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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:00 PM
Moonshine Moonshine is offline
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a1c if you don't want me to "play into their hands" the a lets continue to be productive with this thread. I know a lot of other hunters who thought this "was a good idea" and think of me as a gun nut because i have some ARs and post on this board. Ratherr than a flame war it might be a better idea to give me the game plan to pass on so we don't all get screwed.
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  #82  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:02 PM
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Are we forgetting the Munich Agreement between Hilter and Chamberlain?

My recollection is a little hazy after that. Could someone please tell me what happened next?
Hitler Claimed that Polish troops mad an intrusion into Germany at a remote and obscure location. He then sent a large armored force into Poland and took it in about three days. Poland had a mutual defense treaty with France and France had one with England. Hitler made an end run through Belgum around the Maginot Line and the feces was in the fan.
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  #83  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
OK, instead of making this a flame war as obviously what I said appears to be offensive: educate me.

Obviously I don't get it, please spell things out so I get it.
Because it perpetuates the idea that there are "good arms" vs "bad arms". The distinction is artificial, as is the definition of "assault weapon". Any weapon can be misused, the arm excluded as a "hunting rifle" now will be redefined as a "sniper rifle" next time. But because the hunters are a subset of the gun rights population, they will lose the fight even more quickly on the next round. And there will be a next round, because these proposed laws won't make a difference, so the reaction won't be to reverse obviously useless laws, but to make them even more draconian in the mistaken idea that they just haven't gone far enough. Take a stand and fight it out when you have all of the gun rights people united right now.
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  #84  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:05 PM
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Someone do me a favor and provide me the short version of this that Incan share next time another hunter talks to me about it. A version that doesn't include WW-II stories, bans in foreign countries, etc. something I can explain briefly to a hunter who is upset about his rifle being banned and who want to call to demand an exemption list, because a lot of people I know are doing this.
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  #85  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:06 PM
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Let them wade through the briar patch!

Stand together, no exemptions. That is what got us the handgun roster. Exemptions are just buying out constituents so they can slice away your rights another day.
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  #86  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:08 PM
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Did anybody notice the statement Biden made about shotguns? Notice he specified "double barrel"? Notice he didn't say "pump"?

Ever wonder why?
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  #87  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:09 PM
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I think this bill as written is the end game all by itself.

If this actually gets passed (Everyone here should actually HOPE that it does....)

That is the end game. It will get an injunction, nothing goes into effect. Then it's a skyrocket up through SCOTUS which will have about no choice to clarify some things to these far overzealous politicians.

This - in time- will actually set back the anti gun movement 20+ years.

So... in the meantime, fight with letters, faxes, emails, tell every gun owner you know to fight as well. Join the NRA, donate to CGF and others.

And nothing more. No begging to hold on to some semblence of a "Right". Let them shoot themselves in the foot. Thats the plan. It's actually a pretty good plan.
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  #88  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Someone do me a favor and provide me the short version of this that Incan share next time another hunter talks to me about it. A version that doesn't include WW-II stories, bans in foreign countries, etc. something I can explain briefly to a hunter who is upset about his rifle being banned and who want to call to demand an exemption list, because a lot of people I know are doing this.
Very simple.

This year, "assault style" rifles get banned, and hunters get an exemption.

a few years from now hunters "sniper style" bolt action rifles get banned, rifles are restricted in power to something under a 5.56 because "nobody needs a gun that can kill in one shot through a bullet proof vest", scopes are banned because they "are not sporting" and "nobody needs to shoot a deer at 20000 yards".

as for a plan

Hunters can either get on board with opposing this law, or suffer under it the way the rest of us do, all an exemption list will do is delay their suffering a short while, and make the rest of us not in the least bit interested in their whining when they get their guns taken from them.

