it's guilty until proven innocent. Not the other way around. Thus, the 4473's would actually serve their purpose quite well.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:17 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,898
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

With the amount of personal information stored in all kinds of databases anymore I dont think it would be hard for ATF to locate someone even from an old 4473.....especially if they had put their SSN on the 4473. With that piece of info they could locate you with in a matter of minutes for the average person. They'd know where you live, where you work, where you do your banking, how much money you make, check your credit card purchses for recent gun related purchases etc.

Might you still have that gun you bought 20yrs ago? Maybe not, but they you had one, and are likely to have others. That old 4473 identifies you as at least a one-time gun owner, and under a totalitarian regime...that would be PC enough to come check you out and look for that old gun and anything else they might find.
__________________
"Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

Quote for the day:
Quote:
"..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:20 AM
paul0660's Avatar
paul0660 paul0660 is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ukiah
Posts: 15,706
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

ST is right, but the current plans would make 4473 old school.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:22 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
With the amount of personal information stored in all kinds of databases anymore I dont think it would be hard for ATF to locate someone even from an old 4473.....especially if they had put their SSN on the 4473. With that piece of info they could locate you with in a matter of minutes for the average person. They'd know where you live, where you work, where you do your banking, how much money you make, check your credit card purchses for recent gun related purchases etc.

Might you still have that gun you bought 20yrs ago? Maybe not, but they you had one, and are likely to have others. That old 4473 identifies you as at least a one-time gun owner, and under a totalitarian regime...that would be PC enough to come check you out and look for that old gun and anything else they might find.
I must stress that my original post is on the topic of the Form 4473 being used to create a national gun database . That is not the same thing as me saying confiscation is impossible, a claim I won't begin to make in any medium.Taken to extremes a totalitarian regime need only ban guns by decree and shoot anyone they find whose armed.No piece of paper will prevent that outcome.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:23 AM
paul0660's Avatar
paul0660 paul0660 is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ukiah
Posts: 15,706
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by email View Post
Let's not forget, In the case of taxation, it's guilty until proven innocent. Not the other way around. Thus, the 4473's would actually serve their purpose quite well.
Not a good analogy imo, currently. For instance the no longer in possession form offered by California is not required. They could easily make it so, however.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:35 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,898
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
I must stress that my original post is on the topic of the Form 4473 being used to create a national gun database . That is not the same thing as me saying confiscation is impossible, a claim I won't begin to make in any medium.Taken to extremes a totalitarian regime need only ban guns by decree and shoot anyone they find whose armed.No piece of paper will prevent that outcome.
Point taken. They could at least create a database of gun-owners, or suspected gun-owners though.
__________________
"Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

Quote for the day:
Quote:
"..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:41 AM
Clownpuncher's Avatar
Clownpuncher Clownpuncher is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mexifornia IE
Posts: 1,180
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
In short, if the Anti's somehow manage to tie in different states' gun registry computer systems, 4473s, and somehow con a defense contractor to build a computer facility capable of storing the data, it'll be so error riddled such a consolidated system is useless for national disarmament purposes.
I agree with most of your post in principle, however, I disagree with the above statement intimating that a consolidated system is useless for disarmament purposes.

If the monumental task were undertaken to gather and compile all of the above data there would be a ton of errors, however, that will not stop them from using it as a probable cause should it come to national disarmament. Meaning, you owned a gun at one time or another so we need to search for what you have now.

As for thoughts of that not being possible, if they find the resources and can compile the data and build a database as large as the one you are suggesting, it would be very possible to track you down.

