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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-23-2013, 5:37 AM
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Exclamation Sunnyvale City Council to consider Ammo Restrictions

Just caught this Friday on the Sunnyvale City Council web site.

http://sunnyvale.ca.gov/CityGovernme...lMeetings.aspx

Mayor Spitaleri is going to consider ammo restrictions like the ones implemented in SF, LA, and Sacramento at the 26 February 2013 City Council Meeting.

The Agenda item is 13-051.

I'll be at the meeting.
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Old 02-23-2013, 5:57 AM
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Does he mean like the ones they keep passing in SF and keep having overturned in court because of preemption?
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Old 02-23-2013, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NotEnufGarage View Post
Does he mean like the ones they keep passing in SF and keep having overturned in court because of preemption?
I was thinking the same thing.

Doesn't preemption prohibit these laws and ordinances? We know they still don't believe the second amendment exists.
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I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?

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Old 02-23-2013, 6:14 AM
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Thanks for the heads up; I've put it in my calendar...
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Old 02-23-2013, 6:24 AM
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I spit on Spitaleri-La Pecora!
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Old 02-23-2013, 6:24 AM
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Does he mean like the ones they keep passing in SF and keep having overturned in court because of preemption?
My suspicion is LCAV, Brady, or the Vice Mayor Jim Griffith lit a fire under him to investigate this. I actually like Spitaleri but don't trust the council.

I'm detecting a strong agenda here, from Democrats and anti's, to overwhelm us with this crud.
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Old 02-23-2013, 6:50 AM
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If you attend, simply ask this:

I have seen a number of politicians offer up laws in support of more gun control, yet I haven't seen one law put forward that takes the guns out of the hands of criminals. These laws simply disarm the people and makes them defenseless, relying on police to keep us safe, even as police and fire protection is cut annually in local budgets. I ask you, when will you propose a solution to disarm the real threat: criminals who don't follow the laws you pass ?
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Old 02-23-2013, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
If you attend, simply ask this:

I have seen a number of politicians offer up laws in support of more gun control, yet I haven't seen one law put forward that takes the guns out of the hands of criminals. These laws simply disarm the people and makes them defenseless, relying on police to keep us safe, even as police and fire protection is cut annually in local budgets. I ask you, when will you propose a solution to disarm the real threat: criminals who don't follow the laws you pass ?
Good talking points. Thanks!
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:07 AM
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If this is like SF with the reporting on number of rounds purchased, it clearly has nothing to do with mass shootings. Shooters don't bring 500 rounds with them.

It is straight up social control / the mask fell totally off stuff.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:27 AM
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The question to ask is "will LCAV defend Sunnyvale pro bono if Sunnyvale is sued?"
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GillaFunk View Post
If you attend, simply ask this:

I have seen a number of politicians offer up laws in support of more gun control, yet I haven't seen one law put forward that takes the guns out of the hands of criminals. These laws simply disarm the people and makes them defenseless, relying on police to keep us safe, even as police and fire protection is cut annually in local budgets. I ask you, when will you propose a solution to disarm the real threat: criminals who don't follow the laws you pass ?
Once again, let me remind you that the decision will probably have been made by the council before the meeting. Public comments can be fun and stir the heart, but they don't change minds. Individual face-to-face meetings with council members before the public vote do that.

Make of that what you will.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:42 AM
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I'll be there - asking them not to waste my money, by triggering law suits they cannot possibly win.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisfong View Post
The question to ask is "will LCAV defend Sunnyvale pro bono if Sunnyvale is sued?"
Me like.

The answer, though, is "yes." The organization formerly known as LCAV has stated in the past that they would defend SF pro bono in case of litigation. They are a bunch of lawyers after all.

Let's see how far this goes...
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:18 AM
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Once again, let me remind you that the decision will probably have been made by the council before the meeting.
That's why the talk needs to be about the *consequences* of passing what they've already decided to pass, rather than the content of the bill.

The most powerful argument is, as mentioned by curtisfong, to bring up the cost of the lawsuit and discuss why their ordinance cannot stand. This includes bringing up how our side in court will look at the local crime statistics and unless this regulation affects it, the courts will strike it down once and for all. Bringing up preliminary injunction, state preemption, personal lawsuits for frivolous legislation (cannot pass in court, but can be used as intimidation much like Bloomberg wanted to sue manufacturers into bankruptcy), etc., is quite effective in demonstrating what kind of can of worms they are about to open.

The discussion on merits won't work. We know that. Time to show some teeth, or at least some snarling as a warning of what is coming.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:25 PM
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I've put in on my calendar and will try to make it. Tuesdays are tough since I have a late meeting at work on Tuesdays.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:37 PM
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No longer a resident of the city, but I know revolving Mayor Spitaleri is a douche, and the entire city council has been a "republican-free zone" for quite a long time.