The end game for these people is 0 guns in private hands, take it from the matron B**** of the gun control movement herself Diane Feinstein

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Last edited by robcoe; 02-22-2013 at 5:19 PM..
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  #89  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Someone do me a favor and provide me the short version of this that Incan share next time another hunter talks to me about it. A version that doesn't include WW-II stories, bans in foreign countries, etc. something I can explain briefly to a hunter who is upset about his rifle being banned and who want to call to demand an exemption list, because a lot of people I know are doing this.
The fact that there was a need for you to mention a "hunting gun" exemption should have been enough of a clue that NO guns in civilian hands is the end game.
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  #90  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:12 PM
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Today's "protected" hunting rifle will be banned as a "sniper" rilfe tomorrow. They are grabbing, tell them no.
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  #91  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Obviously I don't get it, please spell things out so I get it.
Ok, let me try it this way…

Taking the "safe handgun" roster as an example since this clearly illustrates how gun rights are chipped away:
-when first passed, there was only one requirement needed for a handgun to get on the roster; IIRC, it was the drop safety test.
-later on, loaded chamber indicators were added as a requirement
-later on after that, magazine disconnects were added as a requirement
-still later after that, microstamping was added as yet another requirement

Do you see where this is going? They KNOW that cannot have an outright ban(the real goal), So once they "got the foot in the door" so to speak with the original roster requirement, they incrementally added more requirements, and more will be added until a de-facto ban is acheived. A de-facto ban has been accomplished with Gen 4 Glocks, as one example.

Now, let's apply this to exempting "hunting rifles" from a ban:
-when first passed, rimfires, Browning BARs(and similar), Benelli R-1s(and similar) are exempted from a ban list.
(oops, Adam Lanza put 4 rounds of .22lr into his moms head)
-soon after, .22s are added to the ban list
(it is "discovered" that Browning BARs fire a much more powerful cartridge than a standard AR-15)
-soon after, Browning BAR is added to ban list, as it is "too powerful" for civilian use
-a bit after that Benelli R-1 is added for the same reason
-etc...


As Librarian said above, a slippery slope.
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  #92  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:17 PM
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Next would be my "assualt steak knife" because it sheers thru meat faster than my "standard" steak knife. The whole thought of any lawful owners loss of their rights is just nuts. Just crazy times....ugh.
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  #93  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Well I guess I sorta get it... Just go all or nothing and double down. Is this the plan? We all gotta stick together on this because we're all getting screwed if just about any of this passes... Even the harassing crap like 5 cent a bullet tax.

And speaking of black rifles this is time #2 for me to get screwed on those... This time I'm not selling or moving out of state and I'm REALLY mad about the prospect of my hi caps being banned that I spent a hefty chunk of change on in the 1990s!!!
Good luck with that. The EBR guys are walking point and convinced that no one behind is helping. Through bitterness they are ready to throw competition shooters and hunters under the buss. We gotta work this out guys, or we are all SOL.
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  #94  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:21 PM
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NorCalDustin posted a version of this already, but it needs to be re-posted since the OP asked to be educated after it was posted, I think it was overlooked.


There's a lot of versions of this, I grabbed the first one I found:

First they came for the "assault" rifles, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "assault" rifles.

Then they came for the military pattern "semi automatic" rifles and pistols, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any military pattern "semi automatic" rifles or pistols.

Then they came for the "magazine fed" manually operated rifles and shot guns, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "magazine fed" manually operated rifles or shot guns.

Then they came for the "single shot" rifles, shot guns and revolvers, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "single shot" rifles, shot guns or revolvers.

Then they came for the last lowly .22 caliber rimfire rifles and revolvers, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any lowly .22 caliber rimfire rifles or revolvers .

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.



Why do you think EVERY politician says 'we respect' followed by the 2nd amendment, hunters and sportsmen? It's because the more they can divide us, the smaller their opposition.

UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE FALL!
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  #95  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
Good luck with that. The EBR guys are walking point and convinced that no one behind is helping. Through bitterness they are ready to throw competition shooters and hunters under the buss. We gotta work this out guys, or we are all SOL.
Agree with bold.

Disagree with underlined. I dont want ANY LAW ABIDING gun owner to lose ANY MORE RIGHTS.

We all need to stand together and take back lost ground.

Long hard road possibly. But as I say, this bill as written will be doing ALL OF US a huge favor in the end...
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  #96  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:28 PM
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I think the most basic concept which often is lost.....

As a Law Abiding, Legal Gun Owner... is the only way we should be viewed.

Do not try to catagorize us as

hunters
plinkers
competitors
self defense
whatever
whatever

We are all simply... Law Abiding Gun Owners. Thats it. And as such, we need to stay together as that group alone.
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  #97  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
Good luck with that. The EBR guys are walking point and convinced that no one behind is helping. Through bitterness they are ready to throw competition shooters and hunters under the buss. We gotta work this out guys, or we are all SOL.
The OP is a pretty good example of why we think that, cause according to him, hunters(at least the ones he knows) are not helping and are simply looking to sell us out in a hopeless attempt to keep their stuff a little while longer.