As for mistakes, it won't matter. Just like it doesn't matter with the no fly lists.
__________________
Support CalGuns by purchasing stuff through this Amazon link: http://www.shop42a.com

Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:54 AM
Paul S's Avatar
Paul S Paul S is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 1,771
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Making something illegal greatly reduces it's value and usefulness. If guns were illegal, one couldn't go to a range, or out to the desert, or even shoot on private property where a distant neighbor might hear. So you have your guns but can't do anything with them except keep them hidden. Then the penalties for hidden guns would be felonies, so the vast majority of productive citizens wouldn't risk becoming a convicted felon. There would over the years be periods of forgiveness and reward, where one could turn in firearms for cash and no penalty. Eventually over a couple of decades they would have most of them, and the social stigma of owning such a horrific object would mean only true criminals would posess them. No need to go door to door.
That's the exact prescription Great Britain used.
__________________
Paul S
“Cogito, ergo armatum sum: I think, therefore I am armed.” - Collection of Quotes - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:58 AM
Full Clip's Avatar
Full Clip Full Clip is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Playa Vista, CA
Posts: 8,994
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

There was a time when I wasn't worried about the IRS having my healthcare information, either...
Things change...
__________________
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” — Robert A. Heinlein

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds” — Samuel Adams
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:06 AM
Whiskey_Sauer's Avatar
Whiskey_Sauer Whiskey_Sauer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 922
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
True;but the Federal government does not have unlimited resources, and other bureaucracies don't exactly operate at lightspeed themselves. Requesting a file from one department of a government agency to another department of the same government agency can take days itself. The backlog of credit checks, DMV and driver records, and all that required to verify a 4473 subject IN ADDITION to the state-level DROS, Illinois FOID, New York State's Registry, Mass.'s gun database, and cross referencing all of that data for accuracy is logistically just too demanding. You'd need a Department of 4473 Collation just to even fathom processing it, at a cost of billions. And, since obstructing a 4473 sale can only be done at the Federal level for 3 days without explicit cause, ongoing gun sales would be taking place as the anti's compiled this immense warehouse of paper. It would be like running on a treadmill with a constantly increasing speed setting.
Interesting premise, and I appreciate the discussion. However, what makes you think that a company like Google, operating on a government contract, couldn't knock out a working database very quickly? Frankly, it seems like something they could do with minimal effort, once all the 4473s are collected, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:43 AM
alfred1222's Avatar
alfred1222 alfred1222 is online now
NOT BANNED..yet
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Auburn, Alabama
Posts: 6,934
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvLRBs View Post
Making something illegal greatly reduces it's value and usefulness. If guns were illegal, one couldn't go to a range, or out to the desert, or even shoot on private property where a distant neighbor might hear. So you have your guns but can't do anything with them except keep them hidden. Then the penalties for hidden guns would be felonies, so the vast majority of productive citizens wouldn't risk becoming a convicted felon. There would over the years be periods of forgiveness and reward, where one could turn in firearms for cash and no penalty. Eventually over a couple of decades they would have most of them, and the social stigma of owning such a horrific object would mean only true criminals would posess them. No need to go door to door.
There are places one can build and shoot in that no sound is made
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
This guy is a complete and total idiot.
/thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Biden is only there so nobody assassinates Obama. He's like a bullet proof vest that drinks too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
It's right next to the part that says gays can get married and sluts get free birth control.
ΦΑ
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-28-2013, 11:22 AM
majtom94's Avatar
majtom94 majtom94 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In a Communist State
Posts: 1,105
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Maybe the analogy is the data that ancestry.com has access too. Think of the old paper records from early census.

Ancestry was able to locate my great grandfathers records from 1864. I was even able to learn where my great-great grandfathers buried in Alabama.

The 4477s could be used to build a database and a great portion would accurate.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-28-2013, 11:42 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey_Sauer View Post
Interesting premise, and I appreciate the discussion. However, what makes you think that a company like Google, operating on a government contract, couldn't knock out a working database very quickly? Frankly, it seems like something they could do with minimal effort, once all the 4473s are collected, of course.
The private sector is obviously very efficient at data mining and categorizing people, even to the point that its almost pre-cognition. Targets so good at it that they can predict when a customers pregnant before she is based on her buying pattern.

