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  #121  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:03 PM
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My point is, cops have an obligation and a responsibility that civilians* do not, whether they are on duty or not. They also have access to training that most civilians* do not.

Ideally, my view is that officers who have trained, qualified, and gotten permission to purchase fully functional AWs should be obligated by policy to keep them as close to hand as practical (i.e., in the trunk of their POVs), kinda like IDF members do. This added obligation will weed out some of the pretenders. That's not likely to happen, but let's at least give some of the LEOs the benefit of the doubt that they'd exercise their privilege with law enforcement in mind.
1) Your point is wrong- Law Enforcement has no legal obligation to protect you... Just ask the Supreme Court.

2) I don't really know that I would want a police department to make a policy for officers to "have to keep an AR-15" in their car. Criminals have in the past targeted LEO homes for guns and uniforms. If their Departmant passed such a policy, I think it would make their car a target too. What happens when the LEOs wife is out to the store with his kids and a group of gangbangers decide that they want the AW that HIS department SAYS he has to have in his POV. It doesn't matter if the AW is in the car or not if the gangbangers think it is! LEOs have enough to worry about at work to expect them to put that burden on their family too.

LEOs do a hard and dangerous job and a lot of time don't get enough credit.

One last thing...California is close enough to a police state already, I don't think we really need them running around like the IDF>
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NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...-Gene

Last edited by 5968; 10-09-2007 at 8:05 PM..
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  #122  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
Following rifles are authorized

Colt models:
LE6920
AR6721

Bushmaster:
XM15 E2S m-4 and HBAR profile
A3 16in carbine
Patrolman's carbine
Superlight Carbine
Xm15 E2s 20 in A3 and A2 stocks

Smith and Wesson:
M&P-15, -15A, -15T
What no LMTs????? ROCK RIVER???? STAG????

I always wonder who compiles these lists.......why limit yourselves???
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  #123  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Oswald2001 View Post
The more AR15's out their in personal use, the better.

It will only be a matter of time until it hits the court system.

If we are ever able to restore our stolen 2nd Amendment rights, it will be in the court system.

It could be because of these questions:


"How come cops can have AR15's for personal use?"

"If they can have them, why can't civilians have AR15's for personal use?"



This double standard, coupled with the fact that OLL's are plentiful and essentially the same as AR15's, make a good case for the repeal of the Kaliban rifle ban.
There is some traction here..........plus when they retire they get to keep the rifle.........
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  #124  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:16 PM
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Be careful out there, the Colt LE6920 is listed on Kasler list and is not a Cat 3 gun.
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  #125  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psriley View Post

If you're into dragging your AR-15 around everywhere you go in case you need to intervene in a crime in progress (that may not even involve you), or to defend yourself , I say to each his own. I'd opt to carry something a little more practical, if I could legally do so, but whatever. Just do me a favor and stay out of my neighborhood. My stucco isn't going to stop a .223 round fired in error.
When did I ever advocate "dragging" an AR-15 "around everywhere you go" to play cop???

You really don't get it do you?

Reread my post and you'll soon realize that you are really arguing with your own imagination.

Here are two other sign posts for you to argue with...
  • Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606). [Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.]

  • Only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high. [George F. Will, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.]

Have fun.
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  #126  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Be careful out there, the Colt LE6920 is listed on Kasler list and is not a Cat 3 gun.
True....but a reciever is just a piece of metal.....

You could drag up lots of stuff and DOJ letters on this one....

Not me, of course.........maybe for those super adventurous types.......
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  #127  
Old 10-09-2007, 8:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Be careful out there, the Colt LE6920 is listed on Kasler list and is not a Cat 3 gun.
PLUS....I am pretty sure a 6721 is marked AR-15.....I'll check later.....
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  #128  
Old 10-09-2007, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Shumba View Post
Wrong. The paperwork I saw was pretty specific that assembling a rifle was not approved. By the way, there is no way a legit CA FFL will sell you a Colt or Bushmaster lower (for assembly later) before you have the department paperwork.