He's in the pocket of the police/fire union, and does not put the interests of the residents/taxpayers of Sunnyvale as his top priority.
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Old 02-23-2013, 3:42 PM
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A good bit of info to have would be the figures on what it has cost municipalities to lose resultant lawsuits related to similar ordinances in the past.
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Old 02-23-2013, 5:06 PM
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A good bit of info to have would be the figures on what it has cost municipalities to lose resultant lawsuits related to similar ordinances in the past.
I'll see if I can find something
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:25 PM
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Me like.

The answer, though, is "yes." The organization formerly known as LCAV has stated in the past that they would defend SF pro bono in case of litigation. They are a bunch of lawyers after all.

Let's see how far this goes...
Can you document his? Please feel free to send me a PM or email to Joshua.berger@ [at] calgunsfdn.org
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:35 PM
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A good bit of info to have would be the figures on what it has cost municipalities to lose resultant lawsuits related to similar ordinances in the past.
SF was around $800k
Chicago paid something similar.
Alameda litigated the gun show ban for 10 years only to concede in the end.
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Old 02-24-2013, 4:11 AM
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A good bit of info to have would be the figures on what it has cost municipalities to lose resultant lawsuits related to similar ordinances in the past.
Ah, but its not HIS money on the line is it?

You point out the costs of a lost court case,and his retort will be "if it saves one life,its worth it." Sometimes ,a dialogue with anti-gun governments is like trying to convince Hamas to recognize Israel.
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Old 02-24-2013, 8:25 AM
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Should public comments be allowed at the meeting, I will be prepared to comment on the first two items
Quote:
Prohibiting possession or ownership of high capacity magazines
Requiring a permit to sell ammunition, and requiring permit holders to keep sales logs
..., but I don't really have a problem with the third
Quote:
Requiring that lost or stolen weapons be reported to Public Safety
I, for at least one, would report stolen firearms the same as I would report any other property stolen from me. Am I missing something and is there a good reason for opposing this particular item?
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Old 02-24-2013, 9:05 AM
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I, for at least one, would report stolen firearms the same as I would report any other property stolen from me. Am I missing something and is there a good reason for opposing this particular item?
That's not how it works. If it did, we'd all be supporting it.

In practice, this only changes the burden of proof from DA to you - instead of DA having to prove that you provided a "crime gun," you now have to prove that you didn't.

As responsible gun owners, each one of us will report stolen firearm as soon as we are aware of it precisely in order to avoid any legal problems should it be used in a crime. So, currently, if you find yourself facing a DA it only means that you were not aware of the theft, yet if this law passes the DA can say "you should have reasonably known it was stolen" and the ball is in your court to show otherwise.

As far as criminals go, their guns are not registered to begin with, so not reporting them stolen has no effect since there is no trace back.
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Old 02-24-2013, 9:35 AM
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That's not how it works. If it did, we'd all be supporting it.

In practice, this only changes the burden of proof from DA to you - instead of DA having to prove that you provided a "crime gun," you now have to prove that you didn't.

As responsible gun owners, each one of us will report stolen firearm as soon as we are aware of it precisely in order to avoid any legal problems should it be used in a crime. So, currently, if you find yourself facing a DA it only means that you were not aware of the theft, yet if this law passes the DA can say "you should have reasonably known it was stolen" and the ball is in your court to show otherwise.

As far as criminals go, their guns are not registered to begin with, so not reporting them stolen has no effect since there is no trace back.
Very enlightening and understood. I will be prepared to comment on this point at the meeting as well.

Thanks IVC!
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:11 AM
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Ugh.. I'll be there. Anyone care to post up some talking points?

Think its worth calling the mayors office before hand?
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:39 AM
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Ah, but its not HIS money on the line is it?

You point out the costs of a lost court case,and his retort will be "if it saves one life,its worth it." Sometimes ,a dialogue with anti-gun governments is like trying to convince Hamas to recognize Israel.
That's the point. It won't save a life and it won't hold up in court. It will however cost Sunnyvale about $1M to lose the case....and they will.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:45 AM
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Very enlightening and understood. I will be prepared to comment on this point at the meeting as well.

Thanks IVC!
You're welcome - we are all in this together.

As a side issue, the "must report lost or stolen guns" types of laws are tightly related to the "stand your ground" laws in the way they operate in practice.