I am not willing to throw anyone under the bus, I will fight for hunters, competion shooters, plinkers, self defense shooters, target shooters and collectors alike, but I won't shead a tear for any of them when they lose out after refuseing to back the rest of us in this.
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  #98  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:32 PM
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+10,000 on throwing hunters under the bus. First thing that happened when I posted was not "here's why your idea isn't good" it was flames. Really inspirational... If you wanna bring hunters and competition guys into the fold be polite and explain with reason.

Last edited by Moonshine; 02-22-2013 at 5:34 PM..
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  #99  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
Good luck with that. The EBR guys are walking point and convinced that no one behind is helping. Through bitterness they are ready to throw competition shooters and hunters under the buss. We gotta work this out guys, or we are all SOL.
It's not that we're willing to throw anyone under the bus, it's that this is the sort of thing anti's cook up to divide and conquer.

The fact that there we term clique 'fudds' and 'mall ninjas' in the community is evidence of it.

Historically, EBR guys lose out because there are a whole lot of 'hunters' and 'sportsman' who support the second amendment right to hunt bambi or clays, but don't care about any guns but the guns they use to do that. Just about every big anti gunner I've ever heard of purports to be in that camp.

If you get an exemption to 'hunting' guns codified in law it takes away the incentive for the entire shooting community to get involved.

As has been mentioned this was demonstrated super well with the exemptions the Cowboy Action guys got in exchange for supporting the roster.

If we want to beat back legislation like this we need to present a unified front, cliquey BS needs to take a back seat.
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Old 02-22-2013, 5:36 PM
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Moonshine, here is one logical way to slice this pie:

1) Ask your friends if they feel their rifles are protected under the second amendment.
2) Then ask them why they feel like they need an exemption for a Constitutionally enumerated right.


If you wonder about the flame, it is because some have sold out the rights of others to save themselves. It is just like the Nazi collaborators who sold out Jews in order to have "privileges". Just like what you are proposing now.

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.

Last edited by penguin0123; 02-22-2013 at 5:40 PM..
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  #101  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:36 PM
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At one time I said a ban on Ar or aks did not brother me. Then I thought if the ban them what is next ? Now I look at this be s#%# is they will never stop. I say if u don't like guns then don't shot them LEAVE ME alone I love to shoot and reload hell the whole family loves it wife and son what I love is the ones that try to force their opinions on us are the ones that get mad when other people force opinions on to them . This will never stop . But with out the right to bare arms how do we keep the other parts of the constitution for are self and the next generation. No mater what laws we try to make u WILL NEVER STOP EVIL NO MATER WHAT YOU DO. Just like you can't fix stupid madness will never stop it has been here since the start of time and will be part of life till the end of days
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  #102  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:40 PM
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The OP is a pretty good example of why we think that, cause according to him, hunters(at least the ones he knows) are not helping and are simply looking to sell us out in a hopeless attempt to keep their stuff a little while longer.

I am not willing to throw anyone under the bus, I will fight for hunters, competion shooters, plinkers, self defense shooters, target shooters and collectors alike, but I won't shead a tear for any of them when they lose out after refuseing to back the rest of us in this.
I seem to recall the same hunters sitting on their hands during the whole "hound hunting" issue because they didn't use hounds, or felt hound hunting was somehow less cruel or moral than their specific hunting niche, so they didn't care. I recently read a few "hunters" commenting that the newly proposed STATEWIDE lead ammo ban for hunting didn't bother them because they use copper already. What happens when they start banning copper ammo beacuse of copper poisoning?

I hunt. I also have an EBR. And a compound bow. And lots of other things the same people behind this are scared of. My father hunts, owns no EBR's, and has semiautomatic monte-carlo stock rifles that WOULD be included in this proposed bill. He's smart enough to realize NO guns should be banned because it opens the doors to ALL guns being banned.