If you are qualified per the LAPD requirements (UPR Cadre or Metro), you complete the paper work, get a letter that you are approved to buy the personal UPR (AR). Once you have the letter, you buy a TOTALLY COMPLETE FACTORY ASSEMBLED rifle from a dealer such as Pro Force in Brea. You get your new factory rifle, register it with the CA DOJ, have it inspected by LAPD armory, qualify with it, and turn in your old LAPD UPR. Now your personal rifle can be used for duty.

Also, if you already own a registed AW that is on the approved LAPD list, you can designate it as your personal duty UPR. Still need to have it inspected, qualify with it, and turn in old LAPD issued UPR.

You are correct in that it really isn't that complicated.

By the way, if these rifles are treated as a registered AW when you are not on duty, then technically, it must be transported in a locked container to and from work. Now, try to find another LEO who would ever give an LAPD officer a hard time for not correctly transporting his personal/duty AR.
Have you heard of Iggy????? Ask Bill about his tactics.
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  #129  
Old 10-09-2007, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 5968 View Post
1) Your point is wrong- Law Enforcement has no legal obligation to protect you... Just ask the Supreme Court.

2) I don't really know that I would want a police department to make a policy for officers to "have to keep an AR-15" in their car. Criminals have in the past targeted LEO homes for guns and uniforms. If their Departmant passed such a policy, I think it would make their car a target too. What happens when the LEOs wife is out to the store with his kids and a group of gangbangers decide that they want the AW that HIS department SAYS he has to have in his POV. It doesn't matter if the AW is in the car or not if the gangbangers think it is! LEOs have enough to worry about at work to expect them to put that burden on their family too.

LEOs do a hard and dangerous job and a lot of time don't get enough credit.

One last thing...California is close enough to a police state already, I don't think we really need them running around like the IDF>
Usually, criminal guns pointed at innocents = crime in progress, which puts us squarely into cop territory (standing by for Supreme Court citations to the contrary). If a trained LEO were to successfully intervene with a personally-owed weapon, those innocents would de facto have the benefit of having been protected. If your opinion is that LEOs have only ulterior motives for purchasing otherwise banned firearms, my opinion is that you are paranoid and maybe a little jealous.

So some police officers get real rifles. If we play our collective cards correctly, we could be next. Why not be a glass-half-full kind of guy?

One last thing...there is so much real estate between a state with overly restrictive firearms laws and a state in which the military decides when you can walk the streets that you could probably put in 10,000 Bass Pro shops end-to-end and still have enough room left over for.....okay, I lost control of my metaphor. Hopefully, you get the idea.
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  #130  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:41 PM
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Usually, criminal guns pointed at innocents = crime in progress, which puts us squarely into cop territory (standing by for Supreme Court citations to the contrary). If a trained LEO were to successfully intervene with a personally-owed weapon, those innocents would de facto have the benefit of having been protected. If your opinion is that LEOs have only ulterior motives for purchasing otherwise banned firearms, my opinion is that you are paranoid and maybe a little jealous.
Personally I am huge fan of law enforcement. Not jealous of them at all and I have no problem with them having AW either. If that is what they need to put the crooks behind bars, so be it. I did not say that I thought that they were buying their AWs for ulterior motives either.

Every situation that LEOs face are different and how they choose to react to them is their choice. A LEO in civilian clothes pulling out a gun in your above mentioned situation could possibly get the "innocent person" shot. If there are uniformed officers by that hear a gun fight start between your "criminal and plain clothed LEO", there is the possibility that he may be shot by the uniformed LEOs responding not knowing that he is a cop too. I don't think that there are many LEOs out there who would stand by and just let a criminal shoot someone, but sometimes it is better to make a good witness. Bottom line is this, when guns are pointed at people in a life in death situation there are a lot of things to be considered and decisions need to be made fast. Obviously there are many things that you haven't considered.