Any sensible person will avoid confrontation and will try to retreat rather than confront an unknown person with implication of unknown serious risks. A "duty to retreat" type of law only allows a rogue DA to charge you and put the burden of proof on you that you indeed tried to retreat. Thus, a DA who wants to stick it to the gun owner will end up arguing whether you had an escape route instead of whether your life was in danger AND you have to prove your innocence.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:47 AM
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Whether LCAV works pro-bono doesn't matter, SAF/CGF costs will still need to be paid by the city - after they lose
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:52 AM
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Can you document his? Please feel free to send me a PM or email to Joshua.berger@ [at] calgunsfdn.org
Unfortunately "no." From the legal perspective it's all rumor since, as far as I know, it has never been written down as the official policy. It might even turn out to be an urban legend, but I doubt it given that LCAV consistently files amicus briefs for free and the relative insignificance of such a position in their grand agenda.

As much as I hate to say it, this is one of those things that goes into the category of "I heard."
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BanjoGunner View Post
Should public comments be allowed at the meeting, I will be prepared to comment on the first two items

..., but I don't really have a problem with the third

I, for at least one, would report stolen firearms the same as I would report any other property stolen from me. Am I missing something and is there a good reason for opposing this particular item?
Sometimes people don't bother reporting stolen property... I think it is ok to mandate a stolen gun gets reported... as long as there is an expemption for if you didn't know (can happen with roomates; it is the only thing taken, and/or no signs of break in)... and/or the fine is reasonable and not mandatory (Oh, so you DO want to press charges on the weapon that stolen from you that you didn't know about.. but we just found on suspect A.. ok; yeah there probably won't be a fine.)..

On the other hand; the usual suspects try to take intent and reasonable out of these so that people won't own guns...

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:55 AM
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Whether LCAV works pro-bono doesn't matter, SAF/CGF costs will still need to be paid by the city - after they lose
What JDBerger is alluding to is a private organization providing a valuable service to a city "under the table," which can have implications of its own before this ever gets to the courts.
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Old 02-24-2013, 1:57 PM
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bump
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:20 AM
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Unfortunately "no." From the legal perspective it's all rumor since, as far as I know, it has never been written down as the official policy. It might even turn out to be an urban legend, but I doubt it given that LCAV consistently files amicus briefs for free and the relative insignificance of such a position in their grand agenda.

As much as I hate to say it, this is one of those things that goes into the category of "I heard."
It's one of those rumors that really needs to be tracked down.
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Old 02-25-2013, 5:09 AM
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Sounds almost like an homage to previous mayor Melinda Hamilton. I recall from the last round of Sunnyvale shenanigans that she was obsessed with the idea of recording ammo sales or something similar.
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Old 02-25-2013, 8:38 AM
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I'm a resident of Santa Clara but will still try to attend. This stuff is ridiculous.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:11 AM
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It's one of those rumors that really needs to be tracked down.
Found it. It's in the official LCAV document from 2010. PM sent.
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Old 02-25-2013, 4:58 PM
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Does he mean like the ones they keep passing in SF and keep having overturned in court because of preemption?
You mean like the laws that politicians keep passing that are obviously unconstitutional and should therefore result in their permanent ban from office?

How is it possible that someone who takes an oath to defend the Constitution upon taking office is able to work so tirelessly to defeat it without any consequences?
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Old 02-26-2013, 8:58 AM
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Ah, but its not HIS money on the line is it?

You point out the costs of a lost court case,and his retort will be "if it saves one life,its worth it." Sometimes ,a dialogue with anti-gun governments is like trying to convince Hamas to recognize Israel.
We really need to start replying:

"If it saves one, life, shall issue CCW is worth it as well."
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:07 AM
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edsel6502 edsel6502 is offline
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I plan to be there tonight around 7-7.15pm

I'll listen and report back.

The following is what will be talked about.

In the wake of the Newtown and other recent national tragedies, there is a
renewed effort by local, regional, and state lawmakers to consider what
measures can be undertaken to stop preventable deaths caused by gun
violence. The cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles and Sacramento are
currently considering local regulatory options. Although a lot of gun control
legislation is preempted by state or federal laws, there may be some areas for
local regulation. I would like to look at regulations the City could adopt related
to sale and possession of firearms and ammunition. Some possible areas might
be:

* Prohibiting possession or ownership of high capacity magazines
* Requiring a permit to sell ammunition, and requiring permit holders to
keep sales logs
* Requiring that lost or stolen weapons be reported to Public Safety

I am requesting that the Council direct staff to review the legislation being
considered by San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Sacramento, as well as our
existing regulations, and bring back for Council consideration a draft
ordinance, insofar as it is in the City’s control, to adopt restrictions on
ownership or possession of high capacity magazines, and other related
measures.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:33 AM
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oldrifle oldrifle is offline
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I'll be there. Are we encouraged to speak or just observe?
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