How many people here are aware blowpipes of ANY SORT are illegal in the state? Think about that long and hard. Blowpipes. A tube and a dart. If you think for one second something as benign as a blowpipe, when compared to even a .17HMR, has already been banned, you should realize the end-game oif all of this.
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  #103  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:40 PM
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I'm fairly certain this law is passing as is. Newton gave them the momentum they'll never get again and exempting anything just makes them look weak in the face of overwhelming pressure to go for broke. The only reason Feinstein even tried an exempt list was probably because she thought without it shed have an armed united front. That's my thinking anyhow, if Steinberg does add exemptions t will be because of backroom deals with moderate democrats.
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Old 02-22-2013, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lapsbpbep View Post
At one time I said a ban on Ar or aks did not brother me. Then I thought if the ban them what is next ? Now I look at this be s#%# is they will never stop. I say if u don't like guns then don't shot them LEAVE ME alone I love to shoot and reload hell the whole family loves it wife and son what I love is the ones that try to force their opinions on us are the ones that get mad when other people force opinions on to them . This will never stop . But with out the right to bare arms how do we keep the other parts of the constitution for are self and the next generation. No mater what laws we try to make u WILL NEVER STOP EVIL NO MATER WHAT YOU DO. Just like you can't fix stupid madness will never stop it has been here since the start of time and will be part of life till the end of days
How long before you start seeing news articles about people "manufacturing untraceable military style ammunition"?
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  #105  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:42 PM
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Mr Moonshine the next time one of your hunting buddies asks you about this, ask them what are they doing to prevent this from happening. Tell them about this forum and make dam* sure that they understand that if they don't get off their duffs the only thing that they will be able to take into the woods or defend their family will be a pea shooter. Tell them to read this forum and then decide for themselves what they want to do. Ask them if they are a member of the NRA or any of the great groups in Ca. that support what we all do regardless if it is hunting, competitive shooting, just going to the range or for family defense. Tell them to just GET OFF THE ******* FENCE if they want to continue enjoying this god given right. Oh, by the way do they have children that share their interest, if so it is even more important to do so.
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Old 02-22-2013, 5:45 PM
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+10,000 on throwing hunters under the bus. First thing that happened when I posted was not "here's why your idea isn't good" it was flames. Really inspirational... If you wanna bring hunters and competition guys into the fold be polite and explain with reason.
I think a lot of people read it kind of like I tried to state, rehashing old bad sentiment of hunters not helping at all when it comes to fighting. (My opinion only)

Many of us have tried to help hunters with the lead bans, condor crap, etc.. etc..

I dont hunt. Just dont have an interest in it. I however FULLY SUPPORT ethical hunters who eat what they kill, or for 'pest control' purposes. I'm not a fan of trophy hunting at all, but I wont say people cant do it... I wont throw them under the bus either, but I personally dont like that 'sport' unless they actually eat it.

I wrote Emails against the condor zone and lead bans on behalf of hunters.

I just cant understand why hunters cant get behind the rest of us law abiding gun owners.

Same with the NRA- How are there THAT MANY gun owners, and such a small number of NRA members?

But my opinion, why you felt attacked, was people were having flashbacks of hunters/cowboys throwing everyone else under the bus.

And that needs to stop. We all need to stand up, and stand together.
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  #107  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Silverone858 View Post
This is what happened in the UK and after all the "assault rifles" were all gone they went after the hunting rifles and shotguns.
Just look up England's gun ban on YouTube.
All the people who thought they could keep there duck guns were so very sad! I bet they wished they had kept them in spite of the law!
Think about it and stand with the rest of us future felons!
And if I recall correctly the British ban also includes air rifles.
Slippery slope doesn't even begin to describe the danger of Moonshine's proposal.
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  #108  
Old 02-22-2013, 5:55 PM
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So are we basically screwed now? I know of at least a few people who called and said they didn't support the bill and wanted exemptions... And I'm aware of people in other counties because it was talked about among a few guys I know who aren't active on this or other boards... Will Steingberg be like "wow these guys are awesome" and amend or is amendment more of a backroom deal process?
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:00 PM
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So are we basically screwed now?
I guess it isn't funny when your civil rights are under assault, is it?
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  #110  
Old 02-22-2013, 6:04 PM
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Sigh this round of bans Ill have 5 more guns banned. I'm tired of storing them out of state or selling so this will be my first time registering. Serious though how much impact do guys calling have if its only a handful?

On a side note re-reading some of these posts we're really putting some good ideas out there for a gun ban and we may want the mods to delete it and start a new one just focused on the issue of EBR guys, hunters, etc and why we should all stick together. Just sayin.