I believe that many officers would selflessly place themselves in harms way to protect people, not because they have to, but because they want to.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...-Gene
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  #131  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 8200rpm View Post
When did I ever advocate "dragging" an AR-15 "around everywhere you go" to play cop???

You really don't get it do you?

Reread my post and you'll soon realize that you are really arguing with your own imagination.

Here are two other sign posts for you to argue with...
  • Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606). [Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.]

  • Only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high. [George F. Will, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.]

Have fun.
You're right, I probably don't get it. But don't give up on me yet. So, if you and George Will aren't advocating civilians having a fully-functional AR-15 at the ready, but you think they are twice as likely to need them, and extremely likely to use them successfully in a crisis situation, what exactly are you (and George Will) advocating?

Maybe you and George Will mean that, since I'm a fairly competent shot at the range, I'm now fully qualified to use my (unfortunately neutered) AR-15 in defense of myself, my loved ones and and the general public in a variety of circumstances. BONUS!!! Maybe you and George can recommend a weekend-long tactical rifle class I could take that would completely obviate the need for trained cops in my area.

I'll take your word that your 14- and 16- year-old firearms statistics citations say what you say they say. George is really into stats. Mostly baseball stats. Mostly old baseball stats.

If you're going to hang your hat on stats, shouldn't you try to find some from a source that has no political bias? Admittedly, not as easy as citing a conservative literary luminary such as George Will, but you're a daisy if you do it. If the stats that he recycled to support his Newsweek column are from an unbiased source, cool. Cite it. And their methodology.

Even if you find less biased, more recent numbers that bear you out, we fundamentally agree that Californians need their 2A rights unf%cked. Difference is, I think that cops having relaxed restrictions under circumstance that directly relate to their jobs bodes well for the rest of us. You apparently feel threatened or slighted.
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  #132  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:00 PM
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Even if you find less biased, more recent numbers that bear you out, we fundamentally agree that Californians need their 2A rights unf%cked. Difference is, I think that cops having relaxed restrictions under circumstance that directly relate to their jobs bodes well for the rest of us. You apparently feel threatened or slighted.
I totally agree 100% that we need our 2A rights unf@%ked in this state.
I have nooooo problems with civilians owning fully functioning ARs.
I feel neither threatened nor slighted that cops are able to get things with less restrictions then me. I do have a problem with rest of the country being able to buy an AR-15/Hk-91/AKs ect... and I can't because I live in California.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
NFA is a long ways off as well it should be. Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...-Gene

Last edited by 5968; 10-10-2007 at 6:01 AM..
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  #133  
Old 10-10-2007, 4:49 AM
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In case no one mentioned it yet, the LEO AR's @ Metroshot are being sold equipped with Prince50's.
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  #134  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:03 AM
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It is a bad deal that the cops are allowed to not follow the laws we all have to follow. If they need one on the job the dept should issue one. If they are in a detail where they have to take it home then let them take it home. If they are a street cop that has one in the car then let them check it at the door with their shotty.

How much support will we get from the FOP if they have their own set of rules. If the rank and file police feel strongly enough they need of all officers to have 24 7 access to them they need to change the law to allow the tax payers to have the same access.
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  #135  
Old 10-10-2007, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Wrong. The paperwork I saw was pretty specific that assembling a rifle was not approved. By the way, there is no way a legit CA FFL will sell you a Colt or Bushmaster lower (for assembly later) before you have the department paperwork.
Comments:
  • A legit CA FFL won't sell you a *listed* Colt or *listed* Bushmaster receiver. There are unlisted Colt (and Bushy) receivers, and some of the former may be able to form some dept-approved rifles. Lotsa Colt LE guns appear to not necessarily have the gun's true model on the receiver (for example, LE1020s had Colt Elite-something receivers).

  • Listed guns/receivers can only be transferred by an FFL holding an AW Dealer permit.

  • An AW permittee won't give a listed gun to a cop until departmental/ DOJ permission comes thru.