That sort of efficiency doesn't exist when it comes to government. The Air Force initiated a program to consolidate to travel and personnel computer systems into one system. The project failed at a cost of $500 million dollars-and the undertaking of consolidating the 4473s into a viable database dwarfs the above project. Without a profit motive, public employees won't go the extra mile to ensure accuracy and stability. Using a private contractor to construct the database would be a nightmare, since it would have to be a specific firm capable of accomplishing the programming-so they could name their price ,and cut corners with impunity.If the current projects are any sign, an effort to turn the 4473s into a database would end in an expensive scandal.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-28-2013, 11:59 AM
Born To Glock's Avatar
Born To Glock Born To Glock is offline
Resident Pork Rind Expert
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 875
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slo5oh View Post
Here's the problem i see. If they do as you said above and pull everything together into one database they won't care what you actually have. If you bought and sold 50 guns in the last 20 years expect them to knock on your door with a list of nearly all of them and they will question you on every single one. They don't care if records say you sold it, they will question you as if that paperwork were a lie.
Hopefully my question isn't too far off topic, but what I've been thinking is that if I were to find out that confiscation were taking place, I consider taking at least one of my firearms to a free state like Texas and put it into a safe deposit box that I already have there. And, what if, in addition to Texas, I also had such arrangements in states like Nevada and Arizona?

First, is this legal?

Second, if (back in CA now) the Sheriff or some other LEO were to come to my house and ask me about such and such firearms, I could just invoke my right to remain silent. Since my firearms are not located within their jurisdiction (obviously I'm assuming it's not federal agents who show up), they would not be able to seize them, nor would they be able to find them if they were to obtain a warrant and search my premises.

Thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:08 PM
The Shadow's Avatar
The Shadow The Shadow is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,213
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
If you're investigating one person, this is true. The resources of LE and the Federal government are more then capable of investigating someone's individual whereabouts to this extent.

Multiplying that effort X the billions of 4473s in circulation is beyond the resources of even our bloated Federal government. Considering ONE PERSON may generate 10 4473s -and I'd imagine some folks got way more then that floating around-that's a lot of DMV records and info the other side has to dig up. And, as we all know, the DMV often makes mistakes themselves.



True;but the Federal government does not have unlimited resources, and other bureaucracies don't exactly operate at lightspeed themselves. Requesting a file from one department of a government agency to another department of the same government agency can take days itself. The backlog of credit checks, DMV and driver records, and all that required to verify a 4473 subject IN ADDITION to the state-level DROS, Illinois FOID, New York State's Registry, Mass.'s gun database, and cross referencing all of that data for accuracy is logistically just too demanding. You'd need a Department of 4473 Collation just to even fathom processing it, at a cost of billions. And, since obstructing a 4473 sale can only be done at the Federal level for 3 days without explicit cause, ongoing gun sales would be taking place as the anti's compiled this immense warehouse of paper. It would be like running on a treadmill with a constantly increasing speed setting.
All you have to do is find one gun per person, and the others will follow. And all you have to do is find a persons address book or other contacts, and you will find their guns. People are creatures of habit and will hide things in places they are familiar with. It's only a matter of time. Having said that, you're right, government doesn't have unlimited resources, but time is on their side, and once they have YOU, they have everything else that belongs to you. Your only course of action if you want to become a ghost is to completely remake yourself into someone else. That means moving to a place that you've never lived in, and cutting off ties to people you currently know. In about seven to ten years, you will be completely under the radar if you make it to that point. But if you slip up and attract attention, the clock starts over.
__________________
Speaking about the destruction of the United States. "I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times, or die by suicide. Abraham Lincoln Speech at Edwardsville, IL, September 11, 1858

Godwin's law
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:12 PM
AA9MM's Avatar
AA9MM AA9MM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 127
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Not saying they won't try, Not saying they couldn't get SOME usefulness out of 'old' 4473s.. BUT!!!.. If it would be so effective, then Why would they be proposing mandatory registration of ALL firearms?? I think the OP has a point..
__________________

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.
This ones for fighting, this ones for fun!"

Last edited by AA9MM; 02-28-2013 at 12:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:43 PM
Lovin Lovin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The OP has a good point, but never underestimate the use of good OCR software and nearly limitless computing power.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:43 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.