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Old 02-22-2013, 6:15 PM
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I'm fairly certain this law is passing as is. Newton gave them the momentum they'll never get again and exempting anything just makes them look weak in the face of overwhelming pressure to go for broke. The only reason Feinstein even tried an exempt list was probably because she thought without it shed have an armed united front. That's my thinking anyhow, if Steinberg does add exemptions t will be because of backroom deals with moderate democrats.
This battle is not about what a political group can pass, but about how to use what they pass to create the legal precedent we need to close the door on these type of attacks on our rights in the future.

Feinstein will not even get a vote in the Senate. It's a political game that she lost when her first ban didn't work at all. Not only that bringing her bill to a vote would be politically extremely risky, but it has a much greater chance of being struck down by the courts. Just look at the number of states that preemptively passed laws that AWB will not be enforced.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:19 PM
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On a side note re-reading some of these posts we're really putting some good ideas out there for a gun ban and we may want the mods to delete it and start a new one just focused on the issue of EBR guys, hunters, etc and why we should all stick together. Just sayin.
You'd be surprised how many there already are.

The reason you got such a harsh backlash to your original post is because what you have suggested and the 'divided gun owner' problem is something that pro-2A supporters have been dealing with for a VERY long time and anti-gunners have been focusing on exploiting for as long as I can remember.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:22 PM
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So are we basically screwed now? I know of at least a few people who called and said they didn't support the bill and wanted exemptions... And I'm aware of people in other counties because it was talked about among a few guys I know who aren't active on this or other boards... Will Steingberg be like "wow these guys are awesome" and amend or is amendment more of a backroom deal process?
This is just one of the bills. There are many legislators who are heavy on rhetoric, but uneducated on anything gun related. Sooner or later they will cross the line, much like NY did with the limit that effectively bans the "Heller revolver."

We don't want to help them, but we also don't have to worry about any specific bill since there are enough of stupid ones proposed all over the country. For example, no matter how careful CO Democrats were in trying to introduce a 15 round limit, if the NY's 7 round limit triggers a ruling that capacity limits are unconstitutional, it all goes down in flames.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:24 PM
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Lemme rephrase my question: was a couple phone calls asking for exemptions (a few other guys who don't own any AKs or ARs like I do said they did, he's their rep) enough to plant the seed in Steinberg's mind or is he as evil and set in his ways as Feinstein and going to ignore those calls and go all out on this thing?
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:26 PM
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Lemme rephrase my question: was a couple phone calls asking for exemptions (a few other guys who don't own any AKs or ARs like I do said they did, he's their rep) enough to plant the seed in Steinberg's mind or is he as evil and set in his ways as Feinstein and going to ignore those calls and go all out on this thing?
They ignore calls for the most part. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't harass the hell out of them with letters/calls.

However, calling asking for an amendment with hunting specific exceptions is just going to make them think that they can further divide us. If they did make your requested exceptions, then your gun owning buddies would support it.

That's bad for us pro-2A folks and will be even worse down the line when they continue to chip away at our rights.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:28 PM
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why are you advocating for divide and conquer?
THIS!!
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:29 PM
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Eventually he will go all out its only a question of when. You might dodge a bullet this year only to get it next year. Be aware if your Benneli R1 ends up on an exemption list it will be added next time there is a list. by trying to save your rifle you are destroying your ability to own it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Lemme rephrase my question: was a couple phone calls asking for exemptions (a few other guys who don't own any AKs or ARs like I do said they did, he's their rep) enough to plant the seed in Steinberg's mind or is he as evil and set in his ways as Feinstein and going to ignore those calls and go all out on this thing?
Short answer: it doesn't matter.

Long answer: we need to stand united and let Steinberg do what he pleases. It will have to be resolved in courts anyway, since he controls the legislators and we are protected by the Constitution.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:31 PM
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All I'm saying is that next time I see my buddies should I talk to them about calling Steinberg's office back and saying "we read the bill again and even with an exemption we wouldn't support it?" Or just forget about it because the calls are logged into some forgotten database to be ignored.
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Old 02-22-2013, 6:33 PM
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From the OP:

"....encourage them to make an exemption list of 'legitimate hunting rifles'."

I heard this term recently & seems to apply to the above statement:

" Today's exception becomes tomorrow's 'loop hole'."
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