  • For depts allowing variety of ARs instead of just one or 2 models, some are likely off-list. The assembly into AW configuration cannot occur (though delivered in compliant non-AW configuration) until the DOJ permission is issued - not just applied for.
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  #136  
Old 10-10-2007, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shumba View Post
Wrong. The paperwork I saw was pretty specific that assembling a rifle was not approved. By the way, there is no way a legit CA FFL will sell you a Colt or Bushmaster lower (for assembly later) before you have the department paperwork.


If you are qualified per the LAPD requirements (UPR Cadre or Metro), you complete the paper work, get a letter that you are approved to buy the personal UPR (AR). Once you have the letter, you buy a TOTALLY COMPLETE FACTORY ASSEMBLED rifle from a dealer such as Pro Force in Brea. You get your new factory rifle, register it with the CA DOJ, have it inspected by LAPD armory, qualify with it, and turn in your old LAPD UPR. Now your personal rifle can be used for duty.

Also, if you already own a registed AW that is on the approved LAPD list, you can designate it as your personal duty UPR. Still need to have it inspected, qualify with it, and turn in old LAPD issued UPR.

You are correct in that it really isn't that complicated.

By the way, if these rifles are treated as a registered AW when you are not on duty, then technically, it must be transported in a locked container to and from work. Now, try to find another LEO who would ever give an LAPD officer a hard time for not correctly transporting his personal/duty AR.
The rifles are already assembled....you just took off a few parts for the xfer....put them back on prior to handing to dept armor.....your not going to hand the rifle w/ the P50 on them to your armorer...

Since I am sure that Metro isn't a AW dealer like Pro Farce....
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  #137  
Old 10-10-2007, 11:58 AM
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Questions...

If the rifle is sold w/ a magazine lock and the buyer takes the lock off does it then become an "assault weapon"?

Does this constitute "manufacture"?

The law has an exemption for police owning and possesing "assault weapons", does it have an exemption for manufacturing "assault weapons?

These letters that allow LEOs to buy "assault weapons", do they also permit manufacturing?

If a dealer is not legally permitted to sell "assault weapons", wouldnt he be out of luck selling "assault weapons" to LEOs with the letters?

**on manufacturing**
If a dealer without a permit to sell "assault weapons" is selling compliant rifles to LEOs knowing they are to be illegally (assuming it is illegal to manufacture) converted to "assault weapons", what kind of position is that dealer possibly putting themselves in?

Just wanting to understand better what is happening, thanks.
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  #138  
Old 10-10-2007, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Questions...

If the rifle is sold w/ a magazine lock and the buyer takes the lock off does it then become an "assault weapon"?

Does this constitute "manufacture"?

The law has an exemption for police owning and possesing "assault weapons", does it have an exemption for manufacturing "assault weapons?

These letters that allow LEOs to buy "assault weapons", do they also permit manufacturing?

If a dealer is not legally permitted to sell "assault weapons", wouldnt he be out of luck selling "assault weapons" to LEOs with the letters?

**on manufacturing**
If a dealer without a permit to sell "assault weapons" is selling compliant rifles to LEOs knowing they are to be illegally (assuming it is illegal to manufacture) converted to "assault weapons", what kind of position is that dealer possibly putting themselves in?

Just wanting to understand better what is happening, thanks.
You are a thinker.......

There are people here that have been trying to understand this since 1989........or earlier....
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  #139  
Old 10-10-2007, 12:17 PM
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**EDIT**

Hmm... so, reading into the exemption...*FURTHER*.....(with the help of smart people)

manufacture is OK.

Moot point.. thank you.

Last edited by CavTrooper; 10-10-2007 at 1:08 PM..
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  #140  
Old 10-10-2007, 2:48 PM
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Just listed LAPD rifle (non listed - non AW) on the Commercial Sales site:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=71670
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  #141  
Old 10-10-2007, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
If the rifle is sold w/ a magazine lock and the buyer takes the lock off does it then become an "assault weapon"?

Does this constitute "manufacture"?
Yup.

Quote:
The law has an exemption for police owning and possesing "assault weapons", does it have an exemption for manufacturing "assault weapons?
Yup. 12280(h).

Quote:
These letters that allow LEOs to buy "assault weapons", do they also permit manufacturing?
Since these folks receive 'permits' (different than 'registered') for their AWs, that allows the creation/mfg/import/etc of an AW *after* the permit is granted as per 12280(h) PC:

PC 12280(h) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) (<<penalty provisions for illegal AW conduct>>) shall not apply to the manufacture by persons who are issued permits pursuant to Section 12287 of assault weapons or 50BMG rifles for sale to the following:

(1) Exempt entities listed in subdivision (e).

(2) Entities and persons who have been issued permits pursuant to Section 12286 or 12287.

(3) Entities outside the state who have, in effect, a federal firearms dealer's license solely for the purpose of distribution to an entity listed in paragraphs (4) to (6), inclusive.

(4) Federal military and law enforcement agencies.

(5) Law enforcement and military agencies of other states.


Quote:
If a dealer is not legally permitted to sell "assault weapons", wouldnt he be out of luck selling "assault weapons" to LEOs with the letters?
He can't sell an AW. He is not selling an AW. The police officer recipient buys a non-AW rifle. After he gets dept sign-off and then DOJ permit, he then can legally transition it into AW status (but not before).


Quote:
**on manufacturing** If a dealer without a permit to sell "assault weapons" is selling compliant rifles to LEOs knowing they are to be illegally (assuming it is illegal to manufacture) converted to "assault weapons", what kind of position is that dealer possibly putting themselves in?
Moot. The cops with permits are doing things properly.
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  #142  
Old 10-10-2007, 4:28 PM
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vikingshelmut vikingshelmut is offline
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I still don't understand why this isn't beneficial to OLL + maglock + evil feature owners. As stated above, the rifles are delivered to the buyer in CA compliant form (i.e. with a mag lock), and must remain that way until they get DOJ approval to convert it to AW. If the DOJ recognizes these non-AW rifles as legal for the officers to buy, doesn't that give us real proof of the legitimacy of reversible mag locks? Shouldn't that mean that they absolutely must acknowledge specific mag lock types as legal for us to use?
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  #143  
Old 10-10-2007, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psriley View Post
Usually, criminal guns pointed at innocents = crime in progress, which puts us squarely into cop territory (standing by for Supreme Court citations to the contrary).
59 U.S. (18 How) 396. 15 L.Ed. 43.] (1856). Yes, 1856. And lower courts have been using it as a precedent since. The police have no duty to protect individuals. Call 911 and proceed to die, because an officer is not going to jump in front of a bullet for you like Kevin Costner, Ms. Houston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psriley View Post
So some police officers get real rifles. If we play our collective cards correctly, we could be next. Why not be a glass-half-full kind of guy?
Police officers can also buy brand new "unsafe" handguns not on the DOJ roster, and full capacity magazines. Can law abiding Californians get any? NO. What makes you think AW will be any different? Answer: wishful thinking. Dream on.

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Originally Posted by psriley View Post
Difference is, I think that cops having relaxed restrictions under circumstance that directly relate to their jobs bodes well for the rest of us.
Once you start justifying possession of certain types of firearms for police based their job requirements, the same justification can be used to prohibit the same firearms from public ownership. This is the same reasoning used by gun control heathens. Why in the world can't you understand this very, very, very simple concept??? Why in the world do you think an LAPD officer has 15 rounds in his Beretta 92, but you can only have 10??? What's your answer?



Quote:
Originally Posted by psriley View Post
You apparently feel threatened or slighted.
Slighted? NOT in the least. I own a registered AW without a letterhead or a qualification from my employer. I'm actually better off than most LAPD officers in this regard. What I am deeply disturbed by is that you will continue to justify AW for police based on their "circumstances that directly relate to their job". This is a support for gun control! And YES, my civil rights are threatened by your line of thought.

Here's some light reading for you. My only I hope is that you abandon this line of thinking that cops should have AR15s based on their job requirements helps the rest of us.
http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm

Cops should have AR15s ALONG WITH the rest of us. But, you need to purge you mind of the "under circumstance that directly relate to their jobs" notion. This is dangerous. You need to understand this. That is why they have 15 rounds and you have 10!

If anyone out there can understand what I'm saying, can I get an AMEN?
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  #144  
Old 10-10-2007, 8:01 PM
tyrist tyrist is offline
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I do not belive Officers in the UPR cadre can purchase those rifles with the bullet button/ prince50 installed. The application for private purchase of duty rifle I observed and the FAQ which accompanied it stated that you can use your pre ban rifle if it was listed and already registered. Or you had to get permission to purchase one factory new. It stated you had to have the sellers information model number etc of the rifle you were going to purchase. I do not believe it allows you to pre-purchase a non AW rifle and then convert it to an AW. Since I would not want to send an application to the CADOJ with a non AW FFL selling me a weapon that I planned to convert into an assault weapon and already owned. Might get you a nasty visit and a possible court date.
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  #145  
Old 10-10-2007, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
I do not belive Officers in the UPR cadre can purchase those rifles with the bullet button/ prince50 installed. The application for private purchase of duty rifle I observed and the FAQ which accompanied it stated that you can use your pre ban rifle if it was listed and already registered. Or you had to get permission to purchase one factory new. It stated you had to have the sellers information model number etc of the rifle you were going to purchase. I do not believe it allows you to pre-purchase a non AW rifle and then convert it to an AW. Since I would not want to send an application to the CADOJ with a non AW FFL selling me a weapon that I planned to convert into an assault weapon and already owned. Might get you a nasty visit and a possible court date.
This is exactly why I'm confused. There have been conflicting reports as to what exactly the scenario for this transaction is. Most of the comments seem to indicate that LEO's can buy rifles w/o BB/P50, but that would then be an AW already.
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  #146  
Old 10-10-2007, 9:17 PM
PIRATE14 PIRATE14 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
I do not belive Officers in the UPR cadre can purchase those rifles with the bullet button/ prince50 installed. The application for private purchase of duty rifle I observed and the FAQ which accompanied it stated that you can use your pre ban rifle if it was listed and already registered. Or you had to get permission to purchase one factory new. It stated you had to have the sellers information model number etc of the rifle you were going to purchase. I do not believe it allows you to pre-purchase a non AW rifle and then convert it to an AW. Since I would not want to send an application to the CADOJ with a non AW FFL selling me a weapon that I planned to convert into an assault weapon and already owned. Might get you a nasty visit and a possible court date.
Already been done..........
There's no difference......walk into said OLL store ask for a S&W MP15 rifle serial number.....get # fill out dept paper work, take signed paper work to FFL get a lower part and a upper part....send in blue AW registration form w/$.....get AWR#....be happy...
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  #147  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:34 PM
Palchaser Palchaser is offline
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The state of california does have a legal provision that allows LEO's to own aw's for on duty/off duty use. The LAPD's rules are always stricter those of the state. The LAPD is still abiding by the rules set forth in the sunset, federal assault weapons ban. The LAPD will not issue a letterhead for an Officer to get an aw unless he/she has a primary duty assignment which uses that weapon such as Metro and other very few specialized units. I would estimate that about 5 percent of the department as a whole would qualify.
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  #148  
Old 10-11-2007, 12:18 AM
psriley psriley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8200rpm View Post
59 U.S. (18 How) 396. 15 L.Ed. 43.] (1856). Yes, 1856. And lower courts have been using it as a precedent since. The police have no duty to protect individuals. Call 911 and proceed to die, because an officer is not going to jump in front of a bullet for you like Kevin Costner, Ms. Houston.






Police officers can also buy brand new "unsafe" handguns not on the DOJ roster, and full capacity magazines. Can law abiding Californians get any? NO. What makes you think AW will be any different? Answer: wishful thinking. Dream on.



Once you start justifying possession of certain types of firearms for police based their job requirements, the same justification can be used to prohibit the same firearms from public ownership. This is the same reasoning used by gun control heathens. Why in the world can't you understand this very, very, very simple concept??? Why in the world do you think an LAPD officer has 15 rounds in his Beretta 92, but you can only have 10??? What's your answer?





Slighted? NOT in the least. I own a registered AW without a letterhead or a qualification from my employer. I'm actually better off than most LAPD officers in this regard. What I am deeply disturbed by is that you will continue to justify AW for police based on their "circumstances that directly relate to their job". This is a support for gun control! And YES, my civil rights are threatened by your line of thought.

Here's some light reading for you. My only I hope is that you abandon this line of thinking that cops should have AR15s based on their job requirements helps the rest of us.
http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm

Cops should have AR15s ALONG WITH the rest of us. But, you need to purge you mind of the "under circumstance that directly relate to their jobs" notion. This is dangerous. You need to understand this. That is why they have 15 rounds and you have 10!

If anyone out there can understand what I'm saying, can I get an AMEN?

I guess about the only thing I agree with here is your smilies. We appear to be at loggerheads here, but I'm going to give at least this much one more shot. Please pay attention.

A quote from your web citation (copyrighted 15 years ago):

"State and city governments -- rather than the Federal authorities -- are responsible for local law enforcement. So, only occasionally have Federal Courts ruled on the matter of police protection. However, in 1856 the U.S. Supreme Court declared that local law enforcement had no duty to protect a particular person, but only a general duty to enforce the laws. [South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed., 433 (856)]. The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives you no right to police protection. In 1982, the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, held that:.. there is no Constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution."

I will concede that under the U.S. Constitution, there doesn't appear to be any Federal legal obligation for a police officer to protect a citizen. There could be oodles of City, County and local agencies that have policies contrary to that, but I'll stipulate because I'm too bored and lazy to dig up contrary citations. So you win that one. Yay!

Look at the rest of the italicized letters, though. Now I'm no lawyer, but when a citizen is pointing a firearm at another citizen in a menacing fashion, I'm gonna stick my neck out at say there's a law against that that's gonna need to be enforced. That's the legal obligation. Sez so right on your favorite web site. The practical extension of that is, someone gets protected. There is a difference between a cop not rushing suicidally into a burning building to pull out a child and a cop refusing to deal with a crime in progress. Please say you get it now.

Now, show me on your favorite website where it says you, Anti-Che, have a legal obligation to do anything in a similar situation. Personally, I have no idea what it's like to roll into an armed felony in progress with shots being fired and legally have to do something about it, but I assume I'd want better tools than the bad guys (who probably all have maglocks, MM grips, and lo-cap mags).

If you were to roll into that situation, what would you do? Stay at a safe distance and call the guys with the expertise and the firepower? No, you don't seem like that kind of guy. I don't know you from Che Guevara, but you seem like the kind of guy who'd want to grab his registered AW and take care of business.

Now why is it so difficult for you to believe that some cops think the same way? Especially if it's their job, and they're trained to do it? I personally don't give a crap if they're protecting me or anyone else, as long as the felon with the gun goes away. And don't give me that "it isn't very likely" BS again, either. Is it very likely you're going to be in an auto accident tomorrow? Why pay the premiums?

Personally, I'm more concerned about pending and current anti-gun legislation and increasingly prevalent anti-gun corporate policies. A few police officers who are allowed evil features really don't stack up next to that on the old threat-to-your-2A-rights-o-meter.
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Last edited by psriley; 10-11-2007 at 12:20 AM..
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  #149  
Old 10-11-2007, 5:55 AM
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SFV_Dealer SFV_Dealer is offline
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Thanks Bill for the Penal Code clarifications on this issue !

Yes we can sell OFF LIST RIFLES in California compliant manner to any peace officer or civilian after passing a background check (DROS). This includes the new LAPD authorized models:
Colt 6721 AR
Smith & Wesson M&P 15, 15A, & 15T models

Note that for the 5-10% of the LAPD only Cadre and Metro Division officers who can get the letterhead and AW permit will be allowed to remove the California compliant 10rd mag & fixed mag lock.

Civilians, non Cadre/Metro LAPD officers, LA Sheriff's Deputies, state PD, federal LE, and local police officers who can purchase but will not get the letterhead nor AW permit will NOT be allowed to convert to AW - must leave the rifle compliant w/ 10rd mag & mag lock!

Here is what Bill said earlier:
Comments:

* A legit CA FFL won't sell you a *listed* Colt or *listed* Bushmaster receiver. There are unlisted Colt (and Bushy) receivers, and some of the former may be able to form some dept-approved rifles. Colt LE guns appear to not necessarily have the gun's true model on the receiver (for example, LE1020s had Colt Elite-something receivers).
METROSHOT SELLS THE COLT 6721 & S&W rifles which are off list!

* Listed guns/receivers can only be transferred by an FFL holding an AW Dealer permit.
METROSHOT does not sell listed guns/receivers! So please do NOT ask for the 6920 Colt or Bushys.....

* An AW permittee won't give a listed gun to a cop until departmental/ DOJ permission comes thru.
METROSHOT says that ALL rifles are delivered to the civilian or peace officer at all times as CA compliant mag locked 10rd rifle!

* For depts allowing variety of ARs instead of just one or 2 models, some are likely off-list. The assembly into AW configuration cannot occur (though delivered in compliant non-AW configuration) until the DOJ permission is issued - not just applied for.
METROSHOT as a historical note, has supplied the entire local city police dept with off list AR receivers for conversion into AW by each of their officers - their letterheads were all subsequently signed off by the Chief of Police!

This Calguns link on the Commerical forum lists prices:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=71670
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Last edited by SFV_Dealer; 10-11-2007 at 5:57 AM.. Reason: thread addition
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  #150  
Old 10-12-2007, 7:00 AM
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Hurry - - 2 Colt 6721 are now left -
10/12/07 update
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** AR 15 and AR10 off list CA compliant rifles **

Remember to support your local gun dealer in CA as they are a rare breed and subject to nonexistence!
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  #151  
Old 06-28-2009, 3:42 PM
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I know I am two years late on this thread ....

Does LA Sheriff have this same policy with AR-15s?

If not, any plans on implementing it?

A lot of talk about LAPD but no so much of the LASD...Both great departments in my opinion.
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  #152  
Old 06-28-2009, 3:58 PM
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wow.. nice dig of a necro post.. lol
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  #153  
Old 06-28-2009, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsta View Post
I know I am two years late on this thread ....

Does LA Sheriff have this same policy with AR-15s?

If not, any plans on implementing it?

A lot of talk about LAPD but no so much of the LASD...Both great departments in my opinion.
WTF? Why not just start a new thread?
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  #154  
Old 06-28-2009, 4:20 PM
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Odd, I never knew LAPD wasn't allowed to own AR15s...

I think just about every LEO i know has a Colt M4 with 30 round mags.
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  #155  
Old 06-28-2009, 5:33 PM
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Quote:
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I think just about every LEO i know has a Colt M4 with 30 round mags.
Personally owned or dept guns?
Recent purchases or did they have them since before 2000?
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  #156  
Old 06-28-2009, 6:06 PM
haodoken haodoken is offline
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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Couldnt the same be said for Military members as well? CA National Guard, Reserves, Active duty that live in the state?
Unfortunately, there are many members of the armed forces that have "questionable" backgrounds. You don't have to go through the extensive background/psychological checks LE have to go through to even be hired. Also since recruiting numbers are down (or were down), the military lowered some of the background requirements. Do you want someone like that to be running around back here with AWs? Over there...sure no problem. Here not so much. Don't forget there are quite a few gang members or associates that are in uniform as well.
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